Breeder Arrogance regarding Shumie's death

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:50 pm

"she was used to running free and not confined to the indoors"

You can't blame your self for that one either, Pekoe spent the first 2 years of her life living on a farm, all kinds of land to roam, then When I adopted she spent the next 5 years living in a downtown loft, no yard at all. What happened happened, your not to blame.

Post by **Auddymay** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:02 pm

Just a couple things, since I love the last word. This thread deteriorated to a playground argument. Too bad, since it should be obvious to everyone from the content that bloat is a complicated ailment not limited to specific factors.

When it is in written form erroneous statements are libel, not slander. Slander is verbal. In any event, it was unfortunate that Sam chose the wording he did, for Betty's sake. I hope that he was not being needlessly cruel, but it should stand as an example we should all read what we have written before submitting it.

Betty, I will reiterate that it is not your fault. You did not cause the bloat by living in a condo. Many puppies are flown without incident. Some die in transit. Hindsight is 20/20. You can't sit there and agonize over decisions past, or you will make yourself crazy. Have you considered that maybe Shumie's own physiology was the main reason for the bloat? Maybe her stomache wasn't stable, and no matter what you did, she would have bloated? There is a reason it is prevalent in certain breeds. Now, you would not blame Shumie for her bloat, would you? Of course not. Grieve your beautiful chowling, and know all our sympathies are with you.

pfordeb · Post by **pfordeb** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:02 pm

BettyBloop:

I am still so sad thinking about Shumie and you. I think you did everything right. Is there anything else we can do to help you?

I'd ignore all the bickering. It seems the two most contentious topics on this site are food and health issues. Maybe there should be one thread for people who want to debate the topics and another for people who just want information. If there is room to debate, that means there are no right or wrong answers (there rarely are in life).

Please continue to write and let us know how you are doing. No matter the side of the debate, I'm sure everyone is grieving with you.

Red Dragon · Post by **Red Dragon** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:32 pm

Auddy, thanks for clearing that up.

I am done on here for a long time, may never come back. If somebody wants to ask me something feel free to do so offline. I will not have some jerk or jerks try and turn something I said into something it is not. I wish everyone the best if you ever have a dog bloat.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:48 pm

Red Dragon wrote:Auddy, thanks for clearing that up.

I am done on here for a long time, may never come back. If somebody wants to ask me something feel free to do so offline. I will not have some jerk or jerks try and turn something I said into something it is not. I wish everyone the best if you ever have a dog bloat.

Why would you let a few people on a website take something away from you that you like, your letting people you will never meet dictate your emotions. It amazes me how people can let something one person out of thousands let a few typed words effect their lives and get so upset. I get mad when I think its effecting a Chow but what I say or what someone says to me, who cares, there is life outside the chat room. By tonight no one will even remember what was said and it will disappear from the new post. After I say something to someone they don't like I forget what I said or what the topic was 2 minutes after I said it then when they respond I think what the hell are they talking about. Give it 10 minutes no one will even remember it. Its dumb to get that upset and leave for good. Think I said the same thing to someone once before, they came back.

luvchows · Post by **luvchows** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:51 pm

Luvchows

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:16 pm subject: Purina Pro breeders club

Sam, are you part of Purina's breeder Club program? Is that why you feed ProPlan?

http://www.purinaproclub.com/

Red Dragon

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:37 pm

Luana, I won't even dignify that with an answer. What is this, "Cheap Shot Day".

Sam

That was an honest question. I don’t understand the “cheap shot” comment.

Boogie and Linda · Post by **Boogie and Linda** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:19 pm

AuddyMay, I was wondering if genetics had something to do with this as well. I see chows like Fozzie in the shelters who have been eating who knows what for who knows how long. I can't think of anything more stressful than being a chow in a shelter either. Fozzie had been eating rocks and dirt and other garbage yet he is still here.

