Bad Bad Leroy Brown.

[WeLoveLeRoy]

Tuesday morning as Leroy and I were returning from our walk, we noticed our neighbour in his driveway so we ventured over to say hello. Jim has known Leroy for 3 years now. He babysits Leroy everytime we go on vacation, has walked Leroy dozens of times over the years. Any event, the second we reach up to him, Leroy bites him. Hard. Shock and confusion took over the first 5 seconds before I could pull Leroy back. I am utterly confused and saddened that Leroy would bite him, of all people. For no reason what so ever. Usually my daughter is the one who walks Leroy, but I like to squeeze walks in whenever I can. I also would like to add that my daughter and I are very soft spoken, and have never been mean to Leroy. This is the fifth person he has bit in his five years. Most other "bites" were justified in my mind in the past. Whether he had bitten because someone tried to corner him, or someone came around the corner to quickly and startled him were always ok enough in my mind to understand. But not this. I just don't understand how or why Leroy chose to bite Jim for no reason what so ever. i guess I just cannot let anyone near Leroy ever again...or I may loose him for good. And that's a chance I'm just not willing to take

[Hugo]

Hi
Sorry to hear of your trouble. Could you perhaps muzzle Leroy Brown when out and about? I dont know what else to suggest. Poor you and Leroy. Maybe he got a fright when your neigbour touched him?.
Good luck.
Hugo x

[WeLoveLeRoy]

Thanks Hugo. The muzzles Ive seen at the vets office dont seem to stay attached properly but maybe now is a good time to do some research. Thanks Hugo.

[Sarahloo]

I can understand how disappointed you're feeling! Leroy has let you down.
People here always recommend a visit to the vet to check that he is not in any pain, so maybe you should take him to get checked out.
I imagine sth. like this is probably a good idea for him
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=wir ... 06&bih=604.
Light, doesn't get in the way of smelling everything, kind of like a baseball helmet, if you think about it. My Loo here even wears his surgical cone thingy happily. Chows are tough. A muzzle is just something to get used to, and he will.

[sue]

On the occasions that hes bitten has it always been when you have walked him.If so then he is over protective of you and must have felt you were at threat from your neigbour and he had to protect you.I would suggest you contact a good professional trainer who could do a home visit and walk out with you they would be able to pick up on his body language and give you the best advice of signs to watch out for.

[BeckiHutton]

Can I just say that leroy is such a handsome boy. I haven't seen any pictures of him before. He is stunning. I am so sorry to hear of your Troubles.

[Merlin]

eroy chose to bite Jim for no reason what so eve

There is no such thing as "no reason". Absolutely no such thing. There is always a reason.

Any event, the second we reach up to him, Leroy bites him.

When dogs want to be your friend, they make no secret about it, They make overtures, they press into us, give us good eye contact, and let us know in no uncertain terms that they are open to engaging together with us. The chimpanzee in us humans, keeps making us think that it is ok to walk up to just about everything and touch it or hug it. Dogs, being dogs, don't do that, and irregardless of how we hope our dogs will be, they are dogs, they have good days and bad days just like we do, and for all you know, your friend broke some, small, minute protocol in your chow's mind, that triggered the bite sentiment.

It's really imperative that we go out of our way to protect the interests of our chows, lest they get bad labels.
If you don't see your chow blatantly walk up to a person, lean in on that person and request scritchies, then, it's prudent to make the assumption that your dog is not interested in being touched by that person, and persisting to do so could have ramifications.

This act doesn't make your dog an, "aggressive dog", and no he didn't let you down at all. He's just being a chow. In fact, it's you who has to be the one to protect your chow's interests by being better able to assess whether or not your dog wants to be touched by any particular individual.

Socializing your dog doesn't mean he has to tolerate being touched by humans. Just like some people, there are dogs who don't care for it either, especially when it's uninvited,.
So don't feel bad.

