Advice about Hudson
Moderator: chowadmin
Advice about Hudson
Hey all! I've posted a few times in the past about Hudson, our retriever/collie and chow mix. We adopted her from a couple who spent little to no time with her, and we are really feeling the effects of that now. She is so, so grateful to have a family to spend time with nearly 24/7, but she is just so stressed about anything other than Us. Beyond stressed. And I'm not sure what course of action to take. It has been almost 5 months since we adopted her. She is eating Innova regular dog food and finally doing well on that front. She is eating it dry with no problems and will eat and drink when I'm not in the room. Yahoo! She spends most of her day chasing bugs in the house, and she likes that. But she is a barking fiend when it comes to anyone coming anywhere near the house.
We don't leave her at home anymore since she spends the entire time chewing at the gate, no matter how long (our neighbors have let us know it doesn't end until we get home) crying the saddest cry you've ever heard. She wont eat or drink or pee or poop when we're gone, so we figured we may as well bring her in the car with us whenever we have to leave, even if we can't take her out around people. Which is the biggest thing. She is absolutely frightened of people. Way beyond just shy or timid. Scared to death, belly to the ground, booking it out of there until she can get far enough away to bark the everliving patootie out of them. We love people, and it has been VERY difficult for us to manage this. And I started out with a calm attitude about it, but now I have started to scold and yell at her to "knock it off" because it is so stressful in our home everytime there is the slightest hint of a person near the house (let alone taking her out anywhere!) She runs around barking like a lunatic trying to claw her way out to them (even though she's scared of them! Silly girl.) I don't what to do. I thought about adopting an older, more aloof chow to sort of set a guidline for her, and then we'd have 2 happy chows to love! But I don't know that that's very realistic. I don't think a trainer or behaviourist would be any help since we would have to pay them thousands of dollars before they could even get close enough to see her. Sigh. I really thought I was seeing serious improvement and that if I just kept making sure she felt loved and secure, she would "grow out of it." Now I'm starting to believe people when they say things like "once a ferrel dog, always a ferrel dog." It's really stressful for our 3 year old, too since he is just so stoic most of the time, her running around like a crazed lady really sets him off. Thankfully she has never shown any hint of aggression to dogs or people. It seems like aggression, but she has never even attempted to nip anyone no matter how far past her comfort zone she is. It's difficult to convice people of this when she pulls out of my hands and starts running towards them barking.....I guess it's one of those things you'd have to see to get, though.
Any ideas at all? Have any of you every adopted a dog like this? I'm happy to give any more information about our situation. Thank you all!
-Victoria
-Victoria
We don't leave her at home anymore since she spends the entire time chewing at the gate, no matter how long (our neighbors have let us know it doesn't end until we get home) crying the saddest cry you've ever heard. She wont eat or drink or pee or poop when we're gone, so we figured we may as well bring her in the car with us whenever we have to leave, even if we can't take her out around people. Which is the biggest thing. She is absolutely frightened of people. Way beyond just shy or timid. Scared to death, belly to the ground, booking it out of there until she can get far enough away to bark the everliving patootie out of them. We love people, and it has been VERY difficult for us to manage this. And I started out with a calm attitude about it, but now I have started to scold and yell at her to "knock it off" because it is so stressful in our home everytime there is the slightest hint of a person near the house (let alone taking her out anywhere!) She runs around barking like a lunatic trying to claw her way out to them (even though she's scared of them! Silly girl.) I don't what to do. I thought about adopting an older, more aloof chow to sort of set a guidline for her, and then we'd have 2 happy chows to love! But I don't know that that's very realistic. I don't think a trainer or behaviourist would be any help since we would have to pay them thousands of dollars before they could even get close enough to see her. Sigh. I really thought I was seeing serious improvement and that if I just kept making sure she felt loved and secure, she would "grow out of it." Now I'm starting to believe people when they say things like "once a ferrel dog, always a ferrel dog." It's really stressful for our 3 year old, too since he is just so stoic most of the time, her running around like a crazed lady really sets him off. Thankfully she has never shown any hint of aggression to dogs or people. It seems like aggression, but she has never even attempted to nip anyone no matter how far past her comfort zone she is. It's difficult to convice people of this when she pulls out of my hands and starts running towards them barking.....I guess it's one of those things you'd have to see to get, though.
