Chow breader news story (not good)

[Red Dragon]

Melanie, you know where the OFA site is, use it, I am not looking up a bunch of certifications to post them for you, I also offered to answer any of your questions if you emailed me, didn't see anything. Yes I have sold one puppy to a pet home in the last year and a half, I guess I am a puppy mill too, not sure when the next litter will be, but I will inform you and the militia so you can barnstorm me, only problem is you won't find anything wrong at my place, guess that will really tick you off!

I have already told you previously I did not approve of the conditions I saw in the video, and I am not trying to defend anyone, I am telling you there will be three in the place of every one you shut down that is doing some good by health checking, I am trying to drive that into your fat heads. Think about what you are doing!

There are several places within a 75 mile radius of me that I would like to see shut down, both show breeders and puppy mills, but you don't see me going and raising a big stink and calling the news media to blow things out of whack like they like to do. I have more sense, the dogs have food, water, and shelter, and I don't have anywhere for 100 Chows to go, and I am not going to cause them to be put down because I don't like the conditions!

[Red Dragon]

Oh, one other thing Melanie, I couldn't care less if the Chow breeders take me seriously, it's like Zola Coogan says, "They use to laugh at me for all the health checks, but look whos laughing now."

[Guest]

Where do you get your information, who said the dogs at Cherub were treated badly, have you been there, have you seen the dogs, where is your information coming from and just who are you?

You still don't get it, you can try and shut down Cherub too, all it will get you is three in her place that don't do health checks, Cherub has plenty of health checks, go look!

You people are just like the idiots around here, a Chow puppy mill got shut down several years ago because a member of the Chow Club didn't like the conditions, well guess what, another Chow breeder down the road bought several of her dogs and is now an even bigger puppy mill than she was, over twice as big, guess what, NO HEALTH CHECKS!! Guess what, the AKC and the State don't care, they meet the minimum requirements.

Give me your address so I can send you a free hammer so you can drive this through your fat heads!!! "HEALTH CHECKS"!!!!

Why don't you slow down and actually READ what I typed.

I said IF Linda treats the dogs badly she should be next. IF is the key word here.

If there is an abusive puppy mill around you then why do you just sit there on your behind and type on your keyboard. Get off your LAZY *Censored Word* an do something about it. Your just jealous that someone has the guts to do something and you are just too plain scared.

Red Dragon, you are the one that is barking up the wrong tree here. Go somewhere else to promote your pro-backyard breeding and puppy millers. You are not welcome here!!!

"I think I am done with this site, just like I have been done with the breeders sites, you are all the same, you won't work to a solution of the problems and you have no clue what you are doing!"

Now do what you said a couple of posts ago and leave this wonderful site and take your pro-puppy mill attitude with you. I'm sure you can find what you desire at:

http://www.puppymillersupport.com , http://www.icondonedogabuse.com , http://www.ignoreitanditwillgoaway.com , http://www.ithinkiknowitall.com

[ChowMania]

Sorry, me again. I clicked the "remember me" box this time, I promise.

[Red Dragon]

Chowmania, come build a shelter and supply all the food and staff and we can dial the news media together, until then shut your trap. You right, I am out of here, you are all a bunch of loosers, Rebels Without A Clue!

[ChowMania]

Shouldn't be a problem, 5 posts ago you stated there is such a demand for these chows. We should be able to sell them quickly and be done with it.

It's quite convenient how you use your facts when they suit you and forget them when they make you look bad.

You are just not getting it are you. There is nobody here that is going to see it your way so just do us all a big favor and go away and let us try and fight this horrible problem that you want to ignore.

Please leave and don't let the door smack you in the behind on your way out.

[Zhuyos mom]

You people gave her no choice, the dogs had to go somewhere imediately because of city ordinances. ...Think about your actions before you do something like this!...

Sure she had a choice. We all have choices. She chose to harbor far too many dogs in a residential neighborhood for far too long. Didn't she have contacts in your "industry" to assist her in her time of need? Why didn't you step up and help her find friends and family or rescues to help place the volume of chows she has till she can get her health and act together. There are definitely rescues in her area - chow rescues and dog rescues. If you or your fellow breeders have the respect for her business, then why didn't you offer her choices in her time of need? You are in her *circle*, not us. If some of her chows *were* put to sleep, it was her choice. Please don't go *blaiming* members of this site about not giving her a choice. Owners need to legally surrender their animals before they are euthanized after being seized. It was her choice to sign the document.