Try to imagine what you'd feel like if everyone who walked up to you was always touching you - ( and uninvitedly) . Some days you'd be ok with it, other days you'd tolerate it, and other days you'd be entirely fed up with it. Our dogs are no different. Humans think that just because it "must feel" good to the dog, they have carte blanche to invade any dog's space with physical contact.

[Sarahloo]

I'm sure we've had this argument before, but I don't think it's always okay to let the dog decide whether it wants to be touched or not. We have to look out for it, that's true, but we can reasonably expect it to leave family, good friends, all children and the vet alone. I don't see how that is too much to ask of it. Even Loo can do it, and he was a perfect mess when I got him, scared of his own shadow.
Isn't that exactly why dogs become unmanageable, by letting everything they do slide? Why not expect Leroy to not bite the friendly neighbor? In another thread about L's issues people commented that it sounds like he has the run of the house, and that is just not a healthy position for a confident dog like L to be in. He needs to be kindly but firmly put into place and he just has to stop biting people.

[Merlin]

let the dog decide whether it wants to be touched or not.

I totally understand what you are saying, but at some point the owner has to respect this breed of dog, from the perspective that if the chow only "tolerates it", and many chows only reach that level, that's why at random occasions, they lose their tolerance and bite. Simply put , chows are individuals, and some chows are better candidates for random touching than others. The proof is right here in this conversation when the owner can relay this kind of story. Biting and growling is their only tool to advertise their discontent. - some more temperate others will turn away, wince, or try to back up, or back away, but once their threshold is reached, will aggres.... and we are so notorious for not realizing this or ignoring these signs - yet we are surprised when it happens, just like some of us will unwittingly bend over to any strange dog and put our face right up into theirs and get shocked when our noses get bitten off. ???? How many times have we seen that?

Trying to force any dog to tolerate a human act, ( and that's what petting IS - a human act - not a dog act), is to put the owner, the dog and the bitten person in jeapordy. If you want a dog that can put up with endless, unsolicited human intervention, then get a labrador retriever and not a chow, and even they have their limits.

Yes, the chow should be tolerant of the owner, and the general family members, but outside of that, anyone is asking for a potential trouble, as you can see here.

Also, I can tell you from having been on both sides of the ocean, in general the European chows have a substantially different temperament than most of ones here, who have kept a lot of their primitive values.

Forcing a dog to tolerate something from a non family member can be fool hardy.
Nothing is stopping the friendly neighbour from being friendly.

If the home owner says it's ok for this person to come into the owner's space, eat, drink or whatever, yes, the chow should be respectful, kind, but it is written no where that the chow has to tolerate being physically manipulated. Petting is entirely a human act just like shaking hands is. Dogs don't pet each other when they meet and greet each other and they don't shake hands. To many dogs, un-solitited touching, it's a total invasion and violation of personal space. So sure, invite your neighbour over, and unless your dog goes to solicit cuddles, tell you neighbour simply to not touch your dog. It's that easy. This has nothing at all to do with a dog "taking over", or "running the household".

he just has to stop biting people.

I'm sure he will if people don't force themselves on him.

70 - 80% of all chows end up in shelters due aggression issues, and it's entirely avoidable.
And again, a well socialized chow doesn't mean it has to tolerate physical advances from humans.
A well socialized c how is respectful, not aggressive towards people and other dogs, and remains "tractable", when given a command by it's owner.

You need to understand the difference between an aggressive dog and a dog that simply does not want to be touched by a stranger. There is a huge difference. An aggressive dog would have torn the neighbours arm off, or made sure that person never stepped one foot on the property again. All this chow was doing was using the only voice it has for saying "leave me alone please".
We teach our own children this. Would you consider it appropriate for anyone to walk u p to a child and start touching it? Yet we seem to think this is ok for our dogs.

