BUYER BEWARE!!!

WorknChowz · Post by **WorknChowz** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:09 am

Hello Chow lovers.
Although I have not been posting much as I have been very busy, a situation has come up that I feel I must warn everyone in Chows about.
I know it's difficult to find good Chow breeders and it's awfully tempting to trust someone many miles away from a beautiful website full of pictures of lovely fluffy puppies.

UNLESS YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO CAN PERSONALLY CHECK OUT A BREEDER, DON'T BUY!!!
I am thankful that I just happened to be 800 miles from home and near enough to an AKC, CCCI member, "Code of Ethics" breeder, to go see for myself and not fall for the facade on my computer screen.
What I saw was wretched.
Not only were the conditions filthy and overcrowded, but the cruelty I, and my friends witnessed was appalling.

The smell inside the home was overwhelming. Urine, urine, and more urine. Feces were minimal, but they had obviously cleaned up expecting our visit.

The puppies were filthy and wet allover with urine, except the one that the breeder expected me to take which she had all fluffed and perfumed. This pup was so frightened; she wouldn't move or even acknowledge my presence. She was stiff, shaking, and seemed petrified to move out of a "stack". This "breeder" kept repeating that this was a normal Chow puppy reaction and that "She'd warm up to me in a couple of days." As a behaviorist, I can tell you that these pups were traumatized, barely socialized at all, and acted almost feral.

The way this "lady" treated the pups was shameful..The one I came to look at hid under a piece of furniture along with a couple of others. The "breeder" began screaming at them, grabbed them by whatever she could grab, lifted them frantically yelping about three feet in the air, and THREW them (yes, THREW them) into the middle of the room! It was horrible and I will forever hear the echo of those pup's screams and never forget that STENCH!

There was an older bitch, in the room that made a quiet connection with me. I bent to let her sniff my hand and the "breeder", probably thinking I might want to buy her, GRABBED her by a handful of fur, yanked her out from under the table and made her stack for me. I wanted to comfort this sweet girl and so I pet her and found that the skin on her head and neck was covered in small scabs.

I could see nowhere on the property that the dogs could get any exercise, and the curtains were quickly drawn when they discovered me looking out.

This is NOT how dogs should ever be kept or treated! The fact that they happen to be Chow Chows, owned by a supposed COE breeder is all the more disgusting.

The unsuspecting out of state buyers of these overpriced puppies will undoubtedly have a challenge on their hands. They will be told by ignorant Veterinarians and Trainers that "Chows are just that way" and how will they end up? The ramifications go farther. Just this one breeder, with multiple litters (6+) shipped out every year is impacting our breed as a whole, perpetuating the belief that Chows are an unstable, untrustworthy, dangerous breed.

The only reason that I am not naming this "breeder" publicly is that there are forum members here that have purchased puppies from this "breeder" and I don't want to break their hearts like mine was broken when I went to pick up "my" puppy.

Breathless · Post by **Breathless** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:28 am

Don't you think they should know though. I sure wanna know the name of this breeder

I actually been to a bad breeder in Germany once. When I asked them to look at the dogs in their Kennels they wouldn't let me go outside, saying that it would only disturb the dogs if a stranger would go out there. They only showed me their cleaned up puppies and one older female. When I asked them for their 8 month old male they had told me about they were very reluctant to bring him in, but did anyways. Guess they needed the money bad. This poor guy was filthy, like he's never been bathed or brushed in his life. He also had a crippled ear. I read up on his earcondition and found out this could have happened by taking a big hit to the ear. Also I saw the breeder kick him when he thought the dog was going to pee inside the room. I also heard breeders do this on purpose to make ppl wanna save the doggies from their misery.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:18 am

If enough out of state puppy buyers are willing to know this, particularly the ones that I feel might be hurt by this information, I will disclose the name.

In fact, it may go a long way to explain any behavior challenges they might be experiencing.

I am sure that there are many "breeders" out there like this and if Chow lovers heed the warning that I posted above, all these types of "breeders" will cease to sell puppies.

And yes, there definitely was the temptation to "rescue" as many of the dogs as I could afford to, but that would just finance the horror for future generations...

jnk111 · Post by **jnk111** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:43 am

WorknChowz, I sent you a PM. If you could respond via PM that would be great. Thank you

I though my question was better kept to a PM.