Any ideas at all? Have any of you every adopted a dog like this? I'm happy to give any more information about our situation. Thank you all!
-Victoria
-Victoria
Re: Advice about Hudson
Hey Victoria,
Believe me, I know exactly how frustrating it can be. If you look a few threads down, you'll see my Nova progress thread and how she's been getting better at everything.
Like yours, Nova suffered huge anxiety attacks while we were gone, was scared to death of strangers, etc. Rest assured, you can change all that, but it WILL take time. It's a slow progression. Nova didn't show any real changes till just recently (last week or so), and that's after months of behavior modification training.
For the separation anxiety:
Walk out the door and time about how long it takes her to start crying. Now go back in very casually, ignore her and act like you're doing something, then walk out again. Don't acknowledge her the whole time. If you do, she'll just learn "oh, I can make her return just by barking my lungs out". Ok, now this time return BEFORE you expect her to start crying. Same thing, ignore her and walk back out.
Progressively spend more time outside. When you can manage about 5 mins or more outside without her crying, leave the tv on. Once she's used to it, the tv will calm her down while you're gone longer periods. You have to remember not to give her attention whenever you get home until she calms down. Teach her that impatience = no love.
For her fear of people:
This is a tougher one. We're still working with Nova on it, but she's definitely improved. The trick is to desensitize her to the point of boredom. Get someone to help you. Start in your yard, where I'm sure she's fairly comfortable. Have that person go a short distance into your yard and have a seat. Sit down with him/her and ignore Hudson. She probably won't get close, but her nerves will calm down after some time. Don't approach her, but whenever she takes any step forward, praise her. Whatever you do, do NOT show any signs of disappointment or she might think that's you're not ok with her getting close to anyone.
Have the person leave, but you stay in place. Wait till she approaches you after the person left. Then give her a lot of love. Next time, have the same or different person repeat the process, but this time, farther into the yard. Continue to praise her for taking any steps closer.
You can also take her for a walk in a park. Whatever you do, don't stop for people, just keep moving. The moment you stop, all of her senses will concentrate on every possible thing surrounding her. Keep her focus on the walk. If she looks back (Nova constantly did this) or begins to focus on something else, speed up until she's focusing on the walk again. Praise her when she does. If she wants to smell something though, let her. It means she's comfortable enough to concentrate on something not out of fear, but out of interest.
After you've gotten her tired from the walk, find a bench or somewhere to sit/relax, preferably somewhere where lots of people are passing by. Because she'll be so tired, she'll be much less jumpy. Stay there and ignore her. If someone comes up asking to pet her, have a short conversation with the stranger by explaining what you're doing with her. Don't let the stranger attempt to pet her though, approach her, or even make eye contact with her. Stay there long enough until you can see that she's more bored than scared.
Again, the turn around time is not short. It took months of desensitization work on Nova before her showing any signs of improvement, but when she did, it was at a really rapid pace. It's like something has to 'click' in their heads, but once it does, they become a totally different dog.
Some of the members here can attest to what I'm saying because they've seen Nova in person and how shy she is, but at the same time, how much progress she's making. Just remember, praise when you get the behavior you want, don't punish/scold her for acting afraid though, because she doesn't understand the point you're trying to get across; she doesn't know you want to help her. You just have to teach her to teach herself that it's ok not to be afraid.
This was Nova the 1st day we got her (4 months):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ5FuPnCw3U
She pretty much was like this until last week. Then out of nowhere, step after step, she began changing and blossoming into a whole different Chow. Something definitely clicked.
This was her at Chow Fest this past weekend(9months):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmqhfI8YZPo
1 week ago, she wouldn't be caught dead next to a stranger, but at Chow Fest, she approached strangers, gave them kisses and even sat and gave them paws.
Hope any of this helps.
edit- holy crap. So sorry for this novel I just posted, it really didn't seem like much while I was typing it. This is a topic I most definitely relate to and do not mind one bit helping others who're facing the same ordeal.