[Sarahloo]

Trying to force any dog to tolerate a human act, ( and that's what petting IS - a human act - not a dog act), is to put the owner, the dog and the bitten person in jeapordy. If you want a dog that can put up with endless, unsolicited human intervention, then get a labrador retriever and not a chow, and even they have their limits.

I walked Loo a couple of hours ago, the poor guy was walking with the stupid plastic trumpet on his head, and two kids came running after him screaming. I couldn't stop them and I was glad that he is in a place where he can tolerate that kind of thing. I'm just saying you should do all you can to get your dog to this place, to avoid any kind of bloodshed. What if I had never taught him how to deal with strangers? What would have happened then? Is an even temper not desirable for any kind of dog?
If Leroy is just acting up, then he should be told not to. Someone said that he sounded over-protective, and I tend to agree, esp. because of that hug thing I read about in the other thread. Don't you think Leroy needs work? Or at least that working with him wouldn't hurt? I don't think Leroy's mom can just leave things the way they are like you 1st post seemed to suggest!?

Yes, the chow should be tolerant of the owner, and the general family members, but outside of that, anyone is asking for a potential trouble, as you can see here.

That's the point: I don't think that person was asking for trouble by saying 'Hi!' to a dog that he had every reason to believe was his friend!

Also I can tell you from having been on both sides of the ocean, in general the European chows have a substantially different temperament than most of ones here, who have kept a lot of their primitive values.

Can't argue with that, because I don't know any American chows, but Loo reportedly did bite someone (out of fear) in the 1st home he went to. So yes, European dogs bite too!

Would you consider it appropriate for anyone to walk u p to a child and start touching it? Yet we seem to think this is ok for our dogs.

I would definitely ask my kid to behave when confronted with a family friend, just like I would ask my dog to behave in the same situation. And if a nice old grandma wanted to give my kid a pat on the head I would expect my kid to suck it up and bear it.

[Merlin]

What if I had never taught him how to deal with strangers?

What I'm saying is that the tolerance was already there. Maybe not developed when you got him, but already there.
Not all dogs are capable of the same levels of tolerance, and more importantly,
While you can generally condition a dog to tolerate a great many things, it has to already be part of their character to a great degree.
That's why " tolerance", has an un-predictable success rate. It can be influenced by many things, which can change from day to day

And if a nice old grandma wanted to give my kid a pat on the head I would expect my kid to suck it up and bear it.

A dog is NOT a human. They don't rationalize they way we do, nor do they process information they way we do.
The dog can be asked to sit there nicely, but it doesn't mean he has to accept being touched. That's how people get bitten.

[Merlin]

Any event, the second we reach up to him, Leroy bites him

I'm just looking for a clarification, because it does make a difference.


Does the above comment mean that Leroy took the initiative to bite the owner who was just standing there?

or does the comment mean the neighbour reached to touch Leroy? DId the neighbour make any gesture to touch him? It's not clear to me.
Thanks

[Loha'sDad]

Just because there was a "reason" for the bite does not mean it was a "good reason". This is the type of behavior that gets a dog labeled "vicious" and possibly put to sleep via a judge's order. For the dog's sake, not to mention everyone else he might bite, it cannot be tolerated.

Loha's Dad

[Merlin]

Just because there was a "reason" for the bite does not mean it was a "good reason". This is the type of behavior that gets a dog labeled "vicious" and possibly put to sleep via a judge's order. For the dog's sake, not to mention everyone else he might bite, it cannot be tolerated.

Loha's Dad

You're absolutely right, and that is why this owner has to learn to instruct people not to attempt to touch the dog. Society has zero tolerance for biting dogs, and the dog will always come out the loser.

But while you are correct that it shouldn't be tolerated, there are measures that we as owners can do to help eliminate the potential also.

The reality is however, that no amount of training is going to change that propensity , and the dog will always be at risk for biting someone if they are assertive enough, because in reality, all a trainer can do is suppress the behaviour ( it will always still be there - just suppressed)- hence the random failure rates. The owner needs to become excruciatingly aware of this and protect both the dog and people from a possible intervention. This does not mean that the dog needs to be sequestered away from society, nor does it mean that he needs to be destroyed either.