Boggled · Post by **Boggled** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:32 pm

Hi,
I am about to go meet a little girl I am getting in a few weeks - There is someone else on here that has a puppy from them and has recommended them to me - but you have me so nervous (I can't imagine how hard it must be for you to get those pictures and smell out of your head). So Sad

!

Thanks for posting this (It's a good reminder for people). I am still feeling so guilty for not getting a rescue - and keep talking about it with my husband. It's just that most have recommended that we go the puppy route because we have a 4 yr old and want a new human baby also.

Breathless · Post by **Breathless** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:50 pm

Your dilemma sounds familier to me Boggled. You could always foster a rescue dog though until he/she gets a forever home.

Sojourner11 · Post by **Sojourner11** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:15 pm

I say lets create a blacklist and put these sickos out of business. Somebody with some web savvy can get us on the google search for "Chow Puppies" and lead them to our list.

Let individuals write reviews of breeders and let the buyer decide. If they can do it with a eating establishments and movies they we can do it with breeders.

Breathless · Post by **Breathless** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:05 pm

How about pming the name of the breeder to me at least. I don't have a puppy from a breeder so it's safe.
I like the blacklist idea very much. I've been searching the internet for reviews and never could find any. We could also make a "white" list for the good ones. Some things really gotta change

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:19 pm

The easiest way to find a good breeder and puppy and that show quality that everyone is looking for is to pay for the Show quality puppy and reputable breeder instead of looking for discounts. If your going to go to a breeder that sells Chow puppies at Wal-mart prices then what do you expect. If people stopped buying from them and only went to state licensed confirmed top breeders then the Back yarders would be out of business. Why not just go to the shelters, there are hundreds of purebred Chow puppies and adults that need a home. Just look at graigslist in your city, Chows. puppies and adults are being killed daily.

WorknChowz · Post by **WorknChowz** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:49 pm

Jeff&Peks wrote:The easiest way to find a good breeder and puppy and that show quality that everyone is looking for is to pay for the Show quality puppy and reputable breeder instead of looking for discounts. If your going to go to a breeder that sells Chow puppies at Wal-mart prices then what do you expect.

Ahem...There was NO "discount" here! Many, including the CCCI confirm that this is a licensed, club member, Code of ETHICS breeder!
This "breeder" asks and GETS $1200.00 - $1500.00 for puppies!

I agree, to go the rescue route if you possibly can, but there are those of us out there that would LIKE to show in AKC events and would like to own a purebred puppy out of KNOWN, healthy stock.
My point is that CRAPPY breeders DISGUISE THEMSELVES!!!

*edited to add; I have rescued more dogs in my lifetime than I can count. My last surviving rescue Chow is so genetically messed up that it breaks our hearts to see her struggle in spite of the medications she is on and the expert care she recieves. Right now her quality of life is good, but it does change very quickly.
I feel that I have every right to go the breeder route after all these years, and I am going about it very carefully.
Think about it, if no one supports GOOD breeders, our favorite breed, the Chow Chow, will go extinct!

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:04 pm

That wasn't directed to you personally but now that you mention it, I don't know anything about show quality Chows but the prices I have heard from top breeders are alot more then $1500, you can find Chow puppies all over Puppyfinders for $1500 so to me if $1500 is what you are finding on puppyfinders then that's Wal-mart prices but like I said I know nothing about show quality Chows. My Chow came from a rescue at two with 5 generations of papers a few trophy's and ribbons and she only cost $250, Actually the rescue was asking $150 but we got in a bidding war with another couple, I personally think the show of any Chow, Dog or animal is no better then a Zoo and the what ever it is that is being showed means no more to the owner then a hobby and what their friends will think. But again when I look at the big show breeders, not public parks or town events on the internet those Chows are way more then $1500.00.

As for the good breeders, that was my point, good reputable world class breeders that are proven and known through out the show world, if the show quality is what you are really looking for not the pennysavor or a good looking website.

Boogie and Linda · Post by **Boogie and Linda** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:16 pm

Just a correction. They don't sell pets on Petfinder. That website is for rescues and shelters only. I think you mean Puppyfinder.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:18 pm

Yeah that one, actually its puppy find, just me not reading again.

