Here's one for the blame it on the breeders.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:00 pm

Genetic characteristics sort out randomly. So no matter what its breed or mix, an individual dog may be more or less allergenic, intelligent or healthy than another.

“When you cross two things it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to optimize what you’re trying to achieve,” says veterinarian Patricia Olson, president and CEO of Morris Animal Foundation, a group in Englewood, Colo., that funds research on pet-health issues.

“You can’t just say if I take this and this I’m sure I’m going to have a healthier dog; it doesn’t work that way.

bama · Post by **bama** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:06 pm

Jeff,
What's that song...?
"been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding".
I think that should be the BYB anthem!

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:11 pm

Actually I ment that for the ones that blame breeders good or bad, professional or BYB for everything that happens to a Chow, temperment or health.

If i'm reading that right i think she is saying even if you have two perfect dogs that dosn't mean your going to have a perfect puppy, and dosn't mean your not going to have health or temperment problems down the road.

Post by **chris** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:18 pm

Jeff&Peks wrote:If i'm reading that right i think she is saying even if you have two perfect dogs that dosn't mean your going to have a perfect puppy.

EXACTAMUNDO...

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:20 pm

Damn, now i have to find out what EXACTAMUNDO means.

Don't worry Chris, I know what it means, I just have to look it up to see if you spelled it right.

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:44 pm

Nutrition is just one of the factors which can optimize gene expression, by clicking off defective genes. You can thank certain breeders for de-selecting healthy genes by deliberately breeding for recessive traits and exaggerated features. Healthy genes can be de-selected to the point of ending up with a dead-end bloodline.

Sylvia · Post by **Sylvia** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:58 pm

I believe your quotes come from this article http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/17616672/

which discusses some of the misconceptions people have about the "designer" breeds like Puggles, maltipoos, goldendoodles, etc.

bama · Post by **bama** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:12 pm

I suppose I was assuming most folks understood more about genetics. That's why the song, flag Pole Sitta came to mind. I believe that is the name of the song I referred to earlier.
I just really like that song, it's great, so I gotta find some cause to attach it to!

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:41 pm

I don't know where it came from I just copied it from some people arguing about some breed of dog on graiglist. Sounded good,I never have agreed with the breeders, BYB or Pro's being blamed for every thing wrong with a Chow so I posted it.

Igor · Post by **Igor** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:44 pm

In my not very educated opinion, (I’m definitely not a specialist) “good breeders” with the best intentions created a lot of harm to the chow chow breed. Trying to exaggerate some features and many of them make modern chow so beautiful decreased genetic pools and created breed unfortunately prone to health problems. Look how different modern chow are from those of century ago.
Chows lost their utility and breeding push them even feather from it. I was amazed when found that chows considered in show ring as one of the slowest breeds in the “non sporting group”. And now many chow just not able to do what they did for at least two thousand years: to hunt and guard which easily makes them unhappy animal.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:56 pm

Sounds good to me, I agree, I'm just saying every problem a Chow has can't go back to bad breeding. Heart and bone problems maybe but not temperment and 50% of the stuff breeders get blamed for. Incase this is going to turn into a Breeding Discussion, we have all have been there done that, the score is 50% say its the breeders, 50% say it isn't. or it may just be me that says that, owell.

chowdad · Post by **chowdad** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:48 pm

George is our 2nd Chow Chow. We were only 20 years old when we picked out our first. We did our homework on the breed and it matched our desires for a companion and family member perfectly. We picked the most "grumpy" loner type puppy from the litter because his teddy bear looks made the personality seem "cute" to us. Well we kinda screwed up because we didn't know anything about socializing him. He turned out to be dog aggressive and it got worse as he got older, we thought keeping him away from dogs was the answer. NOT. It was a long and difficult learning experience. Our next puppy came from a loving friendly set of parents and sibs. We met them all and they had perfect personalities. So we got George and took him straight to every outdoor people place and dog park we could find. We purposefully introduced him to all kinds of people and animals, just like the books say to. Voila. He is a charm and a pleasure for all. I believe it is the combination of breeding and training that make it work. It seems foolish to disregard one or the other. We did decide to skip formal training altogether, we had bad experiences with choke collars, and trying to break the spririt of a young chow chow just seemed wrong to us. So he will not answer to his name unless he feels like it. Oh well.
My 2 cents

BigTrucker · Post by **BigTrucker** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:06 am

Amen...its like that with any dog...genetic defects can be in any dog whether its a pedigree or a mutt. Proper training and care are all we could do as pet owners. Whether you go to a breeder, rescue, or other...there are no garuntees that you will have a chow/dog without genetic flaws. Our society differs very much now as to when chows were hunters, guardians, or a food source in Tibet. They don't eat the same as they did back then. They don't even remotely live in the same enviroment as they did. In another 1000 years, they may not have tails or maybe walking upright :lol: ...and humans may only have only 3 fingers and a thumb :lol:

John

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:43 am

I think the only thing that makes a difference is what that breeder is going to do when something DOES go wrong with one of the pups. That makes the difference, to me.

Bart · Post by **Bart** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:39 am

There are no guarantees in life. I think we, as the consumer, have to be diligent in our research. Too many people see an ad in the paper, or find a "pretty" website, and they are hooked. Health, to me, is more important than looks. Before purchasing a pup, what testing does the breeder do? Hips/elbows/eyes/thyroid? And what were the results of these tests? If you don't know the history of the line you are buying, you have no right to blame the breeder when something goes wrong. I think we live in a society where people are too quick to blame someone else for their problems.
But yes, it is correct that 2 dogs that rated excellent in OFA tests can produce a dysplastic pup. And 2 dogs that rated fair can produce an excellent pup. (rare, I'm sure, but I'll bet it has happened) But the more research you do, the less surprises you will end up with.

mytwodoxies · Post by **mytwodoxies** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:49 am

That quote was from this article about designer dogs and I assume the person borrowed it

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17616672/wid/11915773/

I was really happy that the article encouraged people to seek out a shelter dog.

Post by **Auddymay** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:54 am

I like to think about genetics this way- a breeder that tests is like a rural road, and an indiscriminant breeder is like an urban road. Which road would you close your eyes and cross without looking? Sure, you can still get run over on a rural road, but the odds of getting across safely are alot better. Genetics are unpredictable, that is certain, but the haphazard breeder will produce more puppies that are genetically defective than a breeder who screens for the major defects.

A note of interest, I was going through some stuff from my childhood, and ran across a small book on dog breeds, circa 1963. Of course, I looked up the Chow Chow to see what it said in the description. The illustration was that of the open faced Chow, not the heavy headed types that are in my AKC book. In a matter of 35 years, the breed has made a significant shift in what is a desirable look for Chow Chows.

bama · Post by **bama** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:21 am

Auddymay,
I was so intrigued by your post, that I searched for my oldest dog breed book. It dates back, only to 1976, but it does show the chow as an open faced breed.

Back in the late '60's and early 70's my dad was a charter member of the Agricultural Departmenet's artificial breeding program. I learned a thing or two about breeding.
You are absolutely correct in your assessment of breeding practices. Genetics is a HUGE factor, not only in health and temperment, but physical features, as well as intelligence.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:01 am

I'm usually only talking about temperament issues when it comes to breeding but the way I see it, You have 3 Chows, Grover, Mr. Cheeks and the Colonel, These 3 most likely were breed in some downtown Ghetto Backyard with out any concern for breeding at all yet all 3 have perfect temperaments, love human attention, love getting groomed and can't get enough of people, they appreciate every bit of human kindness they can get.

Then we have Pekoe, Mr N and some others, they have had everything in life, good breeding, plenty of human interaction, spoiled as hell and expect the world to revolve around them. temperament problems all over the place. they don't like to be touched, they have a stroke if you try to get them groomed or to the Vets and nothing exist in life but them and their home and families, everyone else stay away

Its like kids, you have one kid born with nothing, is abused and neglected in life he appreciates every kindness he gets, then you have the spoiled child he has had everything in life, he appreciates nothing and has behavior problems. Has nothing to do with breeding.

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:12 am

For the most part, I agree that temperament is mostly the dogs personality and the way it is raised,(although breeding to socially happy dogs is probably the best start for any puppy) but for health and genetic issues.....that is strongly negotiable.

Post by **jerryo** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:16 am

Great points, Jeff!

You can add Sophie and Benny to the list of formerly abused Chows who couldn't be more lovable and gentle. Interesting that both are open-faced creams, totally wrong for the AKC, but perfect for CaioBella and me. I'm sure there are MANY more examples, but those were two that came to mind.

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:25 am

And Chi-Ching!! Coincidentally an open face cream too....

Princess · Post by **Princess** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:48 am

Genetics is VERY complicated. It's no longer as simple as Mendelian genetics.. you mix one with other and can predict what you'll get to the T, even the percentages. There are such things as cross overs in the DNA strands, they are rare but they do occur. It is also possible that a chow expressing the healthy dominant gene has a non expressed recessive gene that is bad which will show up in breeding. For example humans are diploid (2 same chromosomes), we get one from mom one from dad. Sperm and egg are haploid (1 chromosome), during meiosis the segregation of your two orginal chromosomes occurs. also cross overs result in replacement of one allele with another, you never know which 2 chromosomes will pair up and what is comntained within them... Basically it's complicated, the only way to prevent a chance of poor breeding is to do genetic screens, karyotyping etc. to ensure that both sets of chromosomes are good, they are all expensive procedures which are not readily available to everyone's use.. Maybe as that technology becomes readily available with a better price tag will be seeing some changes, but that's not going to happened anytime soon...

Temperment, i think, is very dependent on how the animal is raised. That's why socialization is very important.

Desi · Post by **Desi** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:16 pm

Genetics,mother nature's way of showing her sense of humor.
I have dark brown hair and dark eyes,so did my parents,so did my first husband and his parents.First daughter looks like him ,second daughter has blonde hair and blue eyes ,like my brothers.Dion was fathered by my second husband,who had blonde hair and blue eyes,Dion is a redhead with green eyes.None of the kids look like me,lol.

ChowChow.org

Here's one for the blame it on the breeders.

Here's one for the blame it on the breeders.

nature/nurture

chowdad