I'm not clear though, on if this dog attacked the person who was standing there, or if the person made overtures ( which I suspect).
That being the case, then it's a simple process. Simply tell people, "look but don't touch".

But if the chow deliberately went up to accost this person, ( which I doubt), then a huge problem exists then yes, the dog should wear a muzzle. but certainly don't invite people to touch the dog.

[Sarahloo]

And if a nice old grandma wanted to give my kid a pat on the head I would expect my kid to suck it up and bear it.

A dog is NOT a human. They don't rationalize they way we do, nor do they process information they way we do.
The dog can be asked to sit there nicely, but it doesn't mean he has to accept being touched. That's how people get bitten.

You were the one who compared dogs to children! I made it work, and now you want to take it back?

[Merlin]

I made it work, and now you want to take it back?

??? Your analogy doesn't work Sarah. A dog is not going to, "suck it up", simply because you want it to. In an ideal world, maybe.
But you can interpret this however you want. I don't think this is a realistic expectation.

[crickle_22]

I hope that you are able to resolve the issue and figure out what the cause was for Leroy to act the way he did. I understand the frusteration because Koda chooses which days he is willing to tolerate strangers and some days... well.. we just keep him away from strangers touching him. Since Leroy is used to this person and has been around him.. I am stumped as to why he would react the way he did... (as I am when Koda behaves this way towards people he knows)... If you find an answer... please fill me in. I could use the help too!!

[Victory]

Tuesday morning as Leroy and I were returning from our walk, we noticed our neighbour in his driveway so we ventured over to say hello. Jim has known Leroy for 3 years now. He babysits Leroy everytime we go on vacation, has walked Leroy dozens of times over the years. Any event, the second we reach up to him, Leroy bites him. Hard. Shock and confusion took over the first 5 seconds before I could pull Leroy back. I am utterly confused and saddened that Leroy would bite him, of all people. For no reason what so ever. Usually my daughter is the one who walks Leroy, but I like to squeeze walks in whenever I can. I also would like to add that my daughter and I are very soft spoken, and have never been mean to Leroy. This is the fifth person he has bit in his five years. Most other "bites" were justified in my mind in the past. Whether he had bitten because someone tried to corner him, or someone came around the corner to quickly and startled him were always ok enough in my mind to understand. But not this. I just don't understand how or why Leroy chose to bite Jim for no reason what so ever. i guess I just cannot let anyone near Leroy ever again...or I may loose him for good. And that's a chance I'm just not willing to take

I would have a talk with the neighbor, not as in blame him, but to ask him if he perhaps was doing something that got a different odor on him. I once changed shampoos and the chow I had then, started trying to nip at my hair. I knew he had a thing about certain smells so I re-washed my hair with my older shampoo and he stopped trying to nip/chew my hair. I would look for the cause because Leroy KNOWS this person, and even allows him in your home when you're not there, (babysitting) so it is strange behavior for LeRoy. It could also as someone said, be overprotectiveness of you. What were the positions you were in. Was Leroy standing in front of you, between you and Jim? This is a protective posture, and if Jim reached toward you, or even leaned toward you while Leroy was standing in front of you, (a protective place) then Leroy would have precieved that motion as a threat to you and acted accordingly, (bit Jim).

Chows get the reputation of being unreliable because they don't do the normal steps of warning, barking, growling, then biting. To a lot of people they seem to go to biting, without the warnings, but their body language often holds the warning, where they are standing, the tilt of their heads, ears etc.

If Leroy is being over protective of you, then there are things that you can do to correct this. One is if he is standing in front of you to protect you, pull him back to your side and make him sit. This reinforces the fact that YOU are the boss, not him. And you can handle the situation without his assistance. Also I would highly reccomend that you NEVER allow anyone to try and touch him first when he is on the street with you. Every dog, (chow or not) is more hyper outside, a bit closer to their primal selves, because there is so much to stimulate them outside, so they should be allowed to approach first, or not as they choose.