Corrected.

Post by **kingalls** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:20 pm

Can't these places be reported? Surely, other club members wouldn't want a puppy mill in disguise to be in their list of members. They wouldn't want to blemise the prestige of the club with this kind of member.
I don't understand - these places should have surprise inspections done.
I feel so bad for the bitches having to produce litter after litter and then to have the puppies ill-treated. Makes me sick and angry!

WorknChowz · Post by **WorknChowz** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:35 pm

kingalls wrote:Can't these places be reported? Surely, other club members wouldn't want a puppy mill in disguise to be in their list of members. They wouldn't want to blemise the prestige of the club with this kind of member.
I don't understand - these places should have surprise inspections done.

I have notified the clubs, and anyone else that I think will even take the time to read my letter.
You'd be surprised at the "requirements" that the different agencies will accept.
AKC is mostly concerned with paperwork and identification.
Most AC agencies only require that an animal has "Some food, Some water, and Some shelter and basic veterinary care."
The Humane Society in that state is not accepting any more cases for 2 to 3 weeks.
I am just hoping that someone somewhere can get conditions improved for these dogs and that we all do our best to educate people NOT to buy a puppy from someone you don't know unless someone knowledgable that you trust has VISITED the premises and given a recommendation.

WorknChowz · Post by **WorknChowz** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:12 pm

Jeff&Peks wrote:.... I don't know anything about show quality Chows but the prices I have heard from top breeders are alot more then $1500, you can find Chow puppies all over Puppyfinders for $1500...

$1500 for a good quality pup from CH OFA,cerf, parents is common from good reputable breeders. Competitive show prospects are more, of course.
Good reputable breeders only breed once in a blue moon, and for a specific goal, NOT for the pet trade.
Pet quality puppies come from even the best planned litters and are sold to screened pet homes.
Good Responsible breeders do NOT advertise on PuppyFind or any other classified internet ads!
You are supposed to be able to find the good breeders by contacting AKC, the parent club of the breed you are interested in, and then individual members of COE clubs. I guess that's just a bunch of hooey.

Jeff&Peks, Who are these "Top Breeders" that quote such high prices?
I'm sorry you seem to have such distain for showing.
Showing your potential breeding stock to be judged against the standard and other members of it's breed to prove worthiness by attaining a Championship is to be commended. Breeding pets to pets is not.

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:45 pm

The problem with simply educating those who may be interested in buying a puppy is that without knowing who to look out for how will a potential buyer have all the information they need. AC professionals have cases where they know these kinds of breeders, move from city to city, state to state. Okay right now this woman has a house that is soaked with urine and stinks to high heaven. Sooner or later she will be forced to leave, so she'll take the dogs she wants to keep, any puppies she can still make money from and leave and go to a new location which will be for a time nice and clean. So someone looks at doesn't see too many problems, no smell, no indication of abuse or neglect and then buys one of these abused puppies. Why? Because the potential buyer didn't have all the information.

We need to have a list of these owners, we need to assist the SPCA in these cases, by having some facts on hand, and assisting them with getting tighter laws to protect animals. The SPCA and AC departments in this country can't do it alone, they are underfunded and understaffed.

At least tell us the state you are talking about.

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:52 pm

Boggled wrote:Hi,
I am about to go meet a little girl I am getting in a few weeks - There is someone else on here that has a puppy from them and has recommended them to me - but you have me so nervous (I can't imagine how hard it must be for you to get those pictures and smell out of your head). So Sad !

Thanks for posting this (It's a good reminder for people). I am still feeling so guilty for not getting a rescue - and keep talking about it with my husband. It's just that most have recommended that we go the puppy route because we have a 4 yr old and want a new human baby also.

Boggled if your breeder is letting you see the puppies this early then I think you're in good hands, this is the right way for a breeder to act from all the ones I've talked to. Also in your case getting a puppy is best so don't feel quilty, when your childern are older then you can think of taking in a rescue.

I love my rescue girl Firesong, have since the day she joined us when she was only a year old, but I never would have trusted her around young childern she was much too wary, not aggressive, but scared and if a four year old or a younger child had ever cornered her it wouldn't have been a good situation. There are times when a rescue is not a good choice especially when you don't have any history on them. Your situation is one of these times.

