Rescue or Breeder?

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sengeoz
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Rescue or Breeder?

Post by sengeoz »

PurpleKisses wrote:
I have gotten dogs from the shelters, some had MAJOR health and genetic issues. I have my sweet Chi-Ching from a "breeder" who has so many problems, also health and genetic. We have ZERO plans on any dogs while we have Chi-Ching but after he is gone I think I will want another chow.

My question then being (as many many people have questioned before me) what is the right way to go, rescue or breeder?

From what I am reading...... of course there is no guarantee with rescues, and obviousely I would never go back to Chi-Chings maker, but honestly, how much higher would my chances be to get a healthy dog by going to a GOOD breeder? I ask that because I am seeing dysplastic dogs bred, dogs with over/under bites bred, entropian etc....... So, while I see the thought of "lets breed poor dog A with Great dog B and get good dog C" but would it not make more sense to take Great dog B and find a different Great dog A and hopefully get Great dog C??? Why try to "fix" problem lines vs. finding good ones to begin with??? I understand that there are always little things that you can "mix and match" to try and improve on, but I do not see where breeding ANY dysplastic dogs or dogs with bites can help at all?

When it comes time for me to find another dog, I need a healthy dog. I cannot go through this again. And while I am definitely an advocate for rescue, I would choose a healthy dog over anything be it from rescue or a breeder.

So, can one of the breeders on here answer any of my questions please?


Honestly, it begins with the prospective buyer doing their homework. I know I may get pilloried but I am of the opinion that individuals should reasonably take responsibility for their choices and being reasonable in their expectations.

Personally, I don’t think that there is a single right way. I do not follow the “you are either with us or against us” philosophy. It is a choice each person must make for themselves. Yet it should be an informed choice.

One very important thing to keep in mind, whether you go with a rescue or a breeder – Mother Nature makes NO guarantees - not with dogs, cats, HUMANS or any other animal – therefore, no breeder or rescuer can make a guarantee. Nevertheless, both the rescuer and the breeder should do the best they can to ensure that any animal they place is as healthy (physically and mentally) as possible and that the human providing the home is as knowledgeable about the animal and the animal's requirements as is possible.

SERIOUS VS NOT SO SERIOUS PROBLEMS
Please keep in mind that while some of the conditions mentioned that would preclude the animal being a “great” dog and would affect it’s overall health, some don’t. There was mention of an underbite or an overbite (or a drop ear or drop tail or spotted tongue or incorrect coat colour) – these are not serious or health threatening conditions and while a good breeder wouldn’t want to carry any one of them forward in a breeding program, it can and does happen and any puppy with any of these should have no problem growing into a great companion dog.

Entropion/Ectropion – there is a great deal of debate about this condition (which is NOT a disease but rather a conformation disorder of the eyelid muscle that can and will lead to eye diseases) – if it occurs in a baby puppy, that is one thing and is probably congenital and hereditary. If it happens in an older dog, it may well be due to other factors and while certainly not ideal can be remedied with relatively minor surgery (plastic surgery – and ask yourself how many humans have minor cosmetic corrections made albeit mostly voluntary and from vanity).

Dysplastic – No breeder is going to knowingly go out and breed a severely dysplastic dog. There are gradiations in dysplasia and a very very mild, non-affective form in one dog may be used by a breeder to a completely non-dysplastic dog. Is this an ideal mating – no. Should a breeder disclose this course of action – yes. In some countries, a breeder is not allowed to breed a dysplastic dog at all or with a dog with a score above a particular benchmard, so it depends entirely on where you live as to what is allowable and what constitutes dysplastic.


RESCUE/REHOMING
I often recommend that people seriously consider rehoming an older dog. It is a myth that you MUST have a dog from the time it is a puppy in order to forge a bond with that dog. While it does mean that you have to have patience early on in creating a bond with an older dog, the plusses are great:
1. You avoid all the chaos – chewing, digging, house breaking, etc. that you must go through with a baby puppy.
2. You avoid all the basic training requirements.
3. You spend time building trust but your return is a dog that will be devoted to you for life.
4. You will have a pretty good understanding of any health and temperament issues as the dog will have been vetted before it is made available to a new home.
5. You are giving a Chow another chance, one they might not get otherwise.


BREEDERS
There are a number of reasons that people approach breeders for puppies and these reasons are specific to the individual.

When going to the breeder, it is really important that you do your research. And for goodness sake, don’t be in a hurry to get a pup, take your time learning what you can about a variety of breeders. Check them out; check out their dogs.