I would also look for a trainer to help. I say this because you may not be able to find a muzzle comfortable enough for him to wear. He has a very wide but short muzzle and that makes finding something to fit it hard. Most chows do not wear muzzles well, because many of the muzzles out there actually make it hard for them to breathe, (something that a muzzle should never do. Unless it''s too big then they can take it off by themselves.

[WeLoveLeRoy]

Just getting home from work now, and will be sitting down to read all of your replies.


I think I need to correct one important thing though. When I said we reached, I meant we approached. My neighbour did not touch Leroy, he didnt even attempt to pet Leroy before he was bit. In any event I am going to start reading. Thank you to all who wrote.

[Sarahloo]

I think I need to correct one important thing though. When I said we reached, I meant we approached. My neighbour did not touch Leroy, he didnt even attempt to pet Leroy before he was bit.

I think most of us understood! Poor guy! Is he okay? I hope you managed to preserve the neighborhood peace!

I made it work, and now you want to take it back?

??? Your analogy doesn't work Sarah. A dog is not going to, "suck it up", simply because you want it to. In an ideal world, maybe.
But you can interpret this however you want. I don't think this is a realistic expectation.

My analogy? You started this!

Would you consider it appropriate for anyone to walk u p to a child and start touching it? Yet we seem to think this is ok for our dogs.

Don't you remember? I thought it wasn't an appropriate comparison but I humored you and responded to it and this is what I get??
And yes, I do expect things of my dog! I don't see why anyone wouldn't!

[Merlin]

I thought it wasn't an appropriate comparison but I humored you and responded to it and this is what I get??

I'm sorry Sarah, I really don't get the point you're trying to make with all of this, but truly, I don't think it's of any benefit to anyone to spend any additional bandwidth on it either.

[Merlin]

My neighbour did not touch Leroy, he didnt even attempt to pet Leroy before he was bit.

Did you notice if your neighbour stepped or leaned forward, anything subtle like that?
Is it remotely possible that it was a 'play bite"? Was a vicious gesture? or was her possible trying to engage him in play?

Was the neighbour really close to you.
Was it a nip? A huge roar?

I'm not at all trying to marginalize the bite, I'm just trying to understand the 'why", because essentially dogs don't just want up to things and bite for no reason. Whether people find this acceptable or not isn't the point. For you it's important to know, because it will help you to know where to start your problem solving.

By the way, how is your dog's vision?

This is a stellair reason why it's so important to work with a trained professional , because they are going to pick on on signals and situations that you may have missed, and understanding your dog is really the only way to help move towards correcting the problem.

[WeLoveLeRoy]

Hi Merlin. The vet told us that Leroy's vision was okay for now, but the bottom of his eye lids showed early signs of entropion....but so far he was ok.

I initially thought it was a play bite as well but Leroy had bitten him too hard for it to be a play bite. I thought maybe he had gotten so excited to see the neighbour, and just lost his mind for a second. I keep playing it over and over in my mind, so as to try and get a better understanding of our Leroy. I honestly couldn't tell you if our neighbour gestured to pet him as we approached, but Im sure he did. It just all happened so fast.

[valerierichard27]

I think that if you want to find out what the probleme is do some tests. Example: if im in my house or yard and some one comes in the dogs are on thier defensive state, but it im on the side walk or out of thier territory they are fine. When my mother in law comes at our house, Romeo goes LOCO, he will growle the hole time and bark, but if i take him to her house its not the same. Its territorial. I would recommend you do the test and see what his reaction is.

[WeLoveLeRoy]

Hi Valerie. We actually detoured from going up our driveway, and headed over to the neighbours. So Leroy bit Jim in Jim's very own yard (driveway)