Believe me, I know exactly how frustrating it can be. If you look a few threads down, you'll see my Nova progress thread and how she's been getting better at everything.
Like yours, Nova suffered huge anxiety attacks while we were gone, was scared to death of strangers, etc. Rest assured, you can change all that, but it WILL take time. It's a slow progression. Nova didn't show any real changes till just recently (last week or so), and that's after months of behavior modification training.
For the separation anxiety:
Walk out the door and time about how long it takes her to start crying. Now go back in very casually, ignore her and act like you're doing something, then walk out again. Don't acknowledge her the whole time. If you do, she'll just learn "oh, I can make her return just by barking my lungs out". Ok, now this time return BEFORE you expect her to start crying. Same thing, ignore her and walk back out.
Progressively spend more time outside. When you can manage about 5 mins or more outside without her crying, leave the tv on. Once she's used to it, the tv will calm her down while you're gone longer periods. You have to remember not to give her attention whenever you get home until she calms down. Teach her that impatience = no love.
For her fear of people:
This is a tougher one. We're still working with Nova on it, but she's definitely improved. The trick is to desensitize her to the point of boredom. Get someone to help you. Start in your yard, where I'm sure she's fairly comfortable. Have that person go a short distance into your yard and have a seat. Sit down with him/her and ignore Hudson. She probably won't get close, but her nerves will calm down after some time. Don't approach her, but whenever she takes any step forward, praise her. Whatever you do, do NOT show any signs of disappointment or she might think that's you're not ok with her getting close to anyone.
Have the person leave, but you stay in place. Wait till she approaches you after the person left. Then give her a lot of love. Next time, have the same or different person repeat the process, but this time, farther into the yard. Continue to praise her for taking any steps closer.
You can also take her for a walk in a park. Whatever you do, don't stop for people, just keep moving. The moment you stop, all of her senses will concentrate on every possible thing surrounding her. Keep her focus on the walk. If she looks back (Nova constantly did this) or begins to focus on something else, speed up until she's focusing on the walk again. Praise her when she does. If she wants to smell something though, let her. It means she's comfortable enough to concentrate on something not out of fear, but out of interest.
After you've gotten her tired from the walk, find a bench or somewhere to sit/relax, preferably somewhere where lots of people are passing by. Because she'll be so tired, she'll be much less jumpy. Stay there and ignore her. If someone comes up asking to pet her, have a short conversation with the stranger by explaining what you're doing with her. Don't let the stranger attempt to pet her though, approach her, or even make eye contact with her. Stay there long enough until you can see that she's more bored than scared.
Again, the turn around time is not short. It took months of desensitization work on Nova before her showing any signs of improvement, but when she did, it was at a really rapid pace. It's like something has to 'click' in their heads, but once it does, they become a totally different dog.
Some of the members here can attest to what I'm saying because they've seen Nova in person and how shy she is, but at the same time, how much progress she's making. Just remember, praise when you get the behavior you want, don't punish/scold her for acting afraid though, because she doesn't understand the point you're trying to get across; she doesn't know you want to help her. You just have to teach her to teach herself that it's ok not to be afraid.
This was Nova the 1st day we got her (4 months):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ5FuPnCw3U
She pretty much was like this until last week. Then out of nowhere, step after step, she began changing and blossoming into a whole different Chow. Something definitely clicked.
This was her at Chow Fest this past weekend(9months):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmqhfI8YZPo
1 week ago, she wouldn't be caught dead next to a stranger, but at Chow Fest, she approached strangers, gave them kisses and even sat and gave them paws.
Hope any of this helps.
edit- holy crap. So sorry for this novel I just posted, it really didn't seem like much while I was typing it. This is a topic I most definitely relate to and do not mind one bit helping others who're facing the same ordeal.
Re: Advice about Hudson
Thanks so much for your novel! (I'm up way too late, but I'm really stressing about this lately)
Thanks for the encouragement to stay positive. It really is difficult sometimes with children and chows, nevermind having both at the same time. I think I need constant reminders until it becomes second nature again. I especially connected with your advice about the separation anxiety. I am working on our new home during the day while my son is at childcare a few times a week and this would be a great opportunity to try that out. Sans the TV since we don't have one. Maybe a radio...