What constitutes a “good breeder” is a very broad question and it differs from person to person. However, you do want someone who is willing to spend time talking to you about Chows in general and their Chows in the specific.

You want someone who invests time in their dogs, who health tests, who is aware of possible problems in their lines - and there is not a single breeder (if they are honest with themselves never mind the puppy buyer) who has NO problems whatsoever. You want someone who will ask you as many questions as you may ask them. They are genuinely interested in what you can offer in terms of a good home for a puppy they have bred.

If you will go to this webpage: http://www.sengechows.com– then scroll towards the bottom of the page until you get to the link to The Reading Room – click there and then take a look under the heading of Before You Buy – there you will find links to some articles and a website that should give you some pointers about finding the right breeder: These include:
Buying a Puppy - Some questions to ask.
Choosing Your Chow Puppy - another must read!
Where to buy a Puppy - A Consumer's guide

And now, I would invite the assorted rescuers to provide advice as to what someone seeking to offer a new home to a rescue should do and know. And I would invite other breeders to offer their advice regarding what a potential puppy buyer should do and know.

Cheers,
Judith-Ann
Last edited by sengeoz on Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by Rowlee »

I know this doesn't have anything really to do with Judith-Ann's post but as you all know, being one of her puppy buyers, I can vouch for Judith-Ann being a wonderful breeder. Couldn't get any better than her =D= Most conscientious, knowledgeable, kind, clever, chow savvy person. All round fantastic person and breeder. =D= =D=

I am so glad she came into my life. The knowledge I have gained from Judith-Ann is enormous. I bug the crap out of her. I ring her and email her all the time and she ALWAYS has time for me. She has agreed to be my "chow" mentor and has become my friend. We could not have got a chow from a better breeder. Well, we could not have got a better chow in Wilbur.

Judith-Ann was completely upfront with me about any potential problems. I've seen the way she is with her chows, they adoooooooore her and she runs a wonderful, loving, but well organised chow home. :lol: (they get their dinner in age order, oldest first - Lilly down to little Finnegan now). It's unbelievable! Judith-Ann is always available for advice and help and I have phoned her about some ridiculous things at times :lol: :lol:

Jeff, I can vouch for all the "oldies" in the house. Generations of chows all together helping raise the next generation, it's wonderful. I can tell you all that everything she does, she does for the betterment and welfare of the breed. She's had some unlucky breaks with her breeding program but she just gets on with it. She WILL NOT BREED A DOG that has anything wrong with it that could be passed on to it's off-spring. She DOES NOT TAKE UNNECESSARY RISKS!!

Judith-Ann also does more than her bit for rescue as well.

As far as rescue v breeders well you all know I want a purebreed dog and have 2 of them. I will not apologize to anyone for wanting and owning purebreed dogs. However, as I have mentioned before, there is not a huge amount of rescue chows in Australia (particularly in Western Australia) and if I waited for rescue, I might be dead by the time one comes up. Having said that, I have told my local pound that should they EVER get a chow in to ring me and I'll will do my best to take the chow or find a home for it. I think it is a purely personal decision and NO-ONE should be criticized or vilified for their personal preference.

Keiko's breeder, Lesley does the chow rescue in Queensland and I have heard some heartbreaking stories from her. I find it difficult to read about/listen to these stories because it upsets me so much.

Sorry gone off the topic a bit here.

Sabina (President of the J-A fan club) :lol:
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by vicster605 »

Judith-Ann =D= =D= THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH I have been waiting a long time for someone to do this =D=
Now if those with additional info would add to it they could put a sticky on it so that NEW Chow people or people looking to buy or rescue could know whats IMPORTANT for them to know BEFORE getting thier new Chow.
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by Red Dragon »

sengeoz wrote:PurpleKisses wrote:
I have gotten dogs from the shelters, some had MAJOR health and genetic issues. I have my sweet Chi-Ching from a "breeder" who has so many problems, also health and genetic. We have ZERO plans on any dogs while we have Chi-Ching but after he is gone I think I will want another chow.

My question then being (as many many people have questioned before me) what is the right way to go, rescue or breeder?

From what I am reading...... of course there is no guarantee with rescues, and obviousely I would never go back to Chi-Chings maker, but honestly, how much higher would my chances be to get a healthy dog by going to a GOOD breeder? I ask that because I am seeing dysplastic dogs bred, dogs with over/under bites bred, entropian etc....... So, while I see the thought of "lets breed poor dog A with Great dog B and get good dog C" but would it not make more sense to take Great dog B and find a different Great dog A and hopefully get Great dog C??? Why try to "fix" problem lines vs. finding good ones to begin with??? I understand that there are always little things that you can "mix and match" to try and improve on, but I do not see where breeding ANY dysplastic dogs or dogs with bites can help at all?