From your other posts, you seem to possess such a negative and "angry" position. Why on earth did you join the forum? If you aren't able to see the total picture of where the intent of this thread comes from then maybe you aren't Lolly's friend and supporter. If you are the expert (having years of experience with the breed) you write you are, act like one and help your friend out in a productive manner. Raging at us is useless. You gotta look in the mirror, Sam, look in the mirror!

[IliamnasQuest]

Sam, I don't know the name of your dogs - how can I find their certifications? It's pretty obvious that IF your dogs had all those health tests you keep screaming about, you'd gladly post them. Instead you keep side-stepping the question.

Does the word "hypocrite" mean anything to you?

You show yourself to be even worse than we thought when you allude to bad breeders in your area that you are doing nothing about. Yes, you have all the excuses .. and meanwhile, they keep popping out puppy after puppy. Is it okay that these puppies are likely to have genetic diseases and are sold without any concern for their lives? Evidently it is, to you. Instead of doing something to stop the constant stream of puppies, you simply throw your hands in the air and whine "I can't do it because I can't take on all those dogs!!". So the problem continues, and in the long run MORE dogs will be produced.

I have a lot of respect for someone who stands up and says "it's time to stop this before it gets any worse" - which is what WorknChowz did. It wasn't easy. But the information that has come out since then shows that numerous complaints had been made about Canton chows over the last few years and nothing had been done before! And in the interval, dozens of more puppies were born and the problem continued.

Oh, one other thing Melanie, I couldn't care less if the Chow breeders take me seriously, it's like Zola Coogan says, "They use to laugh at me for all the health checks, but look whos laughing now."

I bring up the chow breeders because YOU brought them up and wailed about how they treated you. And FYI - your name doesn't deserve to be used in the same paragraph with Zola's. The two of you are eons apart. I will always think of your name in conjunction with Lolly Harris now, though ... does that please you? *L*

NO ONE caused Lolly's dogs to be put down except for Lolly (if, indeed, dogs WERE put down .. you're the only one saying that and I don't see a lot of reason to believe you). If it's true, it's another strike against her as a "breeder".

And I haven't answered your PM because there's nothing we can't say in public .. well, nothing I can't say in public. Maybe you have things you want to hide, but I don't.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[WorknChowz]

Dragon,
It is distressing that you are so zealous about berating me for my taking a stand against the abuse and neglect I witnessed, yet you refuse to offer any solutions or alternatives to what you think should have been done. You won't even acknowledge the questions you have been asked.
Why is that?


I wish I could remember who said this, and the exact wording, but it is worth posting anyway...
All that is neccesary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing.

[kingalls]

Being silent and doing nothing like Red Dragon enables "breeders" like Lolly Harris to exist. It takes people like WorknChowz to help stop cruel breeders like Lolly. "Breeders" like Lolly need to be exposed early and often - before the Chows are bred over and over again - only to be put down when the puppymill is exposed. It is not the people like WorknChowz that should be criticized - it's people like Sam that chose to do nothing to help promote responsible breeding. If Lolly is shutdown and 3 other like breeders take her place, I truly hope that people like WorknChowz have the ethics to make sure they are exposed and shutdown as well.
Everyone on this site loves the Chow Chow breed and we all want the best for our Chows - whether they are purebred show dogs from breeders, purebred from family chows, chow rescues, chow mixes,...and we never want a pet euthanized and it's really sad that Lolly created a situation that led to this type of exposure. We have no direct knowledge that this led to euthanization of some of her Chows but ultimately - she is entirely responsible for the condition of every Chow in her "care".
Anyone that has been a member of this site for a while will know that many, many of us promote rescuing of Chows. This cannot always be accomplished so if there are breeders out there that need to be avoided, then this site should provide that type of information. This is where a majority of us are coming from. We are not clueless fat head Chow breeder vigilantes - quite the contrary! we are trying to promote knowledgeable Chow owners.

[Auddymay]

There is really only one solution to the problem, mandatory health checks, only then will you see the puppy mills and the show breeders that are breeding for profit give it up, it will cut deep into their pockets, and you are doing good for the dogs at the same time, that is the only solution!

