Worth breaking the "guard dog" mentality?

[Millersho]

I've came to the chow board in need of some advice.

I don't have a full chow, by appearance she's mainly a lab aside from her purple tongue and curvy tail but inside her head I can assure you she's mainly chow so I hope I can post on this board. I apologize in advance if I'm not supposed to post on the board due to this.

My issue is that pretty much from jump street (we got her at 8 weeks) she's been very guarding of our house and still to this day( 1 year 5 months old) she doesn't feel comfortable around strangers or people who are not yet in the "circle of trust" if you will. She doesn't bark much but her hackles will go up and she will growl. I will say that she's never bit anyone nor has she ever made an attempt, that's never been part of the equation with her.

The time it takes for her to feel OK around someone new is slowly decreasing each month as she gets older and meets new people, but I don't think it will ever not be how she is.

Getting to my question:

I didn't ask for a guard dog but I'm finding that it has ALOT of +'s, considering I have an 11 YO daugther and she's home alone at times.

Also at night, she will not sleep in the same area as me. If I fall asleep on the couch on one side of the house, she sleeps on the other side of the house in our room with my wife.
If I wake up at night and then go to sleep in my bed, she will wake up and go sleep on the other side of the house or in the middle of the house by the door.

So is it really worth it to try and "train out" her behavior? I feel like if I try take away whatever causes her to not trust strangers, that her gaurd dog ability will then be trained out as well.

The lab boards online has been no help to me so I come here in seek of advice.

[jacqui]

could I ask you if you socialized her?
it sounds like she is fearful.I would start walking her and bringing her around different things.
DO Not let people pat her if you don't trust her.
I think you may just need to work with her.

[fillyok]

Welcome!!! We love mixes here too!! I have a knucklehead Chow/retreiver. We love pics!!

Anyway, I guess your question is should you attempt to change your dog's behavior. Good luck with that if she has a Chow mentality!!! It doesn't sound like it's been a problem for you, so why mess with it? Does she act the same way when she's out of the house? Do you take her places like Petsmart or around the neighborhood so she has the chance to interact with people? Socialization is a big deal with Chows. I have one that will probably never come around. She only likes me and I'm fine with that. I found a vet that is willing to work around her quirks.

As for the sleeping on the opposite side of the house...maybe she thinks you guard one side and she has the other.

[Millersho]

could I ask you if you socialized her?
it sounds like she is fearful.I would start walking her and bringing her around different things.
DO Not let people pat her if you don't trust her.
I think you may just need to work with her.

She's been around alot of new people.

I take her to the dog park all the time and I try to cross paths with people when we're out walking.

When she was a puppy, it would take her at least an hour or two to get used to new people.

Now it's 2-5 minutes and I attribute that to the work I've done already.

She actually is a very well trained dog, she knows many commands and she's very reliable, other then her fearfulness of strangers I can even walk her by my side without a leash.
She's very labish in her ability to want to always please me, it's a very stark contrast to her "stranger" behavior.

[fillyok]

Are these people new to you too?? Or are they friends? Maybe she's reading your vibes. It sounds like she's very well-adjusted otherwise. I could never trust mine off leash...they'd head for the hills!

[Dogdad]

Welcome to the forum, we love mixes

[Jeff&Peks]

"As for the sleeping on the opposite side of the house...maybe she thinks you guard one side and she has the other."

Thats exactly what she is doing, why would you want to change it. Its not so much a guard dog thing but to a Chow its home and family is their life, the only way to break a Chow of protecting its family and home is to break its spirit and turn it into a lap dog. Trying to turn a Chow into something it isn't in the long run you will come out the loser..

Be thankful you can sleep at all, My Chow goes on guard duty at 9 pm once everyone is in bed thats where they stay or she flips out she patrols all night which I find no problem with but on top of guarding the house she thinks she has to report back to me every hour, all night long every hour she pounds on the bed then when I say what's up she grunts and snorts for 5 minutes then goes back to patrol nails clicking on the hardwood floors all night until I get up.. I haven't had a full nights sleep in 12 years.