This was a horrible thing to happen and yes we all definately need to be aware of the signs of bloat so we can get immediate care for our chows but I really don't know how much of this really was preventable.

This whole thread reminds of when poor Khon passed. There were arguments and blame placed and what we found out months later is that Khon's sister died of the same thing he did and it was genetic from bad breeding.

Shumie's mom, you may want to check and see if others in the litter have had the same issue. Even if they haven't yet, their owners should be alerted to look for the symptoms.

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:31 pm

Let’s see “I wish we had an emoticon for blow it out your rear, just for you Lou!”, those are fighting words in my part of town. Nevermind the comment about the fires in California since I live 700 miles away from that zone.

My splitting the thread was not to insight a fight or play the “bloat game” as someone put it, this site simply does not tolerate posts that are inconsiderate to chow parents who are in grief.

Bettybloop, I am happy for you if you are finding solace in RedDragon’s “words of wisdom”. That is all most of us members want for you. For you to find peace so Shumie can rest in peace.

As the first post on the thread, he owns it and can/could change the title at anytime. That was the title that came into my mind when I split the thread, so that’s what it became. I’m not taking it back. It is what it is. He’s free to change it if it is so offensive to him. But he said he’s gone (I think this might be the 3rd time he’s walked away and said he’s leaving). DaRn he’s gone, then he won’t be reading my ‘real life scenario’ bloat experience that many of the oldies experienced when I came home at 3:30 in the morning from the ER and started posting on this site that I just left Zhuyo at the hospital.

Since he contends “I don't understand and can't deal with a real life scenario”, for you newbies and for you Bettybloop, my boy started his bloating experience at 1:20am July 5th, 2003. I was awake and saw him suffering when things kicked in, went on this site to review if any of the symptoms were on Dr. Chow or had posts from members, then called the E.R. when it got real bad and I remembered the story of my nephew’s friend. Zhu was so incredibly weak and barely had the strength to walk to the car, then he collapsed on the sidewalk next to the car door. I couldn’t carry him in since he was dead weight and I was just 20lbs heavier than he was at the time. So I left him on the side walk and called my nephew who lived 10 houses up. My nephew was sick with the flu but came down with just his PJ’s on to lift Zhu into the car. We got to the ER at 1:50am. We were lucky because there wasn’t a lot of traffic congestion on Hwy. 101 from the post 4th of July firework programs that ended that evening. When Zhu arrived he was extremely shocky and had to be carried in. The vet sat me down and told me that she was real shocky and it was bad. She gave me the price range of $2000-6000. I was unemployed at the time, but I didn’t care about the money part of it, I cared about saving Zhu’s life first. He survived cancer, he’ll survive bloat. I said go ahead, even though it seemed more grave than promising. He survived the night and was scheduled for gastroplexy (when they sew the stomach to the lining of a muscle so it prevents it from twisting) that afternoon (1pm) with a specialist. He went through the surgery and was in critical condition since there were possible heart damage from the lack of oxygen when he bloated. He had to stay on a heart monitor for a couple of days with the possibility of having a pacemaker implanted, but we averted that when they diagnosed the abnormality they were diagnosing was a heart murmur and noticed that when I visited him, his EKG and oxygen levels would go to normal. No further surgery needed, just a little change in lifestyle where I was not to exercise him or walk him to exhaustion. After incurring the cost of a little over $6000, he was released, did fine, then all of sudden a month later, he bloated again - which mind you was extremely rare after undergoing a gastroplexy. Spent another $2000, followed his vet’s instructions and he lived to be 2 months shy of 15. And he was in my arms when he passed.

So, if anyone wants to accuse me of not understanding or being able to deal with a real life scenario of bloat is full of themselves. Oh, did I mention that Zhu also had cancer and survived two tumor surgeries early on? Oh yeah, I did. Pooh Bear had breast cancer surgery a year and a half ago.

Also, there are many threads on this site on bloat that are extremely informative. So I suggest if you want to learn more than use the search feature. The real information should be located in the health section.