Who would be enforcing these checks? Who would even be making checks mandatory, AKC? Local and state governments? I read through several insulting posts from you Sam. I'm ashamed for you, and sorry for you. It is a beginning, to shut down individual breeders, instead of sitting on our hands and turning a blind eye to the ugly side of breeding, while waiting for magical legislation to be put into law, then weakly enforced.

As for Cherub Chows, the only thing that put her under suspicion was her proximity to Lolly. At no time was she in any danger from us, because we aren't looking to hurt legitimate breeders. If one of us saw horrid conditions with our own eyes, as was the case with Lolly, that would be another matter.

You said you were done here, and that is just as well. It isn't your views that are the problem, it is your superior attitude that is your albatross. I would not have brought this up before, but you went on BTT and acted the same way. Your mind is closed, and that is too bad. Good luck finding a site that will agree with all your views.

[IliamnasQuest]

Melanie, you know where the OFA site is, use it, I am not looking up a bunch of certifications to post them for you,

Okay, Sam, I did as you recommended and I searched for "Red Dragon" in the OFA database. I came up with some matches, and researched from there to see what I could find. Please correct me if any of this data is incorrect.

You own/owned a bitch by the name of "BJ'S FOOT LOOSE AND FANCYFREE" (call name "Lucy" - pedigree at http://lohanchows.com/ChowPedigrees/lucy.htm). According to the OFA site, she is OFA-Good on hips and has cleared cardiac and thyroid. No mention of elbows being done. The CERF on her eyes indicate that she has PPM, which is a condition that is considered hereditary in the chow (and in fact, the chow is one of the few breeds that CERF will not issue a number to if they have PPM) (http://www.vmdb.org/dx1.html).

Looking at Lucy's pedigree/background, I don't see any health documentation on either parent and neither are listed on the OFA website. On her pedigree, only one of her four grandparents is listed with an OFA number, and only rated a "Fair" (the lowest of the possible ratings). No other health tests are mentioned. On her mother's side, you have to go back three generations to find any listed OFA hip results. Now, granted, there may have been some results that weren't listed on the pedigree - but it's looking a bit bleak.

So, despite all your declarations of believing in health testing and wanting to "fix" the problems OTHER breeders have created, you went ahead and bred this bitch. She doesn't have a great health background from what I can see, and in fact HAS one hereditary disease that good breeders are trying to remove from the breed - but you bred her anyway. The dog you bred her to has hips certified "good" on the OFA site, but no other health tests are listed.

Two of the offspring are listed on the OFA site. The one puppy, RED DRAGON'S FENG PO-PO, is certified on cardiac and thyroid but no hip or elbow certifications are listed. CERF shows that this pup also has PPM.

The other puppy, RED DRAGON'S LU-LU, is certified on eyes, cardiac and thyroid, but has hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and a grade 1 luxating patella.

While I applaud that you have allowed results to be posted that are not positive (because I think it's valuable for chow people to know which dogs/bitches are producing these problems too), I am a bit confused as to how you can preach health testing when you bred a dog with such an apparently spotty background and who has a disease (PPM) that is considered hereditary. It's these kinds of breedings that create problems.

By the way, in my "puppy" email folder I found an email you wrote where you said you expected to get $1000 for your pet puppies (given the time frame, I'm guessing that the puppies you had at that time were the ones from the litter I discussed above). Your reasoning was that the person would get a puppy with a "long championship history and health checks". I already discussed the lack of health testing, but even the championships are not much to brag about. In the 30 dogs that make up the four generation pedigree, only 12 are listed with championships. On the dam's side, you have to go back three generations to find one. That's not what I would consider a "long championship history". And, of course, I saw no performance titles.

Research is a great thing.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Boggled]

Red - Here is what really went down at Canton - I'm really hoping you are not aware of this:

Hello Chow lovers.
Although I have not been posting much as I have been very busy, a situation has come up that I feel I must warn everyone in Chows about.
I know it's difficult to find good Chow breeders and it's awfully tempting to trust someone many miles away from a beautiful website full of pictures of lovely fluffy puppies.

UNLESS YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO CAN PERSONALLY CHECK OUT A BREEDER, DON'T BUY!!!
I am thankful that I just happened to be 800 miles from home and near enough to an AKC, CCCI member, "Code of Ethics" breeder, to go see for myself and not fall for the facade on my computer screen.
What I saw was wretched.
Not only were the conditions filthy and overcrowded, but the cruelty I, and my friends witnessed was appalling.


