Cllicker Training for Chows?

[Buddha4me]

Buddha and I have been through two traditional dog training classes, and he did pretty good. He still doesn't not do well with coming when I call him, or stay. So we're on to round 3. This time I'm trying clicker training, it's the only training close by. We've only had one class, and I have to admit he does respond to that clicker. When I first got Buddha I asked my vet about training options in the area, we both laughed about clicker training, thinking that Chows are not going to respond well if at all to it. Has anyone out there done clicker training, what are your thoughts and experiences. I want to make the most of this. I just have a feeling that clicker training will help, but it is just different for Chows. Chows seem so different than any other breed I've had, and Buddha is my third Chow, but the only one I've raised from a puppy. He is 15 months old in case some one wants to know. Thanks for your input!

[Layla]

I like clicker training a lot. I often don't have the actual clicker on hand so I click my tongue(!) But i have noticed that it does help them understand exactly what it is that you are rewarding... i.e. what you are actually asking them to do. All the click really is is a 'marker' for the dog that allows them to learn faster.... I think it appeals to chows a lot as they like clear cut messages

[Laura]

We learned clicker training in puppy class and to this day click=treat to my two so when I click they come running for their treat. They are food motivated . I rarely use it but they remember.

[TJordan]

I've done clicker training with Butters. It was somewhat successful. But since he isn't food motivated it lost something on him. He seemed to understand that click meant good, but he was always more interested in other things than the treats So some things took and others didn't.

[Buddha4me]

TJordan-that's what I'm noticing is that sometimes he takes the treat and other times he's distracted by the other dogs. He will smell it, and then decide he'd rather look at what everyone else is doing! The trainer said to find that treat he can't resist, I'm wondering if that treat exsists! We're going to work with hot dogs tonight. Any suggestions for treats Chows can't turn down? I don't really want to give him people food, because he never gets it, but something has to give. He turned away liver treats last week in class. He'd rather check everyone else out, and he's kind of on gaurd in class, but does much better at home or when we're at the park. There are 2 big very energetic Labs in class, he's not sure if he wants to be friends or run for cover.

[Laura]

tiny pieces of ham or turkey and cheese worked for us but my two love most anything. I took a variety of treats to class because after awhile they would get bored. I would bring out the 'good stuff' later in class.

[TJordan]

We tried everything. Even Steak. He still didn't care. We did vienna sausage (YUCK) That was the best response but after a couple of weeks he was bored with that. He was just too busy guarding all the time. I never found a sure fire way to get his attention.

[KathrynH]

My two LOVE what I THINK (I'm not home right now, so I dont' know for sure) is Natural Balance Dog food rolls. We get the Lamb and Rice formula and they will do anything for that stuff! I give hand fulls of it to the neighborhood kids when they come over so that my Chows (Buddha especially) associate kids w/ goodies LOL We used that w/ the clicker training and it works. We've gotten to where we dont' even need the clicker, they just listen to the commands (sit, stay, etc).

[IliamnasQuest]

The theories behind clicker training are scientifically sound and will work wonderfully on chows as well as pretty much most mammals. The clicker is optional to me - I use an enthusiastic "YESSSSS!" as my reward marker (which is always followed by a reward of some type). This type of training has helped me put 16 performance titles on chows so far.

There are a few things that are really important. One is that you do need to find what your DOG finds reinforcing. Using quality treats in high-distration areas is going to help you tremendously. If you only use "people food" during training, it's not going to make your dog into a beggar at meal times - but it can really motivate your dog to follow commands because he knows he's going to get something VERY special. So consider small cubes of meat or cheese. I like cooked chicken breast or beef heart for my dogs. I've used vienna sausages (very messy but Khana loves them) as well as liverwurst or even roast beef from Arby's. I use high level treats where there are lots of distractions, and low level treats (biscuits or bits of kibble) in low distraction areas (like training at home). You can take some of the dog kibble and put it in a baggie with some bits of meat, too, to help the kibble become a higher ranking treat - the meat juices will soak in and make it tasty.

Another thing that's really important in clicker-style training is to work on YOUR timing. The proper timing is to click/mark a behavior JUST as the behavior happens. This means that when you're teaching "down", you click/mark as SOON as the belly touches the floor at first (even if you have to lure the dog down). Your dog will probably jump up at that point, but the behavior of the belly reaching the floor (which is what a down is) has already been marked and you can still treat. Once the dog is laying down on command consistently, then you can start to delay the click/marker word and the dog will start holding the down longer.