I've thought about getting a "home" for her to have inside the house, but then thought it might backfire and make her even more territorial.
It has been very difficult having positive interactions with strangers. Everyone thinks a dog is a dog and if you just pester them enough, they'll come around. I have gotten into a few bitter arguments with the in laws and guests over how they need to interact with Hudson (ignore her! that shouldn't be so difficult ay?). I can really tell the quality of a person by how well they follow that simple direction. The neighbor at our new place (we share a fence...definitely a new thing to get used to) thought that throwing a ball repeatedly at the fence towards the barking dog would get her to "come around." Otherwise nice people can be so freakin' frustrating when it comes to animals sometimes! Alright, there's my vent about that. I need to make it a mission to find good hearted, patient folks. You've inspired a couple of mantras, I think. "Surround myself with people who will show my pup compassion", and "Sweet, calming voices breed sweet, calmed kids (fur and skin!)"
Hudson is certainly more comfortable in her home and yard, but this usually means that she is on guard duty. Much less likely to warm up to people! Out on walks, she does better than anywhere else. I can distract her by just repeating " good girl Hudson!" and acting really enthusiastic JUST before I know she will bark and lunge at them. This works about 70% of the time. She seems to stake a territory if she sticks around one place, though.
Anyhow, rambling now. Thanks again!
-Victoria
Thanks for the encouragement to stay positive. It really is difficult sometimes with children and chows, nevermind having both at the same time. I think I need constant reminders until it becomes second nature again. I especially connected with your advice about the separation anxiety. I am working on our new home during the day while my son is at childcare a few times a week and this would be a great opportunity to try that out. Sans the TV since we don't have one. Maybe a radio...
I've thought about getting a "home" for her to have inside the house, but then thought it might backfire and make her even more territorial.
It has been very difficult having positive interactions with strangers. Everyone thinks a dog is a dog and if you just pester them enough, they'll come around. I have gotten into a few bitter arguments with the in laws and guests over how they need to interact with Hudson (ignore her! that shouldn't be so difficult ay?). I can really tell the quality of a person by how well they follow that simple direction. The neighbor at our new place (we share a fence...definitely a new thing to get used to) thought that throwing a ball repeatedly at the fence towards the barking dog would get her to "come around." Otherwise nice people can be so freakin' frustrating when it comes to animals sometimes! Alright, there's my vent about that. I need to make it a mission to find good hearted, patient folks. You've inspired a couple of mantras, I think. "Surround myself with people who will show my pup compassion", and "Sweet, calming voices breed sweet, calmed kids (fur and skin!)"
Hudson is certainly more comfortable in her home and yard, but this usually means that she is on guard duty. Much less likely to warm up to people! Out on walks, she does better than anywhere else. I can distract her by just repeating " good girl Hudson!" and acting really enthusiastic JUST before I know she will bark and lunge at them. This works about 70% of the time. She seems to stake a territory if she sticks around one place, though.
Anyhow, rambling now. Thanks again!
-Victoria
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sit_by_the_beach
- Rank 3
- Posts: 3030
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:20 am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Advice about Hudson
My late chow Luna was wild, feral. The chow taught me patience. It took nearly 2 years to tame her. When a neighbour/friend would come near us, she'd lunge at them. I allowed it to happen once or twice. When I saw someone approaching us, I grabbed the leash to about a foot or less. Impossible for her to lunge at anyone or jump up at anyone. She was a large, strong chow, 60 pounds. I'd suggest for you to do the same when approaching anyone. When friends/family were to come over, I kept the chow on a leash which I'd just grab when she became overly protective or wanted to jump on anyone. My neighbour's dog used to be like yours. They tied the dog on a long lead inside the house. Now that their dog is 3 years old, calmer, this is no longer necessary. Anxiety disorder is difficult, I am dealing with a mutt a the moment. I put up wooden baby gates and one day when I came home, he had chewed his way through. He's now confined in a metal crate while I am out. Long walks helped my chow to use up excess energy. We'd walk 2 or 3 hours, sometimes till 2 am when I came home late. This 'feral' chow eventually visit a hospital my mom was in and later a nursing home. Luna was very gentle with the sick and old. I was surprised how receptive the doctors and staff were. She moved around wheelchairs, other hospital equipment with ease. It simply took 2 years of percerverence (sp), patience and a bit of kindness. I had no kids of my own, I babysat a 4 and 5 year old niece and nephew. When Luna went into the guard dog mode, I told the kids to sit so they wouldn't be knocked over. I had all 3 trained after a year of baby sitting.