The smell inside the home was overwhelming. Urine, urine, and more urine. Feces were minimal, but they had obviously cleaned up expecting our visit.

The puppies were filthy and wet allover with urine, except the one that the breeder expected me to take which she had all fluffed and perfumed. This pup was so frightened; she wouldn't move or even acknowledge my presence. She was stiff, shaking, and seemed petrified to move out of a "stack". This "breeder" kept repeating that this was a normal Chow puppy reaction and that "She'd warm up to me in a couple of days." As a behaviorist, I can tell you that these pups were traumatized, barely socialized at all, and acted almost feral.

The way this "lady" treated the pups was shameful..The one I came to look at hid under a piece of furniture along with a couple of others. The "breeder" began screaming at them, grabbed them by whatever she could grab, lifted them frantically yelping about three feet in the air, and THREW them (yes, THREW them) into the middle of the room! It was horrible and I will forever hear the echo of those pup's screams and never forget that STENCH!

There was an older bitch, in the room that made a quiet connection with me. I bent to let her sniff my hand and the "breeder", probably thinking I might want to buy her, GRABBED her by a handful of fur, yanked her out from under the table and made her stack for me. I wanted to comfort this sweet girl and so I pet her and found that the skin on her head and neck was covered in small scabs.

I could see nowhere on the property that the dogs could get any exercise, and the curtains were quickly drawn when they discovered me looking out.

This is NOT how dogs should ever be kept or treated! The fact that they happen to be Chow Chows, owned by a supposed COE breeder is all the more disgusting.

The unsuspecting out of state buyers of these overpriced puppies will undoubtedly have a challenge on their hands. They will be told by ignorant Veterinarians and Trainers that "Chows are just that way" and how will they end up? The ramifications go farther. Just this one breeder, with multiple litters (6+) shipped out every year is impacting our breed as a whole, perpetuating the belief that Chows are an unstable, untrustworthy, dangerous breed.

The only reason that I am not naming this "breeder" publicly is that there are forum members here that have purchased puppies from this "breeder" and I don't want to break their hearts like mine was broken when I went to pick up "my" puppy.
_________________
Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all...

[Victory]

The answer to the problem of puppy mills and bad breeders is to get the AKC to actually live up to their stated goals and ideals. They can do this by not giving registration papers to any dog or litter whose parents have not had health checks or who have scored poorly on health checks. The remidial health checks need to be stopped for breeding dogs, (they are okay for puppies being sold to show or as pets) since full health checks for joints and such can't be done until 2years of age, this will decrease the number of dogs bred too young.

Now the only and biggest obstacle to all this is the AKC itself, I've done a bit of researching but can't find out how one becomes a member. If all members are breeder, there is no way things will ever be put right, but if you can be a member as a dog enthusisist...we may have a chance with a ground swell movement to take over and change things!

"Viva la revoulution!" Okay even my psuedo French is bad, but it's an idea.

[WorknChowz]

The answer to the problem of puppy mills and bad breeders is to get the AKC to actually live up to their stated goals and ideals. They can do this by not giving registration papers to any dog or litter whose parents have not had health checks or who have scored poorly on health checks. The remidial health checks need to be stopped for breeding dogs, (they are okay for puppies being sold to show or as pets) since full health checks for joints and such can't be done until 2years of age, this will decrease the number of dogs bred too young.

Now the only and biggest obstacle to all this is the AKC itself, I've done a bit of researching but can't find out how one becomes a member. If all members are breeder, there is no way things will ever be put right, but if you can be a member as a dog enthusisist...we may have a chance with a ground swell movement to take over and change things!

"Viva la revoulution!" Okay even my psuedo French is bad, but it's an idea.

I think you're onto something there! I will not hold my breath waiting for AKC but perhaps a new organization called something like "Breeders of Ethics and Excellence Registry". (Oops, that spells BEER! Oh well, just a thought... )
The WWW has made the dog world pretty darn small, I think a group of passionate, dog loving, volunteers should head this up.
I'd like to start right away!
Who's with me?

[Sylvia]

I was looking at the AKC site and it almost looks like you need to become a member of the parent club to be a member of the AKC. I could be wrong, since I'm not a member of either. For Chows the parent club is the CCCI. Information on becoming a member can be found at http://www.chowclub.org/ and click the membership link on the left.

