To neuter or not to neuter

BadBoys · Post by **BadBoys** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:09 am

My boy is right 20 weeks now and of course the vet is ready to do a little cutting. I really hate to do it but at the same time I understand the need. I can't help but think, "geesh, I wouldn't want anyone doing that to me". Then again I dont' want him to have health problems later because of it. I've had pets before and never had it done but I'm not sure what to do now. Suggestions anyone?

Dogdad · Post by **Dogdad** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:03 am

I would do it, Simply because the shelters are overflowing with chows and chow mixes. I am not sure but I think it is easier on them before they *Censored Word* mature.
dogdad

bchow · Post by **bchow** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:01 am

we asked our vet about this topic.
He says he would rather not do it as it can turn them into 'couch potatos'!

However he did say we should see how we get on and maybe consider it later.
Ours are about 7 months old...2 from same litter.

C&J

j72 · Post by **j72** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:49 am

There is always concern about taking your baby in for surgery... I would wait longer for it though, you will find many posts on here of why it is best to wait till they are older for the old snip and toss...
Here is my story (most of you know it so you can skip this part....) My sister has 2 wonderful chows. Oscar was 8 months, Lola 6 months. My sister went on vacation and left her fuzzies in the care of her loving mother in law. Lola had a silent heat, Oscar said Oooh la la, next thing you know they are getting biblical in the backyard. TA DA... Simon (and Leo, kitkat's baby boy)
This story of course has a happy ending, but that isn't usually the case... normally, you aren't going to find ALL family friend that you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt are going to love and care for they're dogs like they deserve, and those puppies end up in shelters or the pound or out on the streets. And obviously you love your little man and it would seem you would hate to see him have any part of another homeless pet... and normally a little girl of Lola's age having babies does not turn out as well for mommy dog as it did for Lola. There are a multitude of health risks that go with such a young pregnancy and it was only by the grace of God, my sister's obsession with Lola's health before and after the babies arrived, and the vet's helpful knowledge and constant tests and ultrasounds that it turned out okay ultimately... but you wouldn't want your young man taking part in a little girl having her health risked either... Oscar has since been neutered so that will not happen ever again, and my sister says that though he was always a sweetie, she has found him to be even more affectionate and enjoyable since.
Of course that isn't the only reason, there is also the "marking" situation, and the attitude problems that can come with not removing the plumbing.
Simon got neutered at 7 months old, he has always been mild mannered, but I was starting to see some "I'm the Man" attitude coming from him.
Overall, it is really just best in the end to have it taken care of. No, you wouldn't want it done to you... but he's never seen an R rated puppy movie, so he isn't really thinking along those lines

For him, its a few days of walking like he has a bad case of jock itch and then all is well!
I don't think Simon is a couch potato... I think he is more active because he doesn't have all that equipment weighing him down!
Only you can make that decision really, but I think that you will find that most people are going to support the decision to get it done for a multitude of reasons... but I doubt many of them would support your vet saying it should be done at 4 months. Heck, my vet refused to even talk about it until 6 months....

zingara_princepessa · Post by **zingara_princepessa** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:48 am

Neuter neuter neuter! If God forbid he ever got away from you he'd be out in the world looking for Cushy Bimbolino to bump uglies with, and the next thing ya know, he's hit with paternity suits!

Get him fixed. It's easier on you and past the first week, he won't notice at all.

j72 · Post by **j72** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:52 am

ROFLMBO!!!!! Cushy Bimbolinos!!!!

Little girl chowlings... "Hey big boy, you are lookin' FINE today..." Heavy on the mascara, light on the skirt... The visual is killin' me here Jen!

zingara_princepessa · Post by **zingara_princepessa** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:49 am

J7 -

Don't forget the push-up bra and low-cut blouse!!!

WildThings · Post by **WildThings** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:08 am

I have to completely agree with Jenn. After spending hours pouring over chows and chow mixes on Petfinder and through Craigs list, I do not see the justification for most animals being left "intact" for lack of a better word. Male dogs can tell when a female is in heat, from quite a distance, and with that testosterone pumping through them, if is often hard to keep them apart. I once had a lady tell me that it was not her problem if other people could not spay their females. Maybe it was not her problem, but the puppies who end up gassed at a shelter a few months down the road shouldn't have to pay the price either.

