Without ridicule...can someone pls help

PJeanfils · Post by **PJeanfils** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:05 pm

I hate to seem ignorant but I need some assistance.
Some of you may know me as "Cinnabears Forever Mommy".....
and thanks to this site, I have begun to heal after my loss. Thanks to all the kind words from members on this site.
Now I am in a dilemma. I decided the best way to honor Cinnabear was not to crawl up in a ball, rather find a new puppy to love. No-one will EVER take her place or have the place in my heart that she does, yet not sharing all the love I have would be a waste.
So....I started a search for another puppy. Yet when someone who shall remain un-named responded to my query, she/he became obviously irritated with me because I had explained to her I was looking for a female with somewhat of a snout as opposed to the others.
I explained that I thought it was considered an American Chow. Needless to say, she sounded off on me saying I could find what I was looking for anywhwhere, as it was not a true Chow. She went on to say there is only one true chow chow. BLAH BLAH BLAH
It was obvious to me she Breed her chow chows for "SHOW"....which there is nothing wrong with that. Except when you become ....well...we wont go there.
What I need to know is this: Can someone pls explain to me if her statement was true. There is only one true chow chow and they dont have "snouts".
Please pardon the ignorance. I only know I loved a little chow chow and I know I want one that was just like her.
I would try to include a picture.....but again....I am too ignorant and havent figured that out yet.

HemiCuda · Post by **HemiCuda** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:11 pm

okay i am no experts here, but to me all of the chows i know, snout or, not have alot of the same traits, in personality, or esewhere, i don't think one should have to look a certain way to be considered a " true chow", i see all sorts of other breeds that don't look ideal, but none the less they are georgous!!!
besides if all of our furkids looked the same and acted the same i think the site might be a little boring, along with the world.

i may be a little off topic but, if you love 'em, and they love you, who's to say that kind of bond can be found " anywhere"

,
good luck on your search!

Post by **chris** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:16 pm

well, there is an open faced chow chow.. (which is like Steel) and then there is.. and I think... THINK... its called a "closed face chow".. which is like Milly and Mable or Mandy's fur kids and Jake MontanaXmans chow... In other words it's the more squishy face. Some are rough coated, (again, like Milly and Mable.. those are Judy's chows if you wanna look for them here on the site) and then there is an English rough coat.. which is like Steel.. (my chow chow) and then there is a smooth... which is like chowdaddy's Lili... Lili is a beautiful example of a smooth chow. All the above chow chows that I have mentioned are all pure breads. There are alot of chow/mix's that you can't even tell what the other breed is in them.

Although, I do believe when it comes to "show quality" the judges are looking for the rough coat and closed face. I may be wrong in this, but I believe the origional chow chow looked like my Steel does and so many of the chow chows on here. I think they have been bread to have the squishy face. I thought I read that somewhere, and someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I hope this helps, but that is what I have learned not only from here but over the years. I have owned chow chows for 16 .. almost 17 years.

Post by **chris** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:20 pm

In any event.. if you would like our help in finding you a puppy.. .everyone here is more than willing to help ya out.. Have you looked in the chows that need a home section? Would you consider rescuing one? Alot of times there are "puppies" in there that need rescuing. The people on this site have been known to help with transport.

Now, if you really want a puppy and you are leary of rescue, that is understandable.. it happens, it's really nothing to be leary of, but some just really want a puppy. We are here to help ya.

JAYGOW1 · Post by **JAYGOW1** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:26 pm

Here is a link to the AKC Chow Chow page. The picture there has a Chow with a short snout, like Khon.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/chow_chow/index.cfm

The second link contains a composite drawing of a "Standard" Chow. It also has the short snout.

http://www.chowclub.org/is/CCCI-IS-NF.doc.html

Post by **chris** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:28 pm

Oh yes.. yes indeed... Khon is a rough "closed faced" chow.

(kiwani knows the proper word for that, if I am saying it wrong)

threedogjeep · Post by **threedogjeep** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:33 pm

English rough coat? haven't seen that term before

JAYGOW1 · Post by **JAYGOW1** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:37 pm

Here is a link to the video of the Westminster dog Show 2007, Chow division. It seems as if these Chows have the "closed" faces also. Seems funny that most of the Chows aren't black ! What are they thinking ??

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/vi ... sport|chow

Post by **chris** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:38 pm

I just learned that one. LOL... cuz Steel is a rough coat, but it isn't as long as Milly or Mables.. or alot of the other chows on here.