Boggled · Post by **Boggled** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:58 pm

Thanks Victory - I like hearing others thoughts - It helps me to make final decisions - I think too much

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:14 pm

Boggled, I was referring to Show Quality and the need for the perfect show biz chow, Who or what ever the breeder thos Puppies need homes also and like Victory says with a new baby a new puppy is probably the best way to go.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:31 pm

I hate hearing this .. no puppy should have to be in the situation described and yet we know it happens over and over. And unfortunately unscrupulous people have no problem signing a Code of Ethics. They don't care, as long as they sell their puppies and make their money.

But there are good breeders out there, too, and ones that should be supported by those of us who want to see the Chow breed remain true to its traits. We love this breed for the uniqueness of its looks and attitude, but without making sure quality puppies are produced the chow will become just like any other dog. So while rescuing is absolutely important and those who rescue deserve accolade, we must also be sure to support and encourage good breeding practices.

WorknChowz, I do need to know who this breeder is. I'm too active in the Chow world and have people asking me for recommendations in breeders and I certainly don't want to send them somewhere like that. I'll PM you if you prefer not to mention the breeder publicly.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

enchantedonyx · Post by **enchantedonyx** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:01 pm

Boggled wrote:Hi,

Thanks for posting this (It's a good reminder for people). I am still feeling so guilty for not getting a rescue - and keep talking about it with my husband. It's just that most have recommended that we go the puppy route because we have a 4 yr old and want a new human baby also.

Don't feel guilty! I know there are plenty of people in the world (and especially here) that only get dogs from rescue. My family has never gotten a pet by finding a breeder and picking out the one we wanted. But...I want a Chow puppy of my very own someday. Besides, by you taking this puppy, you are ensuring that she grows up in a loving, forever home and that's one less dog entering the world of rescue in a year or so's time. One more well-behaved, socialized, trained example of what a Chow should be, rather than dragging a year's worth of emotional baggage through the rest of her life (I wonder some days what Tess would be like now, had we been fortunate enough to have her from 8 weeks, rather than 11 months. I am positive she wouldn't be so paranoid and timid).

Why shouldn't good Chow owners adopt from puppyhood and allow us to treat Chows the way they should be- not trying to clean up the mess others make out of the poor dogs?

*gets off soapbox and goes away*

Sojourner11 · Post by **Sojourner11** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:40 am

Maybe a stickied thread or section could be started just for breeders. If they are up to snuff let them step forward and be judged. For those like the one mentioned in the begining of this thread they could be called out and named as "stay away". The bottom line is anybody can put up a nice website, showing good pictures with good marketing and naming a lot of AKC registered fluff and the unsuspecting wont be the wiser.

We owe it to all the Chows that have died and those sitting on death row to stop these pieces of human excrement from pumping out puppies for pure profit. It is simply a slave trade for which the victims have no voice. Lets educate the public to what to look for and what to stay away from. Hitting them in the pocket book is the only way to curb the practice.

sweetpea · Post by **sweetpea** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:52 am

I feel so bad for those pups. I understand your not wanting to say who the breeder is, but maybe if you'd just mention the state. Those who have gotten a pup from that breeder I'm sure would be heart broken to know their Chows might have had to go threw that same treatment before they went to their new homes, but it certainly wouldnt change how they feel about their chows. They would just be thankful their chow has a loving home now with them.

Boggled dont feel guilty. I did the same thing. I started by looking for rescues but I had never had a full blooded chow before so I worried about my very young grand daughters. I decided to take the route of a puppy. We do what we think is right for our family.

WorknChowz · Post by **WorknChowz** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:23 am

OK, I have PM'd the members here that I know purchased a dog from this person. I broke it to them as gently as I could.

If there are any others I apologize.

Now for everyone to know and please pass the word.

CANTON CHOWS in Milwaukie Oregon.

If anyone knows someone living near the Portland, Oregon area, please ask them to go look for themselves and report back.

Funny, if you look at the website, almost ALL the puppies are being sold out of state.
AND NOW WE KNOW WHY!

I pray that the result of my disclosing this publicly will be that at least this woman will consider improving conditions for her dogs. My fear though is that she will just cease to allow people into her home and continue mistreating and neglecting her dogs.