[Auddymay]

Well, that would take care of a large portion of the dogs out there, then there also needs to be a solution for the next tier- CKC registry et al. And that is Continental, not Canadian for the first C. Un-papered Chows will be extremely hard to put sanctions on.

[WorknChowz]

I was looking at the AKC site and it almost looks like you need to become a member of the parent club to be a member of the AKC. I could be wrong, since I'm not a member of either. For Chows the parent club is the CCCI. Information on becoming a member can be found at http://www.chowclub.org/ and click the membership link on the left.

Don't bother trying to make a difference in CCCI. I wrote to the President of CCCI early on in my attempt to bring this horrible situation to attention and was not even given the courtesy of a returned email or phonecall. They don't have any power other than to kick someone out of the club...
Sad, really sad.....

[jerryo]

Revolt against the revolting! Kill the Puppymills!

I like the overall concept, but I'm not sure how we do it. It looks like the AKC is about as useless as the UN when it comes to enforcing anything. It would take more money and votes than we probably have to make an impact on an organization controlled by various qualities of the same breeders who are making their income from the abuses we are targeting. CCCI would be a smaller target, but looking at their website they are just as useless. They state that they support ethical breeding as one of their first objectives, then further down the page say that they don't check on what goes on their links, so if you have a problem, tuff-nuggies.

On the up-side, the web is a great communications media, and this site gets lots of traffic with no real outreach. We have members spread around the world, who could personally check on many of the suspected puppymills. It seems that if we could work with local Humane Societies to leverage their enforcement resources, and also provide an internet clearing house of information on problem breeders, we might have a little better chance. Trying to appeal to the good natures of the puppymillers is like trying to convince a shark to be a vegetarian. Even if we dry up the registered abuse, they are going to drop the price, increase the production and keep going.

Calaveras County, CA just passed a law preventing sale of puppies in public venues to stop the flea-markets and parking lot peddlers. It's too early to tell how that's going to work out.

I like the BEER idea, even though it only gets at part of the issue, it's a start.

[Victory]

Well, first we have to come up with a better acronymn, I like the meaning of the name, but BEER just doesn't demand respect.

Then we have to get other breed enthusiasts who are sick of the inaction of the AKC and other orgs to join up as well. We have to create a base of power with numbers to create the prestige we're looking for. Which will allow us to push this issue forward. The AKC has been around awhile and we are trying to usurp their position as the be-all/say-all in dog registration.

After we have other breeds represented then we need to come up with breed critria for each one. I recommend getting rid of or not having the so called, "non sporting" classification. It sucks. All canines were bred to do a job and the first order of business, (other than reducing the number of bad breeders) is to insist that dogs bred today can do the job they were bred for. Chows were bred to hunt, pull things, guard, and other things. They should be able to do these jobs. Not be so heavy boned or heavy headed that they can't do the jobs.

What I want to see is an organization that only allows the very best bred to be on it's rosters. This can be done through the internet until there is sufficient money to run shows. OFA and other certification copies can be sent, (by the vets and boards doing the tests) to a central place. Along with the birthdates of breeding parents, and full genetic backgrounds.

Then we hold shows to physically judge the dogs, temperment, soundness, health being the most important parts. conformation fits with all that so it's a given, color is next.

[Auddymay]

Well, Lily is a working Chow. We tether her to a boat anchor that weighs more than she does. She gets dug in, and can drag it quite a way, making furrows in the lawn and driveway all the way! I would like to try and see if she could pull a sled, but winter left mid-December, and we haven't gotten it back yet.

[Sylvia]

I'm wondering if it might be more manageable to start a little simpler. First start out by defining what testing should be required, then research which kennels actually perform these tests. Once you have this list of kennels, check if they show in conformation and/or obedience trials. If a kennel gets this far, then send some one out there to check the kennel out and take a look at the dogs. If the kennel gets past this, then put them on an approved list on this forum.

[chris]

I think Red Dragon left...

[Jeff&Peks]

Yeah, that's to bad though, I wanted to know more about Rebel without a Clue, Sounds like a good movie title. 3 rebellious youths and their Chows go to an observatory.

Wayyyyyyyyyyyyy before your time Chris.

[Auddymay]

Yeah Jeff, you could be Jeff Dean to Chris's Christine Wood.