[Millersho]

Welcome!!! We love mixes here too!! I have a knucklehead Chow/retreiver. We love pics!!

Anyway, I guess your question is should you attempt to change your dog's behavior. Good luck with that if she has a Chow mentality!!! It doesn't sound like it's been a problem for you, so why mess with it? Does she act the same way when she's out of the house? Do you take her places like Petsmart or around the neighborhood so she has the chance to interact with people? Socialization is a big deal with Chows. I have one that will probably never come around. She only likes me and I'm fine with that. I found a vet that is willing to work around her quirks.

As for the sleeping on the opposite side of the house...maybe she thinks you guard one side and she has the other.

She does act the same way outside of the house.
That's where the problem lies for me.

She does pretty good around strangers if they ignore her, it gets pretty old telling people to ignore her before I even have a chance to say "Hi".
I found that if the other person has a dog, it makes it easier due to the fact they're not focusing attention on her and she can focus more on the other dog and not the human.

[kez65]

haha thats hilarious jeff....reading your posts are always intriging...spelt that wrong....but no sleep in 12 years...that explains you jeff.....

[fillyok]

I think many of us have to say "ignore the Chow". I have to do that with Ping...my quirky girl.

[Millersho]

You cannot train out instinctual behaviors of a certain breed...Read up on Chows and you will realize what you are witnessing is typical..A chow is not a dog..It is highly intelligent and extremely loyal..Trust issues will always be part of the breed...Now I can see why the other board is no help...Eventually, you will see that chows are a complete package with a great deal of independence and love..Be patient..You can do great behavior shaping with positive reinforcement and time out with negative behaviors..Teaching patience will be well worth it in dealing with undesirable behaviors...

Please educate yourself on what chows are and their typical behaviors...This sounds like a learning curve from your standpoint...Just ask for advice and there are plenty of us here who are willing to help..

Take care and have fun..

Thanks for the words of support.

Yes the labs boards didn't quite seem to really understand where I was coming from.
It took a well respected trainer on the board to speak up about his dealing with Chow's to even get some of the to open their minds a bit.

[Millersho]

"As for the sleeping on the opposite side of the house...maybe she thinks you guard one side and she has the other."

Thats exactly what she is doing, why would you want to change it. Its not so much a guard dog thing but to a Chow its home and family is their life, the only way to break a Chow of protecting its family and home is to break its spirit and turn it into a lap dog. Trying to turn a Chow into something it isn't in the long run you will come out the loser..

Be thankful you can sleep at all, My Chow goes on guard duty at 9 pm once everyone is in bed thats where they stay or she flips out she patrols all night which I find no problem with but on top of guarding the house she thinks she has to report back to me every hour, all night long every hour she pounds on the bed then when I say what's up she grunts and snorts for 5 minutes then goes back to patrol nails clicking on the hardwood floors all night until I get up.. I haven't had a full nights sleep in 12 years.

I love the home aspect of her mindset.

It's the "public" where I have the problem.

That really is my overall question:

Can one "train out" that mentality while out in public, but still retain it when at home?

I feel if I was do this, would I be "breaking her spirit" as you put it?

[Millersho]

The public's perception of chows is not reality based on experience. People have a tendency to believe all that they read and or hear without any first hand experience..You are right earlier when you mentioned it takes a person to think outside the box in order to properly appreciate the chow without the uneeded paranoia..

Yes, I received no love on other boards.
It was assumed that I was a "bad owner" or something even though my dog was more trained then 95% of the labs on that board by reading the posts.

I really appreciate the warm welcome I've received here!

I know she's not a Chow but for what it's worth, here is pics of "Lizzie".

[atphiladelphia]

Those are GREAT pics of Freud with his chows. I never knew about that.