Post by **chris** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:39 pm

Notice in my signature.. the all to well know.. "tuck of the paw?".. chow trait I say.

Actualy, I tried to take a picture, but the other night.. Steel had BOTH paws tucked.. lol.. Ok ok.. sorry starting to hijack.

willowchow · Post by **willowchow** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:40 pm

I've heard someone describe Willow's muzzle as "moderate".

JAYGOW1 · Post by **JAYGOW1** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:41 pm

Here is a pic of the 2007 Best in Class Chow Chow.

What a GREAT looking boy !!

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:56 pm

Chris is completely correct in her description of the two types of chow faces. I believe Kiwani at one time posted pictures of some chows from the early 20th century and they had open faces.

I'm one of those people who like the open faced chows, I prefer an open face on all dogs, chows, pugs, peks, and on cats as well, I absolutely detest what they've done to some of the Persian cats. So the woman you spoke to is very mis-informed and you would think if she's a breeder she would know better.

Anyway, I got my pure bred puppy, (he'll be 9months old tomorrow) from a rescue, a lot of times rescues get puppy's. Janet just got Mr. Bigz from a rescue too. And many rescues have very young dogs, a year or so, or 6-12 months.

Not saying you shouldn't buy a pup if that's what you want, cool with me. But just giving you some alternatives.

Post by **jerryo** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:09 pm

You are not nearly as ignorant as the person you were talking to is. The flat face is a fairly modern fad being promoted by the "show circuit" people. If you go back even a few decades, you will see show Chows with a "snout", or as Chris said, open faced Chows. If you go back to the early part of the 1900s, the top Chows look very different than the current show style dictates. Does that mean that our Chows decended from non-Chows? That makes no sense at all. Ignore the ignorant.

Much happiness with your new snouted Chow puppy!!

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:21 pm

If their parents were both chows they are chows. In my personal opinion if they look like a chow act like a chow they are a chow. But

Chows started off with longer noses but over the years for show they have been bred for the shorter nose and shorter legs. To make this all easier to understand. If you look through out time this is true. However, when you run into show people they are going to tell you only show type chows are true chows. I don't think this is true since they are deviating from the original chows. However, I love the squishy flat faced babies too.

This is Alexandra with her chow approx. mid 1800's

Sigmund Freud with his chow in 1937

a 1950's chow

By the 1960's we had the current chows that range from the look of the first ones to the the current show chows.

And everything in between.

The colors is another topic that may come up. The "true" colors are black and red the cream, shadded, blues, etc. are dilutes of the two.

Here is a good link on colors and coats.
http://www.majestychows.com/colorandcoat.htm

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:02 pm

I liked Chows better when they use to have legs, Maybe they are trying to get Chows as small as the rest of the Non-Sporting group.

Who are these people that come up with these standards and the Judges should be reqiured to take drug test. Way to much Geritol.

So if you took this Prize winning Chow and put him in a Show with Milly and Mabel, Nanuk and Chi-Ching (with hair) those 4 would loose to this Chow? These old Judges need to start wearing thier glasses. His coat looks good tho.

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j37/J ... 658902.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:11 pm

Awwww, thanks Jeff!! Don't worry, Chi-Chings coat is growing back in and will look like a 'real' chow soon enough! (He would win even without his coat though, just cause he is soooo cute!)

zingara_princepessa · Post by **zingara_princepessa** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:28 pm

Hey Angie -

Thanx for the link...what a great resource.

Why would anyone purposely breed a dog to have a shorter snout when it is a direct cause of respiratory distress in so many other breeds? English bulldogs, pugs, frenchies, just to name a few....

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:33 pm

For the look. Kinda like those little hand sized puppet dogs. tea cup whatevers. That is horrible. They do not think about the dog they think about what they think is cut. Oh, look at the little Persian cat. Who cares if it cannot breath.....
I don't want to get too mean about it, but it is for looks. I think show quality dogs are beautiful, but I do think when it is to the extreme to cause breathing problems it should be stopped. That is just mean. Or weaning a dog down to make it easier to cart around etc.

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:07 pm

PurpleKisses wrote:Awwww, thanks Jeff!! Don't worry, Chi-Chings coat is growing back in and will look like a 'real' chow soon enough! (He would win even without his coat though, just cause he is soooo cute!)