As for the coach potato thing...I know many people use that argument, but I have had spayed and neutered pets my entire life. The only time they put on weight is when I got lazy and didn't walk them enough or couldn't convince my dad to cut back on the table scraps. Besides, I love couch potato dogs.

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:57 am

There is some concern about getting any dog neutered or spayed before they are *Censored Word* mature in that it has been theorized that it can cause uneven bone growth leading to joint problems later on.

The attitude ajustment thing is up to you, frankly I like the macho attitude of an intact male chow, I also like the aloofness. Doesn't bother me, if I wanted an overly dependent, always wanting attention type dog I'd get a golden or lab or something. And frankly an aloof chow boy is going to be an aloof chow boy neutered or not.

If you are getting him neutered to stop aggression, forget it, won't work, that is training, training, training!

There is only reason to neuter and that is to prevent accidental puppies.

So it's good to neuter for that reason, but only for that reason.

TJordan · Post by **TJordan** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:48 pm

I didn't want to get Butters done either. But I finally agreed mostly because of his Bad attitude. He is no more of a couch potaote now than he was then. So as far as activity level, same. His attitude, also same. So no harm no foul.

Dogdad · Post by **Dogdad** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:16 pm

Jenn and wildthing ( you go girls ) For me, All I had to do is to visit a kill shelter and realize that with in a month maybe 2 most of the animals would be put down. Look on Petfinder or humane society web pages, There are soooo many homeless dogs living in deplorable conditions. Accidents in dogs are quite common. Nuetering may make them into couch potatos but a walking regieme will help with that, there are medical problems more common with un nuetered males.
David

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:03 pm

There are definitely pros and cons to neutering.

Personally I would neuter any dogs I had that I was not showing in conformation or planning on breeding (and I would only plan on breeding after my dog had been proven through showing or trialling and after all health certifications had been completed). Breeding should really be left to those dedicated enough to want to study pedigrees and carefully breed for health, temperament and proper breed characteristics.

Neutering helps in a variety of ways. It takes away the source of the hormones which encourage a number of behaviors, such as roaming, searching for a mate, marking, fighting, etc. Neutering in and of itself won't stop established behaviors so if you have a dog already marking or running off neutering isn't a solution. But neutering stops the production of the hormones which push the dog to do some of these behaviors and that's a good thing.

A large number of puppies are produced just because people don't neuter and dogs occasionally get loose. The drive to mate is a very intense drive and dogs are going to do what comes natural, of course. So neutering to help pet population is a valid reason too.

And in a neutered male dog, there will be no possibility of testicular cancer and a reduced likelihood of prostate problems. I've seen many intact male dogs who would come into the clinic urinating blood and it was generally from an enlarged prostate. The prostate would be enlarged due to the male having scented a female in heat. There's just no need for dogs to go through that sort of thing.

Now, for me personally, I would not neuter (spay or castrate) any of my dogs before they reach maturity. That's just a personal choice and one based on a belief that they do need some of these hormones in order to develop fully. But I'm also really careful with my dogs and they're not ever allowed to roam. Khana is still intact as I'm showing her and may possibly breed her some day. I have no problems keeping her confined.

I really think the reasons FOR neutering far outweigh the reasons for not neutering. There is no emotional attachment within the dog to certain organs like there is in humans. I've never seen a dog mourn the loss of testicles or uterus .. *L* .. people do that, dogs just live life.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:09 pm

How old would you say is *Censored Word* mature? I was advised to spay Millie before 6 months, & therefore her first heat? Is it the same for boys?

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:30 pm

After six months they are just about fully mature. The male should be lifting his leg consistently for urination. They need that time for full muscular development. And just so you know, a female spayed before she is mature, (her first heat) can become MORE aggressive because she doesn't get the influx of estrogen to off set the testosterone.