It sounds like you have a good guard dog and your work is paying off. I would (like the others said) take his around strangers and YOU show him how comfortable and friendly you are with them and he may grow less suspicious of them. Your dog is gorgeous...I love the little brown noses that match their fur.

And Just a story about my chows...You would think most chows fit the 'normal' description of them...I assure you mine do not. We were a the park in the evening the other night and we were the only ones there. I walk penny and tucker on a leash at all times. A man in black with a rotweiler came out of the woods to walk in the park... I was frightened, and the rotweiler began to bark at my chows...MY DOGS however didn't even bat an eyelash. About ten minutes later they did not know what the pile of snow was along the side of the walkway and they FLIPPED OUT and tried to attack it. SOME WATCHDOGS.

Good luck and welcome.

ashley

[CoraP.]

I don't really have any advice, except I think it's great that you can walk with Lizzie off leash! I'd also like to say welcome and Lizzie is a lovely looking girl!

[Millersho]

Thanks for the pics.
It's cool to see so many chow's together.
I NEVER see any chow's around here, I wish I could meet a few!

[Millersho]

I don't really have any advice, except I think it's great that you can walk with Lizzie off leash! I'd also like to say welcome and Lizzie is a lovely looking girl!

I exposed her to no leash adventures at an early age, we have a really great dog park dubbed "1000 acres" that is basically a flood reserve area where the Sandy river comes into the Columbia river here in the columbia river gorge area located here in Oregon.
Lizzie has met alot of people and dogs at this place AND she gets to play in 2 different rivers in one day!

I even have a command where if she's in lead off leash, I tell her to "wait", she stops in her tracks and waits for me to catch up and stays behind me with until I release her. This is the command I use when we I see "strangers" coming up and we're going to cross paths.

I've found that if she's behind me, she deals with the situation much better then if she is out front.
The thing is, unless I correct her, she will take the lead and confront the person by default which I don't really understand why she does this cause she's fearful more then she is aggresive.

Again she has never made an attempt to bite someone but I don't take and chances. The "wait" command works well when I take her hiking her in the Gorge or on/near Mt. Hood.

[kez65]

jonathan those chows are bloody beautiful...oh my god...why didnt i see this breed for what they were....i love the chow..
lizzie is a cute dog..i love the brown color...so she has the lab color and the chow personality????

[TJordan]

Honestly most chows with socialization are fine around people. But they may never want a stranger to touch them (at least not until they can be trusted). I have a chow who is a bit nutty to say the least. Bottom line, nobody can touch him. I have to tell people he doesn't like strangers. He is fine around people as long as their is no funny business (like petting). He was socialized but he is a big chicken.

[Babs64]

We love chow-mixes. As you can see my Sophie doesn't look chow like either, but she definitely has that chow mentality about strangers. It takes her forever to get used to new people in her life. However, once she has decided someone is okay, then she will love them to death.

I think you are handling it very well with teacher her to wait until you take the lead in meeting strangers. When you take the lead, then you are letting her know that she can relax in her duty to guard you. And while it is a pain to always tell people to ignore her (I also do this) you are make her more comfortable and it may actually make her more inclined to check out strangers. I find that Sophie once she is being ignored will approach for what I call stealth sniffs. You can actually see her body posture become more relaxed. If she likes what her nose is telling her, she will even consent to sniff their hand if they offer.

P.S. Sophie is very jealous the Lizzie gets to go to a dog park with two rivers to play in.

[Millersho]

That's an AWESOME looking dog.
I love german shepherd and the mixes that come with them.


"stealth sniffs"

Ahh that's exactly what she does.

That's why it's important that she doesn't show signs of fear/aggression so that they don't look at her and she can come up from behind and get an idea of their scent.

If it all goes well, she won't growl at people, they don't pay attention to her and as we're crossing paths with the stranger, she'll get some whiffs of their scent and all is well.