PurpleKisses, I would give Chi-Ching the blue ribbon for those jammies alone. He is so adorably cute! I'm keeping an eye out for him next time I'm in Spokane

sit_by_the_beach · Post by **sit_by_the_beach** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:57 pm

A woman on my street owned a male chow. She bought it from a breeder in europe. She invited herself numerous times to go for doggie walks. Hers was the closed face kind. Short stubby legs, bad physical shape. Mind you he lived to be 15 years old. But he couldn't keep up with Luna, long legged, open face. Poor thing always huffing and puffing while Luna had a ball chasing squirrels, rabbits. The new style chow is o.k. for couch potatoes, not for me. I like a runner. The woman paid close to $4,000 for her chow, he came from a long line of champions. He was awfully cute to look at. The beauty god was kind to him.

Karin

Igor · Post by **Igor** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:03 am

PJeanfils your question is a very good one. The answer of the breeder was actually rude and ignorant. The type of a dog you describe is real chow, as real as other different types. There are many types of chow dog, different colors not universal faces. Which is very good, only such variety of types can survive for at least 2 thousand years.
What your breeder explained is just modern fancy in the world of chow ring. Which is very special world with huge influence of money, politicking and influential people.
Which would be OK if not that some of this fancy are just non healthy. One of them is too "closed face".
Most of the breeders eather BYB or strive for show ring. There is difficult to find somebody in between who breeds just for healthy dogs with good character.
And by the way character is very connected with body. If you put dog with insticts of hunter and guardian into a body which barely can moove many of them became unhappy and even agressive.
I'm sure you will find chow of the type you want, there are quite common just because there are "real" chows.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:18 am

Igor, I have a question, If all these big time breeders, licensed,certified and what ever are breeding for show and they are messing with genetics and striving for the ultimate show Chow and could care less about health and coming up with like you say a hunter in a non hunters body and basically ruining the breed then why wouldn't it be safer just to go to a supposed BYB... A typical BYB doesn't have the knowledge or resources to be messing with a Chows Genetics, all they are doing is taking two Chows and breeding for puppies to sell... Suppose I had two healthy Chows and I decided to breed them for income,I know nothing about breeding but I have two healthy adult normal Chows that will most likely have healthy puppies but now I am a BYB hated by the world becouse I am breeding. I would think it would be safer to just buy a Chow from me or someone down the street who is only breeding for income and not messing with the Chow breed then to go to a big breeder that is striving for show quality and messing with genetics.

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:14 am

Jeff, what you say sounds good, but the BYB does not check for health issues as will continue to breed animals who produce unhealthy pups just to make a buck. A good show breeder with do complete health checks and make sure not to breed to extreme.

There is also the genetic side of temperment. Aggression can be genetic, just as it is in people. (In people it is a generally a combination of genetic disposition and environment, the environment being the trigger). If you take aggressive dogs and continue to breed and breed them for generations you are going to have more and more aggressive dogs. Also, they generally do not take into account the close relationship of dogs and breed dogs who are close realtives creating new problems.

Of course not all BYB breeders pups will have problems. I know both Steel and Ivana came from BYB (Ivana is reg. but it was still a BYB) both steel and Ivana are mostly fine so far. As far as I know steel has only had an umbilical hernia, Ivana had that plus she has a low immune system and allergies. But other than that she is good.

bubba · Post by **bubba** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:09 am

you will notice on the breed standard

http://www.chowclub.org/

it says
his working origin must allways be remembered when assesing the true chow type

... excessive loose skin is not desirable , wrinkles on the muzzle do not contribute to the expression and are not required ..

look at this chow

http://lohanchows.com/ChowPedigrees/chow-viii.jpg

English\CH CHOW VIII, 10- -1890, RED \ Cream Shd, KC37,906 imp 1895
the first champion who the standard came from

or this one

http://lohanchows.com/ChowPedigrees/blue_blood.htm

examine the databases
http://www.netchows.com/BreedGuides/PedigreeDatabases/
and search your choes ancestors

they all go back to a very very few..
if i understand they all have the same genetics , it depends on what is expressed ..

keeping a good base of genetic diversity is imperative..

my guy, son of kings and emperors , when i broke him out of the show kennel could track turkey ground scent , air scent , and by sight at the last rush straight from 2 years as a kennel boy, he had never even seen the horse or the lama who liked next door ,, today his favorite ancestor is the Flying Duchman ..

to para phrase Plato

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

[Bubba ] thinks that[ the] perfect[ Chow] exists (although it is not clear where) and his own [chow]l would be a cheap copy of it.

if i found a complementary bitch for the boyo and bred a litter would i then be the abhored BYB ? or would i be honored as a preserver of valuable genetic material , i must return to the muses and seek enlightenment .