When it comes time for me to find another dog, I need a healthy dog. I cannot go through this again. And while I am definitely an advocate for rescue, I would choose a healthy dog over anything be it from rescue or a breeder.

So, can one of the breeders on here answer any of my questions please?


Honestly, it begins with the prospective buyer doing their homework. I know I may get pilloried but I am of the opinion that individuals should reasonably take responsibility for their choices and being reasonable in their expectations.

Personally, I don’t think that there is a single right way. I do not follow the “you are either with us or against us” philosophy. It is a choice each person must make for themselves. Yet it should be an informed choice.

One very important thing to keep in mind, whether you go with a rescue or a breeder – Mother Nature makes NO guarantees - not with dogs, cats, HUMANS or any other animal – therefore, no breeder or rescuer can make a guarantee. Nevertheless, both the rescuer and the breeder should do the best they can to ensure that any animal they place is as healthy (physically and mentally) as possible and that the human providing the home is as knowledgeable about the animal and the animal's requirements as is possible.

SERIOUS VS NOT SO SERIOUS PROBLEMS
Please keep in mind that while some of the conditions mentioned that would preclude the animal being a “great” dog and would affect it’s overall health, some don’t. There was mention of an underbite or an overbite (or a drop ear or drop tail or spotted tongue or incorrect coat colour) – these are not serious or health threatening conditions and while a good breeder wouldn’t want to carry any one of them forward in a breeding program, it can and does happen and any puppy with any of these should have no problem growing into a great companion dog.

Entropion/Ectropion – there is a great deal of debate about this condition (which is NOT a disease but rather a conformation disorder of the eyelid muscle that can and will lead to eye diseases) – if it occurs in a baby puppy, that is one thing and is probably congenital and hereditary. If it happens in an older dog, it may well be due to other factors and while certainly not ideal can be remedied with relatively minor surgery (plastic surgery – and ask yourself how many humans have minor cosmetic corrections made albeit mostly voluntary and from vanity).

Dysplastic – No breeder is going to knowingly go out and breed a severely dysplastic dog. There are gradiations in dysplasia and a very very mild, non-affective form in one dog may be used by a breeder to a completely non-dysplastic dog. Is this an ideal mating – no. Should a breeder disclose this course of action – yes. In some countries, a breeder is not allowed to breed a dysplastic dog at all or with a dog with a score above a particular benchmard, so it depends entirely on where you live as to what is allowable and what constitutes dysplastic.


RESCUE/REHOMING
I often recommend that people seriously consider rehoming an older dog. It is a myth that you MUST have a dog from the time it is a puppy in order to forge a bond with that dog. While it does mean that you have to have patience early on in creating a bond with an older dog, the plusses are great:
1. You avoid all the chaos – chewing, digging, house breaking, etc. that you must go through with a baby puppy.
2. You avoid all the basic training requirements.
3. You spend time building trust but your return is a dog that will be devoted to you for life.
4. You will have a pretty good understanding of any health and temperament issues as the dog will have been vetted before it is made available to a new home.
5. You are giving a Chow another chance, one they might not get otherwise.


BREEDERS
There are a number of reasons that people approach breeders for puppies and these reasons are specific to the individual.

When going to the breeder, it is really important that you do your research. And for goodness sake, don’t be in a hurry to get a pup, take your time learning what you can about a variety of breeders. Check them out; check out their dogs.

What constitutes a “good breeder” is a very broad question and it differs from person to person. However, you do want someone who is willing to spend time talking to you about Chows in general and their Chows in the specific.

You want someone who invests time in their dogs, who health tests, who is aware of possible problems in their lines - and there is not a single breeder (if they are honest with themselves never mind the puppy buyer) who has NO problems whatsoever. You want someone who will ask you as many questions as you may ask them. They are genuinely interested in what you can offer in terms of a good home for a puppy they have bred.

If you will go to this webpage: http://www.sengechows.com– then scroll towards the bottom of the page until you get to the link to The Reading Room – click there and then take a look under the heading of Before You Buy – there you will find links to some articles and a website that should give you some pointers about finding the right breeder: These include:
Buying a Puppy - Some questions to ask.
Choosing Your Chow Puppy - another must read!
Where to buy a Puppy - A Consumer's guide

And now, I would invite the assorted rescuers to provide advice as to what someone seeking to offer a new home to a rescue should do and know. And I would invite other breeders to offer their advice regarding what a potential puppy buyer should do and know.