When it goes bad, she shows signs of aggression, people focus attention on her and then at that point they obviously are on guard and so lizzie doesn't feel comfortable going behind and getting a smell. bad all around for everyone.

[IliamnasQuest]

Hi, Millersho -

The personality that you describe in your dog is not what you would expect from a properly bred, full-blooded chow. The chow personality can be reserved and aloof, but should never be aggressive or shy. The attributes you describe make me think that your dog doesn't have a lot of confidence and is using the growling and shyness as a way to keep people away from her. And when people get tense because of her actions, it sets her off even more.

Since it looks like you properly socialized her as a youngster, and that she has always had this problem, I would say that there could very well be some genetic components to the behavior. Unfortunately a lot of chows have improper temperaments (not to say that the owners of these chows don't love them and manage them properly, but the chows themselves have a genetic base to the aggressiveness and shyness that shouldn't be there). Genetic personality quirks are more difficult to overcome than ones that are simply a matter of poor handling.

Dogs are capable of learning, regardless of breed, and the chow is no different. Being mixed with lab - a traditional "obedience" breed - should help too. If you start her on a program of desensitization, where she is highly rewarded for not reacting to people, and not rewarded for reacting, then you will probably start to see a decline in her growling and overall shyness. To do this, you need to start by finding her "threshold" - the distance where she can be from a person with zero reaction (to the point of not even looking at the person). You take her somewhere where there are people in the distance and figure out where that threshold is. Then you start to reward her for being calm and non-reactive at that point. Gradually you move closer (maybe one foot at a time is all). When she doesn't react, you praise and reward her (really great treats - like bits of meat - are appropriate for this). If she does react, even if it's just looking at the person, you stand there quietly and ignore her until her attention comes back to you. Then you praise and reward.

What you want to do is build a level of tolerance, where her threshold of non-reactivity is close to the people. When you get to that point (may take weeks of daily practice, but it's worth it!) then you can start to include the people in the reward. THEY can drop the treats to her while ignoring her initially, but after a while you will want her to look at a person, be non-reactive, and look back at you for her reward. THIS is what she needs to learn - the people are not bad, you are the one she is to look to, and being calm means a reward is coming.

Now, your concern is that if you teach her this tolerance, that she will be less of a guard dog. I don't think this is something that should really concern you at all. Chows are naturally alert to noises and a dog with a background of reactivity is not going to let that go completely anyhow. My chows have all been highly socialized, very trustworthy with all people, and yet they're the first to let out a huge bark when they hear something that shouldn't be there (which then wakes up the German shepherds, who bark in that big low "mean dog" sound - NO ONE comes into my home unless they know my dogs first .. *L* .. just because the dogs can be so loud). Socializing and training my dogs has taught them to understand the difference between a casual person (who we think is okay) and a potential threat (noise at the door, for example).

Working with a dog with an independent mind is always a bit more difficult than having a dog who lives to please, but it's certainly not impossible. And teaching your girl to accept people and not be so fearful of them will help your family avoid lawsuits or difficulties with your child's friends. While your girl isn't biting, a bark or jerk of the head can make someone think your dog snapped at them (I've had this happen) and then you could have problems with getting sued. And since your dog has a background of somewhat inappropriate behavior, it will be difficult to prove your dog didn't bite.

Good luck with her, and I hope you give some of this a try!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
GSDs: Trick CKC/ASCA/AKC CD, RE NAP NJP, HIC; & Tazer (pup in training)
Chows: Khana AKC CD RE, DSPP (Therapy Dog), Service Dog; & Dora AKC NA NAJ
& always in my heart: Kylee (Chow) CDx4 CDX NA NAJ NAC NJC HIC BH;
Dawson (GSD) UD HIC; & Lady (Aussie) UD STDs

[Millersho]

Excellent post, thank you for taking your time with me.

I like the threshold idea.
There is a fine line in which she does or doesn't care about someone presence.