I am not advocating not neutering. I am saying that neutering too early can cause more problems, problems that may get the dog dumped and pts anyway. Pet over population is not an animal problem it is a human problem and spaying/neutering too early thereby causing illnesses and other issues in your dog is not the answer. Controlling your dog is the answer, let them grow up be heatlthy and then neuter/spay them. In the meantime be responsible! I've had 3 intact males, never mated when they were with me, kind of hard to do when they were never allowed out off leash. I live across the hall from two intact Rotties, who have never mated, again, they are never off leash.

Testicular cancer is rather rare, and protate cancer occurs in both neutered and intact males with almost equal frequency. It is actually more medically beneficial to spay a female since this protects her from mamary cancer, uterine cancer, and many other uterine diseases.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:56 pm

Layla wrote:How old would you say is *Censored Word* mature? I was advised to spay Millie before 6 months, & therefore her first heat? Is it the same for boys?

For me, I will probably keep all of mine intact until at least a year old, but then you're going to have to expect to deal with at least one heat cycle. I *think* I'll be getting a puppy in August and it will be a learning experience, because unless I make a sudden decision to never show Khana in conformation again I won't be getting her spayed and I'll have two intact females. I want to keep the shepherd intact until she's fully grown and for shepherds that can be a couple of years. So we'll see .. if for any reason the girls have a problem with this, I will spay accordingly. I have NO desire to ever breed shepherds or show them in conformation (she's a German/Hungarian line dog anyway so she wouldn't do well in AKC conformation) so I already know that girl will be spayed at some point.

If a person is responsible and handles their dogs appropriately, the time frame for neutering is really not a big deal.

Victory - actually we saw very little prostate cancer, but prostate enlargement and the subsequent problems were VERY common in intact males. It's not a comfortable situation and can lead to urinary infections and additional problems. After seeing all these poor boys peeing blood, I'd neuter a male in a heartbeat. But I'd wait until he's full grown.

OH - one thing I didn't mention. Younger dogs tend to recuperate more quickly. So that's a pro for neutering young.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:04 pm

Victory wrote:After six months they are just about fully mature. The male should be lifting his leg consistently for urination. They need that time for full muscular development. And just so you know, a female spayed before she is mature, (her first heat) can become MORE aggressive because she doesn't get the influx of estrogen to off set the testosterone.

Really? Great

I wish I'd asked this forum first. Not happy but glad I know to watch out for this and will understand if Millie gets more of a dominant arse on me! So, if I got a boy to complete my pack (I'm aiming for younger) should I wait until they are one year to neuter or go early to decrease the risk of them not getting along?

Thanks

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:54 pm

I had Sid neutered right at 6 months. I don't think his behavior has changed at all. He's still a very rowdy puppy. He never really was or is aggressive. He's definitely NOT a couch potato.. HA HA, not yet anyways.
I never had the intention of showing OR breeding him so I thought it was the best move. The Vet actually suggested 6 months which I thought was out of the ordinary but I may be mistaken.

The very first time Sid tried to do the WILD THING with my pillow, I CALLED THE VET! LOL.. He hasn't done it since, he's lost interest in my pillow, except to try and rip open and spread stuffing all over the house.

ha ha ha

Salandra · Post by **Salandra** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:19 pm

Just my two cents worth - I believe in neutering and spaying because of all the unwanted animals there are. Like David said, visit a kill shelter and see all the unwanted animals.

As for when, my vet recommended spaying before the first heat, because it is easier on the female. I don't know if everyone would agree with that or not. I didn't get Jaz in though for financial reasons, until she was just over a year. Her attitude didn't change, she's still a brat

yandr · Post by **yandr** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:57 am

My boy is 17 months old and I only got him when he was 12 months old. Right now, we have fixed the vast majority of the behavioral problems (apart from allowing the vet - and us - to examine him), so I am thinking what would be best for the dog.

Chop - chop or not? Is he too old? I mean is there an age after which we should not do it? Some people say that he should mate once first and then neuter him. Is this correct? This is starting to trouble me.

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:30 am

I don't think I've ever heard that you should let them "mate" once before they are neutered/spayed. I have DEFINITELY heard that a female should go through her "first heat" before being spayed.