Cheers,
Judith-Ann
Judith-Ann, in regards to the bite, in some cases it is not a problem when the bite is off a little. Then there are those that it is a problem with, like Chi-Ching, he had to have teeth removed to live a somewhat normal life. I also bought a bitch from a "Top Kennel" here in the US, the bitch developed about the worst bite I have seen, and it went wrye too, she went to a pet home. So bad bites can be a major problem, and they seem to be pretty prevelant in this country, most likely from people breeding dogs with bad bites, like everything else they have done in this country, it is catching up with them.

Entropion comes a little down the list for me as a breeder, I am more concerned with the dog having good joints and being healthy overall first. I do try to correct any eye problems each time I breed, but if there is a close ancestor with entropion or PPM, I will breed into the line if the benefit outweighs any minor negative thing I might get, it's about the big picture. 8)
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by jacqui »

may I just add one important point ?
if you do buy from a breeder,please make sure your chow pup was checked by a vet before you buy them.
that was overlooked by a breeder that I dealt with and I think when people buy from a breeder they automaticaly think that the pup is checked and healthy.
Kito Feb 4, 2006 - July 1,2007
Kai Mar.15 2007 - Aug. 26,2010
And when my time comes I will not go alone for my Chows will be there to say "Welcome Home".
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by sengeoz »

Good comment Jacqui.

That's one to add to the potential list of what makes a "good" breeder -
* Ensure that the pup you are taking home has been checked by the breeder's vet and comes with a well puppy health card.


And one to add to the potential list of what makes a responsible pet owner:
* Ensure that you have your pup checked by your vet within seven days of bringing the pup home. Take the healthy puppy card with you so your vet can contact the breeder/rescuer's vet if there are any questions.


Cheers,
Judith-Ann
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by sengeoz »

Hey Sam,

The business about the bite - don't disagree that bad mouths are a problem for breeders and if you know you have it in your line, then you need to perhaps consider other options and a program to get rid of it.

However, for the general companion pet, an undershot or overshot mouth *usually* won't cause major health problems. Severe cases or a seriously wry mouth may actually be cause for euthanasia at a last resort. If the pup can't eat, then you are damning the animal to a rather fraught life. One hopes that a good breeder takes every step and action to ensure that they aren't placing a compromised puppy.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to give potential Chow owners (puppy or older - from a breeder or a rescue) some tips on what they should be looking for in either a rescue or a breeder. Hence the generalities.

If you were to come up with a list of what a potential owner should look for, ask about, do in their search for either a good breeder or a good rescue, rather than referring to anyone in particular (good or bad), what would that check list look like? Say, you were having to educate someone from another planet who would be looking in their own part of the universe, what are the most salient points you would seek to make, assuming the reader hadn't a clue?

Cheers,
Judith-Ann
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by sengeoz »

And to all you Chow loving folk out there who are neither directly involved in rescue or breeding, what are the things you would have liked to have known/had information about BEFORE you got your first Chow? What advice did you wish you had had? What questions would you have asked?

Please let us know - for those of us who are breeders, it's good to know what sort of information to give to people well ahead of time, even if we are seeking only to educate rather than provide you with a puppy.

For those of us who are rescuers, it's good to know what sort of information to give to people well ahead of time, even if we don't have the right Chow to place with you.


Cheers,
Judith-Ann
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by mrstu »

I did not realize that the misalignment of the teeth is something that is commonly seen in Chows. My Sophia has a terrible bite -- when I got her, I noticed that her top and bottom jaws do not line up -- she can eat fine though, although she is much shower in chewing than the puppy and will almost always have to spit out pieces of treats to break them smaller and then she can chew them. When the puppy was younger, she would always take what fell out of Sophia's mouth but now that she is older, Sophia does not put up with that any longer. I always tell Sophia, if you were human you would need braces... her little underbite, misalignment is quite adorable in my little girl right now just as long as it does not cause issues. Does the malalignment get worse as the Chow ages or are they just born that way? No history with Sophia cause she is a rescue.... any info anyone can share would be great.
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by Red Dragon »

mrstu wrote:I did not realize that the misalignment of the teeth is something that is commonly seen in Chows. My Sophia has a terrible bite -- when I got her, I noticed that her top and bottom jaws do not line up -- she can eat fine though, although she is much shower in chewing than the puppy and will almost always have to spit out pieces of treats to break them smaller and then she can chew them. When the puppy was younger, she would always take what fell out of Sophia's mouth but now that she is older, Sophia does not put up with that any longer. I always tell Sophia, if you were human you would need braces... her little underbite, misalignment is quite adorable in my little girl right now just as long as it does not cause issues. Does the malalignment get worse as the Chow ages or are they just born that way? No history with Sophia cause she is a rescue.... any info anyone can share would be great.
It can get worse as they age, or it could get better, can also stay the same. I all has to do with how the teeth on the side line up with each other. You should have the vet look at the canines real well when the adult teeth come in, they can cause a problem, like cutting into the upper or lower jaw. Puppies with underbites should be paid close attention to, it is possible for the lower canines to grow into the roof of the mouth.
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by sengeoz »

Let's add mouth alignment to the list of things potential Chow owners should look for:

* Be sure to ask the breeder if they have any problems with bites in their lines. When looking at puppies, check each puppy's mouth for the alignment of the lower jaw. A Chow should have a scissor bite; that is the lower front teeth should fit closely behind the top front teeth and the lower rear teeth should fit snugly into the upper rear teeth.
Look to see if:
  • the bottom front teeth sit further back from the front teeth (as opposed to snugly behind)- if this is so,then this puppy is "undershot" or has an "underbite"
  • the bottom front teeth sit ahead of the top front teeth - if this is so, then this puppy is "overshot" or has an "overbite"
  • the rear teeth do not align with the top rear teeth - if this is so, then this puppy has a wry mouth.
Be aware that any of these conditions may be relatively unimportant in terms of the over all and long-term well-being of the dog; however, if the condition appears to be excessive, then problems may be awaiting you and the dog in the future. Be sure to talk at length with the breeder about the condition and to what extent they may be willing to help if it is either excessive or gets worse in the future.
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by Chows5 »

If this is not the breeder's first litter one could ask if they may contact people who have bought puppies from them to see what their experience with this breeder has been like. They can also get a feel for the type of Chow the breeder produces by seeing previous litters. If you're dead set on a certain "look" you will want to consider one that is at last 6 months old or older if you can find a breeder willing to part with one that age.
Also, if the breeder does health tests and submits them to the OFA for ratings, each breeder gets a certificate. If you can't find the breeder on the OFA site don't just assume that they have not tested their Chows prior to breeding. It just may be that ones they have tested are ones they have purchased from another breeder and won't be listed under their kennel name.

Hope some of this helps,
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Re: Rescue or Breeder

Post by sengeoz »

Carolyn has made some really good points:
If this is not the breeder's first litter one could ask if they may contact people who have bought puppies from them to see what their experience with this breeder has been like.
In actuality, an experienced may often offer you names and contact details of "references" - people who have had a puppy from them and with whom they have established some sort of relationship.
They can also get a feel for the type of Chow the breeder produces by seeing previous litters.
Another way is if you have the time is to go to dog shows where the breeders' dogs are entered. You can see the dogs as they relate to the rest ofthe world. And you may get to see other Chows and other styles from other breeders. This will give you more feel for what might be available in terms of Chows, styles of Chow and breeders in your area.
If you're dead set on a certain "look" you will want to consider one that is at last 6 months old or older if you can find a breeder willing to part with one that age.
Also, it's worth keeping in mind that some breeders may "run on" a puppy for 6-7-8-9 months to see if it develops into the type of show quality dog they are hoping for - some don't and the breeder will then want to ensure that that older puppy is placed in a good home. Again keep in mind that it is a myth that it is necessary to have a baby puppy to develop a great relationship with the dog.

Cheers,
Judith-Ann
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Rescued chow

Post by maxie’s mum »

Hi,

we just rescued a 4 month chow chow, We took him to the vets who made it clear that she hasnt seen a chow chow in years. When doing a health check she found his teeth to have a undershot lower jaw.
she was very quick to tell us to get them removed this week, and to pay a hefty price of £1500 straight up.

im unsure if his jaw is that bad, he has no problems eating and doesnt stop, he just struggles with treats and will spit them out and break them down. but he doesnt seem to have any discomfort whatsoever.

Can you recommend if this is the best procedure? and right price to look at. I obviously want whats best for him, but sadly insurance doesnt cover this treatment….

and we have to get his eyes done too as his bottom lids are rolled. Theyre suggesting a stitching underneath to pull them down temporarily for £700- does this sound like the best procedure?

again, as mentioned he is a puppy, despite the constantly wet eyes, he is always happy with us🥺

please help….
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