Another important thing is PATIENCE, which is hard for many of us. Allow the dog time to think. Keep a smile on your face and watch your dog. Let's say you've been working on "sit" for a few days. YOu say "sit" and the dog looks at you but doesn't sit. If you truly think that your dog should be able to associate the command with the behavior, just smile and wait and let the dog process the information. You'll be surprised at how often the light bulb comes on and the dog will suddenly sit as if finally remembering what it means. THEN you click/mark and reward. Just like people, dogs sometimes have to figure things out. Once they do, they'll start remembering more quickly.

High quality treats are going to really help you with the recall, too - I play recall games where I throw treats and then call the dog back to get another treat from me - and I run AWAY from my dogs when I call them back. They get to where they grab up the first treat and spin on their hind legs to race back to me. I want them to think that coming to me results in VERY good things, so lots of praise and treats and scritches and laughter when they get to me.

Good luck with your training, and never let anyone tell you that chows can't be trained!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Buddha4me]

Melanie-Thanks so much for the encouragement. Buddha is doing pretty good, until yesterday I couldn't find a food that he couldn't resist. Then my husband got out some grilled chicken breast for us to eat, and Buddha wouldn't leave his side. I took a piece of the chicken, had Buddha sit, and he loved it. I then had to take him outside so we could make dinner in peace. He's a quick learner and wants to learn, but he's still stubborn, but I expect that. He's my third Chow, the first one was trained and 6 years old when I got her, and the second was 2 and a wild boy, that was an outside dog, more my husbands dog. Buddha is all mine He was listening to my husband more than me, which made me mad, I control the food, I do the walks, I do the training, I let him in and out, why should he listen to him. But he needs to listen to both of us, so we are progressing. We've only had 2 classes, and he did excellent this weekend on his homework. Tonight we have to go to the park, and homework is always more challenging there, so many distractions. He just wants to go visit people/pets, he looses his concentration very easily. But we'll get there.

[Mia]

Melanie,

I have found that giving them time to understand is sooo important. Plus, I always encourage - I try not to let them fail. Mia just won a prize at a dog show for doing her tricks. (Nowhere near the level of tricks you and your babies do - just an amateur thing.) And, I was so proud of her. We practice before any meal and treat - several times every single day.

I just don't like the idea, that I would always have to have a clicker available. I would rather it be my voice, which I always know I have with me. I don't want the added element of a noise that I can't make if I don't have it with me. I want Mia to be able to respond just to my actions and my voice. (Just my personal opinion - I know that many people have found great success with it.)

Now, my problem is Chutters. He is either discombobulated because he is blind, or dumb as a stump. Mia learned to sit, lay, shake, wave at eight weeks, chutters is now a year old and we have tried to practice "paw" (shake) and he just doesn't get it. And, he is HIGHLY motivated by food. I tell him "paw" and touch him on his paw so he gets the idea - and he just stands there. He knows "sit", "stay", "go" and "no". And, that's it. He is not reliable even though we practice EVERY single day. I looked on a lot of the blind dog web sites and they only say to reinforce voice and touch - which I do.

Mia can do her sit, stay, go, paw, wave, lay with either voice or visual hand command. I understand that Chutters needs sound and/or touch. But, he just isn't getting it.

Any ideas?

[IliamnasQuest]

Buddha4me - very glad you found something he really likes! Having an array of things that the dog likes is vital to training. You might try other "people" type foods when you can, like tiny cheese cubes or tortellini or beef, so that you develop a variety of "training only" treats.

Mia - awww, poor Chutters! It must be hard for him to understand some things when he doesn't have the visual to help him figure out what you want. Since he can't see your hand, the concept of "paw" may be harder for him. Most dogs look at the hand and that becomes part of the cue. You may have to back up and just slide your hand along the back of his leg to gently lift the paw, and then reward for that. I would hold off on saying "paw" until his paw is up so that he associates the word with the paw actually being off the ground. He may resist lifting his paw at first, but as he figures out that it's always followed by a treat, I expect he would start to lift it with a lighter and lighter touch from you. Then you could back off and see if he will pick it up without touching - but it may take weeks and weeks of repetition and gradually backing off of the touch part of it.

You could also teach him "touch" where he reaches out his nose and touches your palm. This could be started by putting a treat between your fingers (I make a Vulvan "V" and tuck the treat between my middle finger and ring finger so it sticks out a bit on the palm side). Then you could put your hand in front of his nose so he smells the treat and say "touch" when his nose reaches your palm. Eventually you phase out the treat in your hand, but with him it may be valuable to continue with the scent by rubbing a bit of treat on your palm to guide his nose to your hand. I would expect that he would eventually be able to touch your hand without the scent, and then you can actually guide him with your hand to places you want him to go. It's a trick we've used on young dogs and it can be really effective. It seems it would be a very valuable behavior for a blind dog to learn, and one that will heighten his trust in the humans guiding him.