Say, I'll have to read back through the threads to see if Melanie said anything. I know that she and Victory, (ok, all you all do) have FANTASTIC advice. To be honest, I always ask my Vet too. I really trust her judgment and when I read stuff on this site that I start to "freak out" about, she says:
"Don't worry, we'll keep our eye on it"
"Let me research that for you"
"Sid's a healthy boy"
"Stop stressing"

LOL.. I'm a WebMD browser and tend to work myself into a paranoid mess! Good thing my General Practitioner is good too! LOL.. (Another good LAUGH Sunday story!)

Samorrathis · Post by **Samorrathis** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:52 pm

Nanuk is papered and after a year and a half we decieded that neutering was best. We didn't want to be another backyard breeder and I sure don't have the time to show him. I thought he would be less likey to wander and be less aggressive. He is rather more relaxed now but thats a good thing. One thing I wish I had done was get his teeth cleaned while he was already under, he is not one for teeth brushing. Whatever you decied just weigh the pro and cons and see what is best for all of you.
*cough* nueter...

fillyok · Post by **fillyok** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:54 pm

We just went through neutering with Tod, my new Chow-mix. I'm not exactly sure how old he is, but I'm guessing about 7 months old. The vet tech thought he might be older.

Anyway, it was kind of bad the first day or so. He kept wanting to lick, but I had put an e-collar on him to prevent that. He didn't whine at all or seem like he was uncomfortable. I did make sure he got some pain meds. He took them for 4 days. He wore the e-collar for a week.

I only had Tod a few days before he got neutered so it's hard to judge how/if he's changed. I did notice that he would attempt to hump the others before surgery, but I haven't seen him try it since. He's definately NOT a couch potato. He was zooming a day or so after the surgery. He's pretty laid back for a puppy though.

The main reason I had him neutered was to prevent any accidents outside and inside our fence. My other 3 are altered already, but I know Tod would probably go crazy trying to get to some of the neighbor's females since I'm sure they're probably not spayed. It also cuts down on the chance that Bear and Tod will have any dominance issues. I noticed in the past, Bear only had issues at the dog park with unaltered males.

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:05 pm

yandr wrote:My boy is 17 months old and I only got him when he was 12 months old. Right now, we have fixed the vast majority of the behavioral problems (apart from allowing the vet - and us - to examine him), so I am thinking what would be best for the dog.

Chop - chop or not? Is he too old? I mean is there an age after which we should not do it? Some people say that he should mate once first and then neuter him. Is this correct? This is starting to trouble me.

Yandr, he is not too old, infact he is a perfect age. And no he does NOT need to mate first. Like Melanie said he won't miss it, animals mate for only one reason to produce offspring. They don't do all the emotional, bonding thru *Censored Word* stuff that humans do. They bond in other ways. If you aren't going to show him and are not interested in breeding, I don't remember if he is papered or not, then get him neutered so their won't be any accidental puppies.

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:20 pm

Layla wrote:
So, if I got a boy to complete my pack (I'm aiming for younger) should I wait until they are one year to neuter or go early to decrease the risk of them not getting along?

Thanks

No male dog should ever go after a female whether she is spayed or not. A male that does this is so poorly socialized or so badly bred that he'd be a freak. (and I certainly would strongly advise against breeding him) The dynamics between males and females are very different than between same *Censored Word*. They can both be dominant, because they are dominant in different ways and one doesn't conflict with the other.

Even over food, he should yeild to her, (something that you have to make sure SHE doesn't take advantage of) Firesong took food, treats, toys and anything else she wanted from Darkwind on a regular basis, she does the same to Dreamdancer. When Darkwind would get tired of her, he'd grumble rumble at her and she'd go bother someone else, (me normally) Dreamdancer will lay near her and bark at her until she gives up.

If you do get a baby boy I think you should wait, (but monitor closely so there are no accidents!)

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:24 pm

Many thanks Victory. I think the breeding may've been the issue with Java, esp now I'm fully aware of where he came from & how he had to survive for the first 11 months of his life. He was neutered at 1 yr (or there about) However, he did not fit at all how you describe the normal male / female dynamic.

I'm not planning to look yet but it's good to know what I'm going to be dealing with. I certainly will be watching carefully for that first year though!