Also Thank You for all your PM's and personal e-mails. Interesting choice of words in defining me as “arrogant”. That is laughable! But I'll take it, as a Californian it's a compliment.

chowfrnd88 · Post by **chowfrnd88** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:11 am

Whoa... here I am lost in my Special D Halloween thread, and then I see this thread.

It's taken me all morning to reply to this.

Betty, words cannot tell you how badly I feel for you. I sobbed uncontrollably when I read some of the things you posted, especially when you said that God took her back because you were not a good mom to her. I can't even type that without crying. Please, please, please don't even think that. You loved her so much and that was obvious from day one. Who was the one who posted countless questions about her and how to raise her the best way possible? That was you!!! We all know you loved her, you did everything you knew how for her. Don't blame yourself. Try to be glad that you had this time with her, I think she was meant to her spend her time on this earth in your loving hands. Let me know if you need anything, you'll be in our thoughts.

Lou, thank you so much for sharing that painful story about Zhuyo. You as "arrogant?!" that really is laughable, you're one of the sweetest, kindest people I know, arrogant is one of the last adjective I would ever use about you.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:03 am

I'm very sorry to hear of Shumie's passing. It's unusal to see bloat in puppies.

There were many valid bits of information given here and I wanted to comment on a few.

The idea of stress: dogs that are stressed have physical changes (just like we humans do) and those changes can heighten the possibility of bloat or other conditions. The body weakens somewhat under stress. A puppy from a breeder who doesn't concentrate on proper handling, socialization and training is going to be much more stressed than a pup that is properly handled. Raising puppies outside, in my opinion, is completely wrong. They should be in the house where they can be exposed to the normal sights, smells, movements, etc. of family life. They should be on several different surfaces, be introdued to dozens of strangers of all ages, sizes and colors, and be exposed to noises from classical music to pots banging on the floor by the time they go to their new homes. They should be kennel trained, have gone for rides in the car in individual kennels, been introduced to a collar and leash, had their nails trimmed, ears cleaned, teeth examined, etc. A chow puppy that is handled properly by a breeder should be outgoing, confident, energetic but not fearful.

Puppies that come from not-so-good breeders don't get these advantages, and then you have the puppies that are frightened, defensive, unsocial and sometimes even aggressive. This is pretty much 100% a breeder problem.

It's believed that bloat has some hereditary links, too, and finding out from the breeder if other dogs in her lines have bloated would be interesting (IF she'll even give you that info - many breeders hate to give out any info that might "dirty" their lines because they don't want to stop pumping out puppies for profit).

I have a chow that has a tendency toward bloat and I've learned a few preventative measures. It's Kylee, who just turned 16. She will start licking her paws or the carpet, and then start swallowing frequently and will just fill up with air to the point where her stomach is distended and she's uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with what she's eating or drinking. I researched the accu-pressure points on dogs and I massage those on her, after popping a couple of simethicone capsules down her throat. The accu-pressure points are pretty darn effective - she'll start passing gas in a very short time. I also gently massage her belly which seems to encourage the gas to move on.

My shepherd, Trick, bloated in a matter of minutes from gulping down mouthfuls of fresh snow one year. We'd been outside playing, the dogs were chasing sticks into the snow (and Khana was chasing Trick). I was taking photos and when Trick trotted past me I heard her groan slightly - a completely abnormal noise for her. I immediately looked and could see the distension of her abdomon. Two simethicone capsules (I use Phazyme, an OTC drug) and a good massage of the accu-pressure points, and Trick quickly burped up a great deal of air. You could see her abdomen sink in after that.

Many Great Dane people give simethicone with every meal, just to avoid potential bloat. If Kylee seems even a bit distended I'll pop her a pill - it doesn't hurt her, and if it can keep her from bloating than it's well worth it.