It takes a special person to have the patience to work with a blind dog, especially in a breed as independent as the chow! And I think it's great that Mia is doing tricks and winning prizes for it. My girls LOVE to show off - especially Khana, who wears that "laughing face" when she's doing her tricks.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Mia]

Mia is my soul a smart, wonderful baby and she just loves to interact with me. It gives her confidence because she is a timid, insecure, alpha wanna-be. We work every day to make sure she feels secure and confident. And, I do a LOT of socializing - believe it or not - it helps a lot with her.

Chutters is my heart - a loving, STUBBORN tank! He is so hard to work with. He loves me and loves snuggling, but has no desire to please me. (In the sense, that he has very little understanding of praise and hugs in a reward sense. He kind of takes it as his due.) It's almost like he is mildly autistic. When he is out and about, he is in his own world. No amount of "stop" or "sit" works with him. He barrels around like a tank. I know that he can't see me to follow me, but he's too fearless. I can't seem to communicate with him at all. He has to sit every meal and every treat and every outing, and he will still balk about 20% of the time - like he has no idea what I am saying. It's certainly taking time.

[WildThings]

Clicker training is starting to work really well with Fiona. We have not attended any classes (I don't think she would be welcome at a class...someone may try to touch her), but I use it for our training sessions. It took almost two months to get her used to the clicker, but now that she doesn't run for the closet when she hears it, she is starting to respond really well. I can almost see the excitement in her face when I give a command, she does it and gets clicked. She hears the click and I'm sure she's thinking, "YESSS...I got it right." So far we use it for sitting, because sitting took a very long time to teach (8 months actually), and she just learned "touch." She learned "touch" really fast, I like to think because of the clicker. It's just much more consistant than a cue word for me.

[Buddha4me]

Now we are headed into week 4 of training with the clicker and Buddha is doing very well. Last week he let everyone pet him! He is head shy, and anxious with men. After class I let him off leash and he went visiting to all the people for praise/treats and pets! He kept going back to the one man in class, he found a new buddy! The trainer uses him as an example of how to train, because he does so well, and he loves her. He does sit very well, heal pretty good, and down pretty good. This week we are going to learn sit-stay. We've never had much luck on stay, we'll see how it goes! It feels really good to see my beautiful Chow the star pupil! There are only about 4 of us that come consistantly, Buddha, 2 labs, and a small mix of some sort that is full of energy! They are all about the same age, but of course Buddha is more laid back, the others are kind of hyper, but it doesn't bother him, he does very well around the other dogs.

[Buddha4me]

We're almost done with clicker training and it has went very well. The trainer has been very helpful. And Buddha has become more social with people, men in particular, he already loved women. We worked on Stay last night, he really isn't into it. Baby steps work, but as we try to go longer or more distance he gets distracted or just seems to not care. This weekend he gets to meet his new vet, she better be open minded to Chows or we will be looking elsewhere. But I'm sure he'll make me proud. If I just just find a way to convince him to come inside out of the cold! Now that it's cold out, he wants to stay outside and play when I let him out to his pen in the mornings. Just drives me crazy!

[Bear's Mom]

Is it just me or are Chows picky eaters?? My Bear is so frigging picky when it comes to dog treats...he'll turn his nose up at certain treats and other things.

[Buddha4me]

Over the years my chows generally have not got people food, and not been picky, but Buddha is! At the vet he will only take the fattening treats, never the lean ones, at a drive thru he turned his nose up at pieces of fried chicken, for training he will sometimes turn his nose at cheese or baloney, which at home he'll do anything for, but not in class. Last class, he literally spit out the treat the trainer gave him, freeze dried shrimp (I don't blame him). But he'll eat any type of dog food, and thinks he should have what ever we're eating or preparing. I swear he can smell chocolate, he comes running when my hubby gets any, we have to tell him no chocolate for dogs! He is picky about store bought treats, maybe he knows there's something in there he shouldn't have!

[nelliegirl]

I tried clicker training with Nellie. She was so scared of the noise she would jump so I started using a very cheerful "Yess!!" and that worked alot better. She also does not eat treats ( I tried 4 different kinds and the trainer tried 3) but I found a couple of Cheerios does the trick.

[WildThings]

My chow Tess cannot have the clicker anywhere near her. The only time she has ever heard it, it took half an hour to get her to come back in the house and I got looks from her for two days that made me think I should sleep with one eye open. My other chow Fiona does great with clicker training. So when Fiona is with me, we work on clicker training, Tess is always with my parents.