KARIN &
chowMIKKI
chowMIKKI
Re: Advice about Hudson
Victoria,
it must be very frustrating for you and your family trying to get Hudson to be a calm girl.others have given great advice and all I'd like to add is I think that walks are very important and if you could do a beginners class with Hudson to bond with her and give her confidence.
you are wonderful to care enough to work with her and help her to become the girl she should be.keep us posted on her progress
it must be very frustrating for you and your family trying to get Hudson to be a calm girl.others have given great advice and all I'd like to add is I think that walks are very important and if you could do a beginners class with Hudson to bond with her and give her confidence.
you are wonderful to care enough to work with her and help her to become the girl she should be.keep us posted on her progress
Kito Feb 4, 2006 - July 1,2007
Kai Mar.15 2007 - Aug. 26,2010
And when my time comes I will not go alone for my Chows will be there to say "Welcome Home".
Kai Mar.15 2007 - Aug. 26,2010
And when my time comes I will not go alone for my Chows will be there to say "Welcome Home".
Re: Advice about Hudson
Victoria,
Welcome to the forum, sorry I missed your first couple of posts. It sounds like you are getting great advice. I am sure things will turn around with the love that you have for her
David
Welcome to the forum, sorry I missed your first couple of posts. It sounds like you are getting great advice. I am sure things will turn around with the love that you have for her
David
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chowfrnd88
- Rank 3
- Posts: 4327
- Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:47 am
- Location: Maryland
Re: Advice about Hudson
Hi Victoria, I just sent you a pm.
This photo arrangement is the wonderful work of Sweetpea
Re: Advice about Hudson
I suggest that you discuss 'separation anxiety' meds with your vet. One of those will lower the volume on the flood of stress chemistry, and help her brain build calming/confidence chemistry. Even if you do that as a temporary measure, the shift in chemistry will make it easier for her to learn new behaviors, reduce her social phobia, and build her own confidence chemistry rather than using you as an emotional crutch. She may be resource guarding you for that reason.Vic-O wrote:We don't leave her at home anymore since she spends the entire time chewing at the gate, no matter how long (our neighbors have let us know it doesn't end until we get home) crying the saddest cry you've ever heard. She wont eat or drink or pee or poop when we're gone...
Re: Advice about Hudson
Nope. Take her out at least 3 times per week. Doesn't have to be for any length of time, just a quick walk thru at Petsmart will do fine. Be very brisk and matter of fact about it at first, then linger at the more interesting areas like the hamster cages and the cat kennel. De-sensitize slowly around people in the beginning and don't be shy about explaining that you are socializing her, for them not to pay attention to her or try to pet her. You can let people offer their hands for sniffing or offer her treats as you progress. Believe me, it can be done, Sophie was a buck wild feral and she came around with time, patience and persistence. I feel your anxiety with Hudson's situation, and sympathize entirely. You have to approach this problem with complete enthusiasm and confidence, though, she needs to build on that from you. Plenty of wild child chowparents here, and lots of success stories, don't think you will be the one with the untrainable chow. You can do it, and so can she, don't be discouraged.Vic-O wrote: "once a ferrel dog, always a ferrel dog."
Sandy
Owned by Sophie
Re: Advice about Hudson
You all have been super helpful! We just got back from a really nice walk, and staying enthusiastic helped me see a few things. We walked on a path that goes around the school/church in our neighborhood. I was remembering how easily distracted and nervous she was about everything going on within a mile of her when we first adopted her, and was really noticing what her comfort level is this time. It really has improved sooo much. And that's encouraging. It's hard to get that perspective sometimes. On our way back around there was a group of about 20 kids (12 years oldish) jogging towards us in spurts. She did soooo well. I just did my "good girl Hudson girl. Thanks for not barking sweet girl. Lad dee da" kind of talk just as she started getting tense about them, through to where she was bored enough with them (which is amazingly only about 15 feet on either end!). Then praising her in the voice that makes her shake her booty. When the group was about through, she was being so calm that one of the kids actually thought it would be okay to reach out and pet her. She cowered and got super anxious about the rest of the folks, whom she growled at but tried to sniff their heels (which made the kids tense and her get more anxious). So I scooted out of there and talked to her and petted her happily but I could tell she was just really tense and jumpy still. So I've learned a lesson. Don't push it!
I haven't dared take her to Petsmart. I just assumed folks wouldn't really get it and she would be too nervous. But you may be onto something with the critters in the back. That might be just the motivation she needs to make a quick visit. It's so hard to catch people before they start bending down or reaching out their hands (especially when I'm talking her through it). Do you yell to them from across the store?
So, Kiwani, what kind of meds do they use for anxiety in dogs? It seems there would dependency issues that could make weaning off of them even more traumatic, and make her less stable (at least now she's pretty predictable!) I am all ears about anything you think could help, but our family doesn't even take tylenol, so I'm a bit apprehensive. I think she definitely guards me, maybe resource guarding. I think we'll be able to see that a little better as she gets more confident. She definitely tries to be between me and the 'offender' when off lead (at our friend's workshop that has a dog she adores but has people in and out often). When my husband steps between her and the person, she will back off towards me so I can get her lead on.
So, what do you all think about crate training her? I think we definitely need to do this for when we leave, since we can't keep bringing her with us in the summer, and at least if she's not drinking any water when we're gone, she won't be running around dehydrating herself outside. I've just assumed she would be more comfortable outside with space to run, but now I'm rethinking that. Especially with closer neighbors. My question is, do you think it would give her an 'excuse' to run and cower and reinforce this nervousness if we left it available to her while we're home? This would probably only apply to when people come over.
I'll go PM you back now, chowfrnd!
-Victoria
I haven't dared take her to Petsmart. I just assumed folks wouldn't really get it and she would be too nervous. But you may be onto something with the critters in the back. That might be just the motivation she needs to make a quick visit. It's so hard to catch people before they start bending down or reaching out their hands (especially when I'm talking her through it). Do you yell to them from across the store?
So, Kiwani, what kind of meds do they use for anxiety in dogs? It seems there would dependency issues that could make weaning off of them even more traumatic, and make her less stable (at least now she's pretty predictable!) I am all ears about anything you think could help, but our family doesn't even take tylenol, so I'm a bit apprehensive. I think she definitely guards me, maybe resource guarding. I think we'll be able to see that a little better as she gets more confident. She definitely tries to be between me and the 'offender' when off lead (at our friend's workshop that has a dog she adores but has people in and out often). When my husband steps between her and the person, she will back off towards me so I can get her lead on.
So, what do you all think about crate training her? I think we definitely need to do this for when we leave, since we can't keep bringing her with us in the summer, and at least if she's not drinking any water when we're gone, she won't be running around dehydrating herself outside. I've just assumed she would be more comfortable outside with space to run, but now I'm rethinking that. Especially with closer neighbors. My question is, do you think it would give her an 'excuse' to run and cower and reinforce this nervousness if we left it available to her while we're home? This would probably only apply to when people come over.
I'll go PM you back now, chowfrnd!
-Victoria
Re: Advice about Hudson
Lol, no, just put your body between Hudson and the approaching people. You'll do fine.Vic-O wrote: Do you yell to them from across the store?
Sandy
Owned by Sophie
Re: Advice about Hudson
Clomicalm is the FDA approved 'separation anxiety' med for dogs, and human SSRI's are also used off-label in dogs. One alternative is theVic-O wrote:So, Kiwani, what kind of meds do they use for anxiety
in dogs?
nutritional supplement, Nutricalm, for building serotonin. B-complex and zinc are also two important building blocks of serotonin.
The high level of stress chemistry involved in separation anxiety, also has a negative impact on overall health. When stress chemistry is high, calming chemistry plunges. When calming chemistry is elevated, it becomes easier to learn new behaviors, and stress chemistry is lowered.