I've never lost a dog to bloat (knock on wood) although I've seen several bloats when I was a vet tech. I don't feed the same diet everyday. My dogs are on a large variety of foods (many raw) and I haven't had any problems in trying new things frequently. I use treats all the time in training. In keeping their diet varied, I believe I'm helping them to handle the processing of different foods without creating gas. After all, people who eat salads all the time, or eat McDonald's burgers all the time, can eat them without gas - but give a salad or a burger to someone who never eats that kind of food, and they're going to have a gastric reaction.

Khana eats from an elevated (slightly, on the first step of the stairs) dish because she has a tendency to choke if she eats from the floor - at least she did when she was younger. I had to give her the Heimlich maneuver more than once and that's damn scary too. Once I elevated her dish, she's not choked at all.

I think we all try to do what's right for our particular dogs - and we can help avoid bloat by understanding our dog's reactions to various foods, keeping stress at a minimum by proper socialization and training and teaching them not to get upset at the vets or the groomers, knowing what is "normal" in our dogs and being able to recognize quickly the slight distension that is the precursor to bloat, keeping simethicone on hand to use once you've noted that the abdomen is getting rounder, and understanding that if your dog is vomiting, it's past the point of waiting to see what happens at home - it's an emergency and you need to be at the vet's NOW.

It's terrible to lose a dog at any time, but especially terrible to lose a dog in a way that makes you feel guilty. We can be sure that this puppy didn't die in vain, however, by refreshing our minds on how to avoid/detect bloat and passing this information on to others not on this forum.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

sit_by_the_beach · Post by **sit_by_the_beach** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:02 pm

Melanie, what brand do you buy for your hounds? Simethicone - would this be something like Maalox??
I would like to add this item to my first aid kit.

Thanks,
Karin

Boogie and Linda · Post by **Boogie and Linda** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:05 pm

Melanie mentions Phazyme as a brand she uses in her post above. I am going to get some to have on hand too.

Post by **Auddymay** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:05 pm

I think Gas-X is another name brand product, check the package ingredients to be sure.

sit_by_the_beach · Post by **sit_by_the_beach** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:20 pm

Thanks, after reading Melanie's post again, I found the name,
Phazyme. Will get some this weekend. I may have a foster chow join us tomorrow. Lots of changes for the poor chow, better be prepared for things.
Karin

cleopatra20043 · Post by **cleopatra20043** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:25 pm

I will keep note of that as well...Phazyme is something that I used for collic in babies, I never thought about using it for dog issues. And Karin..we need more info!! And pictures!!!

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:11 am

Charcoal capsules are a better choice, in my opinion, not only in absorbing gas, but also in absorbing any toxins that may be released in food fermentation and gastric cell death.

It's common enough for puppies to bloat. It can occur at any age. Puppies tend to drink great amounts of water not only because of their faster metabolism, but because they get dehydrated easily. Puppies also have greater appetites because of their faster metabolism.

One reason why stress is an important factor, is because serotonin plays an important role in the digestive tract in peristalsis and constriction. Stress causes serotonin to plunge.

pfordeb · Post by **pfordeb** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:31 am

I don't know if this helps, but Phazyme is what my husband's colon surgeon and gastroenterologist recommended as the best over the counter remedy for gas, but I have no idea what the dose would be for a dog. I'm pretty sure that and similar products contain charcoal as an ingredient, though maybe, as Kiwani suggests, pure charcoal supplements would be the best.

Good luck with the foster Karin. I'll look forward to any news.

I'm still thinking about you and Shumie, Bettie Bloop.

Chows5 · Post by **Chows5** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:29 am

I am so sorry for Shumie's passing. It's a terrible experience for anyone let alone someone who just got a new puppy. If you got your boy to the Vet in time, Lou, you are in the minority not the majority. There are certain lines that are predisposed to bloat also. I am going to assume that your statement was not meant in they way it can be taken. Otherwise, your statement is more offensive than what you think is insensitivity from Sam. Sam is trying to educate. What I saw in your exchange with Sam was " I got my chow to the Vet in time and you didn't"....

Shumie's breeder was asked about Entropion in her line and her reply was that she did not have Entropion in her line. Well, yes, she does... A lady in France has my Lexi's littermate and this littermate had to have entropion surgery when she was young. These girls won't be 2 until Dec. They are not heavy headed, they are rather "plain" girls. My Lexi has ectropion in one eye. So, I wouldn't think she would admit to having bloat in her lines either.
And, actually, since she produces so many litters and mixes so many lines, she may not really know what she has..
Any time I see a breeder saying "Not in my line" or something similar I no longer communicate with that breeder.
My Lexi did come to me as a 9 wk old puppy who would not bond with me for a long time. Then I found out she had been raised outside in runs with a roof over them. To this day Lexi would stay outside all day and night if I would let her. She now comes to me when I call her and will let me pet and play with her, but, it took alot of work and patience. Not to mention lots of "bribes"... As with most Chows she is food oriented..

Carolyn

bettybloop · Post by **bettybloop** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:14 am

Thank you everyone for sharing their stories. I have learned a lot through all of this and I only wish I had known as much as a lot of the members here have known.

We contacted the breeder that shumie came from and this is the e-mail we got:

I am very very surprised about this story. I have never heard such kind of problem with my or other chows at all.
I know all vets says that everything is a genetic fault on the dogs but I think the shock is not a genetic fault.
I am soo sorry her and of cource you and your family because I know what a big tragedy this is losing a family member.
All sisters and brothers of her are very well and of cource her parents,too.
I think maybe she could eat something little toys or something like this and this was the reason why she got a shock.

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:39 am

Sounds like the breeder is more worried about making sure they don't have to refund any money or replace the pup than they are about the fact that one of their pups passed. Sad.

And what chow breeder has never heard of bloat?

jacqui · Post by **jacqui** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:07 pm

betty,
I can't stop thinking about you and little shumie.I'm glad you told the breeder but I didn't expect she would take any responsibility,or admit to any genetic fault.that has been my experience with breeders.any decent breeder would what more info and not dimiss this tragety.
you were an excellent chow mom and you did all you could for shumie.
you and shumie are in my thoughts and prayers,
jacqui

vicster605 · Post by **vicster605** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:09 pm

Betty,
I agree with jacqui and Redangie, I am sorry to say. With my own Kearra, when we found out that she had Hip Dysplasia (a genetic disorder) I also contacted her so called breeder and was told that Kearra was the ONLY ONE to ever have a problem. At Chow Fest I met Timber's Mom and we figured out that Kearra and Timber had come from the same SO CALLED breeder and had the same father. Timber was diagnosed with Elbow Dysplasia (another genetic disorder) and when Timber's Mom contacted the breeder to let her know she was told that she was the ONLY ONE to ever have a problem. See the pattern?? She told us that she was sorry to hear that.....and basically GOOD LUCK with that........These kind of breeders would never admit any responsibility, or admit to any genetic fault. They of course are always sorry to hear that YOU have a problem or something happened to YOUR PUPPY and leave it at that. Of course Shumie must have eaten a toy or something, that dismisses all of their responsiblity. As you can see with what Chows5 just said, it appears this breeder also has this same practice....NEVER ADMIT THERE HAS EVER BEEN A PROBLEM BEFORE, and therefore that removes their responsibity....also sounds like jacqui's Lexi, has a similar personality trait that Shumie had doesn't it?? I remember her being fearful when you first got her.
I see the breeder didn't offer to refund your money, or offer you another puppy. Or even offer to give you a nice discount on another puppy, did they???
You probably will never know, but I bet ya, that Shumie is not the ONLY ONE......
HUGS to you Betty, you did the best that you could, and we have all learned from this. You are in my thoughts and prayers as well, and I am sooooo sorry that this happened
Vicki

