More Dog Whisperer

[socialwork555]

Ok, so I know a lot of you hate him, and that's fine. I have mixed feeling about our pal Caesar (spelling?) but since getting Paz three weeks ago, I seek any guidance I can get, and I like to watch the training in action, instead of reading about it.

So, first I want to say that his silly little "sch" sound does NOT work to get my dogs attention. I also want to mention that I really think he over-simplifies the whole process------often times the show alleges to fix the problems in minutes. Second, i like his approach about "dog psychology" only because that's up my ally, with the social-work thing, and I do think that some behavior is psychologically triggered.

So as you may all know, I have a never-ending problem with Gordo wanted to eat the cats. So Caesar has a chow/German sheppard mix on the other day, and they are mainly managing aggression with this dog. The family has the same problem with their cat.......the himilayan cats name was something really cute like "lovebug" and the dog wants to eat lovebug---he hates Lovebug. So Ceasar manages to involve the husband in walking the dog, and everything is going great, and then they calmly walk the dog up to the family, which includes Lovebug, and the dog is calm. And then the show pretty much ends............they acted like the dog was better----cured. The family always says, "he did it........I wouldn't have believed it, but he did it!" But this situation with the cat was NOTHING like the real situations where the dog and cat interface and I thought, "what a bunch of bullshit." You are led to believe that this family will live happily ever after in harmonious bliss. Then his "prescription" is usually a certain amount of dogwalks per week.

First of all, we have been avid about Gordo's walks since the New Year. And although he's both happier and healthier, he is more prey-driven to the cats behavior then ever.

Does anyone think that perhaps having a million camera people around and a peppy Latin man making odd "sch" noises changes a dogs behavior? The other thing is that his intervention always seems somewhat incomplete to me......I wish he'd just do one consultation per hour-long show.

So, tell me what you guys think is cruel about Caesar's training techniques? I haven't found them to be cruel---------more like unrealistic and incomplete. And what is wrong with the "Alpha Model" that he uses? Do dogs really NOT follow humans in the same way as they would their pack leader? And I also read someone's comment about it being cruel to lay the dog on it's side......why is that cruel? But more importantly, what of his techniques do you believe to be valuable? I mean, he always has the emphasis about the dog-owner being very strong-willed, determined-------and I AM that----but it still doesn't eliminate Gordo's aggression towards the cats or some other dogs, and it's hard for me to believe that the cause of all problems is due to alpha-confusion. I DO however, agree with him about dogs picking up on energy...........Gordo's behavior around other dogs is much calmer when I am not anxious.

Feedback, feedback, please!

[chowwoman]

In our pack, I'm the loving mom that gives out the food, but when trouble arises, my husband -- at least once in every chow's life with us -- gets put down forcibly on the ground, carpet or wherever we are, and told in a loud, angry voice what behavior will not be tolerated. My husband does it so well the dogs have never misunderstood a single time. Nor do they forget.

I can't read into exactly what is happening with Gordo and the kitties, but your biggest human pack member may need to 'plain it to Gordo next time he does it.

PS I love the show and he is trying to teach principles in a limited amount of time. Most of the dogs I see on that show are spoiled, pure and simple and need someone to kick their little prissy behinds.

[socialwork555]

I will try it! We've never done that before!

I am the pack-leader..........my husband is less strong-willed than I, and bends the rules more than I (I could have killed him the first week we got Gordo.......he got wings and beer for a game, and said that Gordo was looking at him sadly like he really wanted some------so he gives him a bunch of old bay wings, and then I was there when poor Gordo had major bathroom explosions in the house). I think Gordo knows that I am the boss of the house, and Kirby just isn't that firm when Gordo disobeys him. If I call "come here" and he ignores me, or looks at me and walks the other way, I make a big deal about it and am very disapproving. Kirby just sort of acts like it's ok, forgivable. Those are just our personality traits, and I don't see them changing, even for the "pack."

I am wondering about Gordo being jealous of the cats, perhaps........but really his behavior tends to be instinctual more than anything.

I still wish he would elaborate furthur on how to manage situations when they happen. Oh, and that technique of pulling the leash upward----that doesn't really calm my dogs down like it's supposed to. Does it work for any of you?

[Jeff&Peks]

All you see is what they tape and what they want you to see, Like a Chow is going to respond to "Sch", What is that? Unless its coming from the Owner, Isn't going to happen coming from a stranger and a nut at that. The Show is called the dog whisperer so they want you to believe he can do all this in 30 minutes by one simple whisper. any supposed dog trainer that goes on a national TV Show then refers to A chow as the chilling Chow is telling the world there is a problem with Chows. One reference like that referring to a certain breed especially to a breed that already has a bad rep has set the breed back 10 years in the eyes of the viewers. He is a dog is a dog trainer that just came up with a gimmick and people believe it. That Chow mix could have been sedated when he walked it up to the cat for all you know, you have no idea what goes on behind the camera and how long it actually took. There is a big difference between a Purebred Chow and a Chow mix, Who knows how much of a Chow that Chow mix was. The mix could have been the dominate Side and only had the appearance of a Chow not the Chow characteristics. Just because a Dog has a fullfy tail and a spotted tongue doesn't necessarily make it a Chow it could be a long way from being a Chow. Put a purebred Chow on his Show and let me see him control a Chow with a Shc then maybe I might believe him.

He has thousands of viewers if you believe him great, He works off the fact that people are looking for the magic answer. Weight control and Loneliness make millions of dollars from people looking for the Magic cure.

Leash jerking? sure bet any Chow would love the fight of that, they don't pull out of collars then take off down the street for nothing. Might be what they mean when they say ChowChow, