I Plead Temporary Insanity Last Night

Wollfie · Post by **Wollfie** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:07 am

OK, I know that I am running the risk here of being verbally “beaten up” and/or having the SPCA called, but I don’t care. Last night I was livid, this morning I am just still really mad.

There once was this girl who had a curl right in the middle of her forehead and when she was good she was really, really good, but when she was bad she was HORRID. This little girl is Zoe, our nearly 2-year-old female chow, was horrid last night to her “big brother” Wolfie. I was lying on the floor just a few feet away from them, when she did IT. I saw the whole thing. Wolfie was walking towards the kitchen when out of the blue she just decided to attack him (not the first time this has happened BTW).

I immediately started screaming “HEY”, jumped up and was about to intervene, when she stopped and backed off. However, at this point Wolfie was actually “crying” and limping and just wanted to get away from her into the backyard. OK, this is where it starts getting nasty. After shutting the patio door, I turned my wrath on her. I grabbed a pillow from the couch and went after her screaming “don’t you EVER DO THAT AGAIN!, and hit her with the pillow (she was sitting on the couch at the time). At first she was apparently stunned, then when I said, “GET OUT OF HERE”, and hit her with the pillow again, she opened her mouth just enough to show all of her teeth and started growling at me. Anyone with half a brain would have stopped and rethought the situation, however I plead temporary insanity, because that just p*ssed me off even more and I hit her with the pillow once again, screaming “DON’T YOU EVER DO THAT TO ME AGAIN”!!!!.

Well, she finally got it, and jumped on the other couch into the arms of her protector – my husband – who sat silently by the entire time. At this point, all I wanted to do was to get Wolfie into my bedroom and away from her. So, I opened the patio door so he could come back in, and apparently she became momentarily insane, as she attempted run past me out into the backyard. Another BIG mistake on her part. I blocked her, and then started chasing her back into the family room, where she once again leaped into the arms of my husband.

Wolfie was in so much pain that he had trouble just making it up to the deck. I thought for sure he wouldn’t be able to even make it to the first landing of stairs in the house. It took him twice as long, but he did make it (looking over his shoulder the whole time to make sure that the little Biotch wasn’t coming after him to finish him off)!

OK, I am ready. Bring it on. I realize that I did not handle the situation very well; however it reminded me of a “mother protecting her young”. I was never trying to physically hurt Zoe (or I would have grabbed something much harder to hit her with, duh!), I was just LIVID and out for revenge. I mean how stupid is that???? Have I learned my lesson? NO!. If it should happen again, I would probably do exactly the same thing.

Any comments on my bizarre behavior?

sit_by_the_beach · Post by **sit_by_the_beach** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:32 am

I don't think you need any one to comment. You know what you should and should NOT have done.

All you can do now is to find a solution to the problem. Find Wolfie a new home. Or find Zoe a new home. Or make up with Zoe. Take her for a long walk. Be her older sister. Why did your husband not intervene? He could have been the peace maker. I hope you and your husband will be keeping the peace between the two chows.

Post by **Auddymay** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:38 am

You lost your temper. You took out the frustration you feel about your situation on Zoey. Next time take the pillow to the husband, you will feel better and Zoey won't wonder why you are attacking her.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:06 am

Violence creates violence so don't be suppressed if it doesn't happen again, You just taught your Chow a good lesson Guess you don't have any kids.

Slammed in the head with a pillow then growls, Gee that's surprising.

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:26 am

Well...you know how you handled it was wrong and will do nothing to prevent such things from happening in the future. All you did was make Zoe scared of you and scared Chows are dangerous chows IMO. By the time you went after her with the pillow I'm sure she made no connection between the wolfie incident and your rage. Mom just went nuts and start hitting me and screaming at me while I was laying on the couch. I am sure she was trying to run outside to get to safety away from you.
I had two that fought...I know it is panic freak out time...I know you were mad at the one who started it but she is a dog which means she speaks very little english and doesn't connect the dots about events like humans do.
I would suggest consulting trainers...doing research...attending obedience..neutering/spaying if not already done...all sorts of things to get to the root of the problem. Proactive things to try and put a stop to the problem if possible. If it won't stop after you have tried productive techniques then keeping them separated or finding one a new home is your option.
Please try and remember that Zoe is a dog though and she will not understand your continued anger nor does she deserve to be the outcast in the house now. Her behavior is wrong but dogs live in the moment...she doesn't know why you are mad at her and staying mad her is not going to help and is just plain mean.

Chowmia · Post by **Chowmia** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:30 am

I think you know you reacted terribly. So no bashing from me. I have never believed in ever hitting a dog (or a child). The wrong message is sent and everyone feels horrible in the end. But the dog has no idea why...and the dog reacts...Take a deep breath, count to ten. Keep them separated until? But never hit a dog.

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:49 am

Well then I will!

Wollfie wrote:...I realize that I did not handle the situation very well; however it reminded me of a “mother protecting her young”....

So, in hindsight you see that, however, your quote above is stating that Zoe isn't one of your young - only Wolfie. So that gave you permission to act the way you did towards Zoe.

Wollfie wrote:...I was never trying to physically hurt Zoe (or I would have grabbed something much harder to hit her with, duh!)...

But you did and that is that.

Wollfie wrote:...I mean how stupid is that????...

STUPID!

Wollfie wrote:...Have I learned my lesson? NO!. If it should happen again, I would probably do exactly the same thing...

Then either you need a time out, get yourself into a support group with other ragers or you need to rehome Zoe. You found it amusing when Zoe was beaten up by two large dogs in the dog park and now you write that you would take the exact same stance if an incident like that would happen again. Geez, Carol. What in the world is up with you!

Wollfie wrote:...Any comments on my bizarre behavior?

Posting a confessional of your behavior and actions towards Zoe does not absolve you of your sin. It's time for you to reassess seriously on why you agreed on taking on a new chow. Because in my book, this display of rage certainly does not live up to the bargain you made with your husband two years ago.

Jeff wrote:Violence creates violence....

Carol, if Zoe is still alive when you have grandchildren, just pray that she doesn't snap one day because you snapped at her yesterday.

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:52 am

Re: "If it should happen again, I would probably do exactly the same thing."

Zoe has the potential to cause you some serious wounds, if this should happen again, and you being under the influence of escalating stress and rage chemistry have the potential to kill her someday. Once that stress/rage chemistry starts flooding, the rational part of the brain gets 'disconnected'. With your husband being the passive aggressive type, Zoe is more like his pawn. I remember the old posts about her being *his* dog, that Wolfie is yours, etc. I would consider his behaviors the real root of your rage. It's hurtful to think he would allow an elderly dog to be abused before his eyes and just sit there like a lump protecting the aggressor.

This kind of stress has the potential to ruin your health if you let it continue to gnaw on you.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:07 pm

I am not going to comment on the rest of your post - you know you did wrong and you state that given the same situation you would do the same again! So, there is not point in me saying a word!

However, regarding the quote:-

OK, I am ready. Bring it on. I realize that I did not handle the situation very well; however it reminded me of a “mother protecting her young”.

What I understand you saying by this is that Wolfie is your baby and not Zoe. But you took Zoe in - you made a commitment to her. When you take an animal into your home, you become responsible for that animal.

When you have children (human ones that is) you should not have favourites. You should love them all the same. That does not mean that you do not dislike things that each one of them do or that you like individual things about each one of them - maybe more that one of the others. They each have their faults and their good points. But you love them all the same.

Same with dogs - they deserve love and support and forgiveness.

So start of by forgiving yourself then sit and talk to Zoe. If you don't love her, she might do better in another home where people are prepared to really love her.

If you do love her - then start putting things right with her because she will surely be one confused chow girl.

But maybe she knows how you feel about her!

Over and out!

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:46 pm

Laura wrote:Well...you know how you handled it was wrong
I would suggest consulting trainers...doing research...attending obedience..neutering/spaying if not already done...all sorts of things to get to the root of the problem.

Its not the Chow that needs the help, the Chow just needs some guidance, Chow are Chows just like kids things happen. This is called anger management. I usually let everything slide and don't pay attention, you can tell by what I let Pekoe get away with but if my wife (wives) ever raised a hand or yelled at Pekoe or my Daughter in a fit of rage I would have Killed her, if it were Pekoe I would have killed her twice.

Forget the Obedience schools and help for the Chow its more like therapy for the owner.

fillyok · Post by **fillyok** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:49 pm

I'm with Judy. If you plan on keeping Zoe in the same house with Wolfie, then you need to make up with Zoe. Put your anger and stress aside and focus on healing both of you. If she enjoys walks, then you two should take one...a long one. I understand it's difficult to see a stronger-willed Chow attack another (especially if he's your favorite), but you must remember they're animals...not humans. Have you had her checked for a physical reason why she might be doing this? Maybe she needs doggy zoloft or something to wind her down.

I've noticed in my house (it's just me and the four 4-legged kids) that if I'm stressed about anything (I'm retiring in a couple months) that Ping acts out and gets a little crazy. She's attacked Tod a couple times. I yell at her to stop and then comfort Tod, but I never hit her. Right after I see that Tod is okay (he's a drama queen), I take Ping aside and actually talk to her about how she hurt Tod and how that's not nice. I may sound crazy, but I swear she understands.

Hang in there and take deep breaths.

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:59 pm

Well you are correct to a point Jeff. It seems there is a case of favoritism here and that Zoe is unlucky to be the 2nd dog added to the family and not the favorite. Can't play favorites with dogs no more then you can with kids.
BUT...to go along with the human issues here, living with fighting dogs is no picnic either so rather then screaming and hitting and being abusive with the aggressor she should seek avenues to help Zoe stop being the aggressor...avenues other then abuse. Bottom line here though is if this dog isn't loved and wanted and an equal member of the family then it's just a bad situation for Zoe to be in. She didn't ask for this. I am wondering what is wrong with the husband too. If mine ever did such a thing with my dogs (which he wouldn't) he'd be scraping me off his back!

Wollfie · Post by **Wollfie** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:42 pm

Jeff

Violence creates violence so don't be suppressed if it doesn't happen again, You just taught your Chow a good lesson Guess you don't have any kids

Actually I do have two kids (now adults). And no, I never spanked either one of them.

I usually let everything slide and don't pay attention, you can tell by what I let Pekoe get away with but if my wife (wives) ever raised a hand or yelled at Pekoe or my Daughter in a fit of rage I would have Killed her, if it were Pekoe I would have killed her twice

.

Am I missing something here, or is this just an attempt at sarcasm?

Zhuyos mom

You found it amusing when Zoe was beaten up by two large dogs in the dog park.

I can assure you that I did NOT find it amusing in the least. I vividly recall that incident. My oldest daughter brought Zoe into the “big dog” park instead of the “small dog” one. She said it was boring in there as there was only one other little dog. I specifically told her to pay close attention to Zoe as there was two big Russian Wolfhounds in there. In the 3 minutes it took for Wolfie and I to return to the opening of the dog park, I witnessed one of the Borzois pick Zoe up in his mouth. I immediately started yelling at my daughter (who was inside the park at the time, yet not paying attention obviously) to GO GET HER!!!. Thank God there were other people around the dogs at the time, and the Borzoi let go of her. Thank God that she wasn’t also hurt. Amused????????? Not in any way, shape or form. I was horrified, and take offense to your ludicrous statement.

Dogdad · Post by **Dogdad** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:04 pm

you made a mistake, we all do. I am sure you know there is a problem and will do something about it.

david

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:19 pm

Wollfie wrote:
Zhuyos mom

You found it amusing when Zoe was beaten up by two large dogs in the dog park.
I can assure you that I did NOT find it amusing in the least. I vividly recall that incident. My oldest daughter brought Zoe into the “big dog” park instead of the “small dog” one. She said it was boring in there as there was only one other little dog. I specifically told her to pay close attention to Zoe as there was two big Russian Wolfhounds in there. In the 3 minutes it took for Wolfie and I to return to the opening of the dog park, I witnessed one of the Borzois pick Zoe up in his mouth. I immediately started yelling at my daughter (who was inside the park at the time, yet not paying attention obviously) to GO GET HER!!!. Thank God there were other people around the dogs at the time, and the Borzoi let go of her. Thank God that she wasn’t also hurt. Amused????????? Not in any way, shape or form. I was horrified, and take offense to your ludicrous statement.

That certainly was not your tone at the time you wrote me about it. I could care less if you take offense at my *ludicrous* statement. Just don't take whatever it is in you to post what you did to Zoe and me expressing my opinion back to Zoe. I had your back when you first brought Zoe home and was having a hell of a time getting her acclimated into your lifestyle. But once you hit her, that's it. No thank you! So go hug Wolfie all you want but you've just embedded something in Zoe she will have in her forever. We all know about chows and their memories. Like I said before, pray that she does not give back the lessons you gave her yesterday at the wrong place and the wrong time.

chowfrnd88 · Post by **chowfrnd88** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:35 pm

I agree with Lou, Judy and the others and don't know what else to say that the others haven't said.

If this is an ongoing problem you should see a trainer who usues positive reinforcement or a behviorist who does the same. If it's not that serious, reading up on some other threads in multichow houselholds or some basic canine behavior books should help.

Did you look Wolfie over, how is he?

threedogjeep · Post by **threedogjeep** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:01 pm

You plead temporary insanity and then say that you will do it again? You say you are ready for the bashing but I don't know.......

janet · Post by **janet** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:21 pm

hey all. heres my 3 cents worth.
many dog experts believe that dogs live in the now. they dont dwell on past experiences. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A CHOW.
they have advanced memories. i dont know much about how zoe came to exist at your home, but what you just did to her, she will never forgive or forget it. perhaps, call me crazy, hold a grudge. one thing you dont want is a chow with a grudge.
consider yourself extremely lucky this time. if i were her i would have ripped off your hand before the pillow even touched me.
its like people who tell their kids not to hit each other and yet when they hit them the kid is supposed to think this is ok. im not saying YOU hit your kids. just an example.
dogs send each other signals all the time.
how do you know that wolfie didnt do something to set her off?? maybe not at that very moment, but like i said, chows remember everything. he could have instigated her .you dont know that.
you cant take sides with one in your pack. you have to treat them all equally.
wow, you asked for it by posting your "temporary insanity"plee.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:52 pm

Wollfie wrote:
Jeff

Violence creates violence so don't be suppressed if it doesn't happen again, You just taught your Chow a good lesson Guess you don't have any kids.

Actually I do have two kids (now adults). And no, I never spanked either one of them.
So then its only Animals and Husbands you abuse?

I usually let everything slide and don't pay attention, you can tell by what I let Pekoe get away with but if my wife (wives) ever raised a hand or yelled at Pekoe or my Daughter in a fit of rage I would have Killed her, if it were Pekoe I would have killed her twice.

Am I missing something here, or is this just an attempt at sarcasm?

.

Nope you didn't miss anything nor was there any sarasum. Like I said anyone ever did that to Pekoe or my Daughter they would be looking for a new place to live not telling the story the next day

There's enough nuts out there I sure don't need to be living with one.

chow fancier · Post by **chow fancier** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:04 pm

Your confession has really gotten under my skin. I keep repeating to myself that it is not my place to judge but it's not helping. And you posted this here, where you knew the members would never approve of your behavior, so you must have been expecting to be judged. You are NOT absolved of your guilt by confessing, by the way.

First of all, if Wolfie was hurt why on earth would you make him walk up stairs rather than put him in the car and take him to the vet? If you are so concerned about his welfare why wasn't that the first thing on your mind?

Do you even understand what you did to Zoe? The fact that you hit her "with a pillow" is irrelevant to her. What she saw was one of her pack attacking her for no reason. And since you outrank her in the pack, it's behavior she may choose to emulate. What you have done is increase the possibility that she will attack another, whether it's you, Wolfie, or a two year old child in your care. Shame on you!

I don't know the backstory that others here refer to but there is a very strange dynamic in your home if your husband sits back passively while one dog attacks another and while you attack a dog.

If you believe you will do the same thing in similar circumstances you should remove yourself from Zoe's life until you are able to control yourself. You are responsible for her just as you are for Wolfie. Once you took her into your home you assumed responsibility for her.

If you believe you can control your temper appropriately then you have two tasks before you.

Mend your relationship with Zoe. Others have listed ways to do this.

Then, heal the relationship between Zoe and Wolfie. If you haven't had Zoe throughly vetted to check for anything organic that might cause her aggression, do that now. Then either a behaviorist or a trainer.

Or you have to keep them separated at all times.

Lisa_D · Post by **Lisa_D** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:14 pm

I have been reading through the posts and I had to put my 2 cents in.
We all make mistakes but the important thing is to learn from your mistakes.
I am not so sure you have since you said you would do it again.
If you have more than one dog in the home, you cannot have favorites. You need to treat them equally. Equal love, equal playtime etc. If you show favoritism to one, that is just asking for trouble to start.
Chows are very smart and don't forget, so hopefully you can undo the damage that has been done.

sengeoz · Post by **sengeoz** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:15 pm

If I may make a suggestion, it might be worth considering discussion and eventual training for everyone (you, your husband, Wolfie and Zoe) with a canine behaviourist who specialises in (1) pack dynamics as well as (2) positive reinforcement.

What you have is Zoe who wants to be in charge. Obviously you don't see that as an option since that appears to be your role. Your husband is seen by Zoe as the pacifier, but that may or may not be a workable option in the overall pack dynamic. And Wolfie is happy to just be Wolfie; however if Zoe sees that she is in 4th place in the pack she may naturally be picking on Wolfie to usurp his place.

I am not on-line enough to comment fully on your /your husband's relationship with the dogs, but some initial suggestions are that you
* take over the feeding, grooming, walking, general care of Zoe;
* regulate and oversee the schedule for each dog separately and together, giving each one individual attention apart from the other and preferably out of sight of the other;
* if Zoe acts out again, rather than yelling (you are now being seen to be barking in a crazy manner) try to stay calm - if necessary "growl" NO or ENOUGH at both of them and as calmly as your adrenalin affected heart/mind will allow you - separate them - Zoe gets time out outside and Wolfie gets time out inside then after 15 minutes switch - keep doing this until both dogs have settled. If Wolfie has been injured, take him out of Zoe's eyeshot and tend to him. And for the next while (1-2 hours) pointedly ignore Zoe, but don't "fuss" over Wolfie though you can acknowledge him.

If they both know a down stay - put them in it for the duration of their time inside.

Also, look at undertaking some clicker training with both of them, but separately. If you start doing this regularly with Zoe, she will respond to you more & more.

But honestly, do consider getting in a trainer to help.

Mia · Post by **Mia** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:20 pm

It was a tough situation and scary to watch one of your kids attacking another. I have had that with other pups I have had. (They weren't chows.) And, I know that you need to make sure that they understand that it is NOT ok.

I have had animals every day of my entire life, chows for only 8 months and never had children. So, while I have had experience with animals, I have had none with kids. Every day is a learning experience with me.

It is important to build respect and trust. I rarely raise my voice - only in two instances - fear if they are running in the street or getting into a dangerous situation, and, panic if they are agressive with an animal, each other or a human. I can raise my voice and be firm and enforce discipline without expressing anger and without any negative physicality. Any agressiveness on your part introduces it into the mix.

If you are trying to keep them from being violent, you have to control it without being violent. Strong yes - you may need to be strong to separate them. You may need to have some tough love. Chutney goes into his crate when he is too nippy with Mia. But, no agressiveness, or you are telling them it's ok.

If you are agressive to one of the lesser pack animals, then you are showing them that it's ok for Zoe to be agressive with Woolfie.

It takes a lot of patience, it can be tough. But, they are babies (literally babies) with animal instincts. What is ok in their world and not in ours needs to be tempered and taught with patience and understanding.

Cara&Haley · Post by **Cara&Haley** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:18 pm

Interesting.
I have 2 girls, Haley is a sweetheart. She just hangs out, licks, and paw you until you pet her. Cara, on the other hand, is a little monster. Always zooming around, biting things, including Haley.

How I deal with it is that I give Cara more love, because I think she needs it more. Not to say that I love Haley any less, she doesnt need as much affection. Maybe if you take the time to bond with Zoe, likek many other here suggest, your situation will improve. Maybe she sees that you give all you have to wolfie and just wants some love from you. And since shes not getting any, shes taking it out on Wolfie. The 4 of you live in the same house. it doesnt work to say that Zoe "belongs" to your husband and Wolfie belongs to you. Packs dont work that way. Maybe you guys should try to be more like one family instead of 2.
I apologize in advance if Im making the wrong assumptions.
Just some thoughts...

Boogie and Linda · Post by **Boogie and Linda** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:51 pm

With having foster chows and dealing with different chow personalities in my home, I can tell you what looks like a totally unprovoked attack, never is. Most, if not all, of this kind of chow arguments in my home are because of jealousy. If one is feeling that another is getting something they aren't or being treated differently then they are, fights occur. If you are already feeling favoritism toward Wolfie then Zoe and Wolfie can feel this which makes her jealous of him and leaves him open to her attacks. There may even be other things that she is jealous of that you may not even be aware of that you do.

What you did by going after her after she had settled didn't do anything but probably make her more jealous because she doesn't know why you did what you did. This only means there will be more fights in the future. I would reccommend you and her working on bonding so that she feels more secure.

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