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:43 pm

Carolyn, I know I am in the minority. Especially since Zhuyo was so close to death and the ER vet told me so. I did not use the word “grave” lightly. I didn’t have a couple of days to watch my boy go through strange symptoms, like say Sam did. What I had was the 20-30 minute opportunity to recognize and get him to a vet. Add to that the drive to the vet was another 20-30 minutes. So, I am well aware of Zhu’s survival odds with bloat, under the circumstances he came in, was rare. The doctors and vet staff told me so. They also recognized his will to live and not give up - which is what I knew of him. He was a priceless member of my family. Also, I am just a chow parent and not a breeder. Our other 5 chows at the time never had bloat, nor did other dogs we had in our family whose breeds are predisposed to the condition. What I did have was the memory of an 11 year old boy telling me that his boxer died in his arms after their evening wrAstle season. The vet diagnosed it as bloat and the symptom was his belly blew up big like a balloon and they played daily after his meal and that was when his belly twisted and gas was trapped. So that’s all I knew about bloat. Those were the 2 signs I noticed on my boy. And you don’t have to assume my statement was not meant in the way it can be taken, because I wrote it to Sam, the breeder, to be taken that way. Sam, the breeder, who said to me

Red Dragon wrote:There is obviously a lot that you don't understand and can't deal with a real life senario.

It’s nice of you to defend him. But he’s a big boy and although he whines like crazy, when he dishes the things he does out, he’s gonna need to know how to take it too. Jeff quoted Sam’s “educating” best:

Jeff&Peks wrote:
Red Dragon wrote:I went and read some of the threads on Shumie. There you have a shy puppy that is fearful of people, that equals stress. The puppy sounds like it had a UTI, more stress. A boyfriend that was being too rough with a young puppy, and from the sounds of it she was stressed and getting aggressive. Then you have gas from the treats or her food. Perfect recipe for bloat.

Boy even I Mr Cynical will give it a week or two before I start accusing, at least not the next day.

Bottomline, I wrote this before, I'll write it again "this site simply does not tolerate posts that are inconsiderate to chow parents who are in grief." I've been a member since the '90's - No exceptions. And unless a necropsy was performed, info on this thread about Shumie is one big assumption not educating. Real helpful tidbits on this thread regarding potential bloat on a pet are Melanie’s tip on the simethicone capsules and Kiwani’s tip on the charcoal capsules, all of which occurred after Sam says he’s leaving. If anyone wants to be educated on bloat, like I wrote previously use the search feature. I wrote one with a link to cut and past on your address bar, Kiwani has written two, Carolyn Dewarnce has added very important information on bloat – especially for those not near a hospital, Furballchowbaby started a thread when her friend’s chow died suddenly of bloat.

Also, we don’t know each other but when a male posts the following to a female member

Red Dragon wrote:I wish we had an emoticon for blow it out your rear, just for you Lou!

That is very offensive. Offensive enough to be banned from this site. However, that would make it too easy for him.

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:55 am

Depending on where you and your breeder live your breeder might have to give you a refund (if you are interested). There are some states that have a kind of lemon law that applies to pets. It generally incudes genetic defects, illness that present within a certain time etc..You should look over your contract as well if you have one.

Grab · Post by **Grab** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:37 pm

IliamnasQuest wrote: Khana eats from an elevated (slightly, on the first step of the stairs) dish because she has a tendency to choke if she eats from the floor - at least she did when she was younger. I had to give her the Heimlich maneuver more than once and that's damn scary too. Once I elevated her dish, she's not choked at all.

no experience with bloat (thankfully), but have you had Khana's esophagus checked? That symptom almost sounds like megaesophagus.
My Ginger had an idiopathic onset a little over a month ago after an illness. She has to eat her food in an elevated bowl(she also has to have canned food into liquid form..as I understand, some dogs do better with liquid and others on solids, simply elevated)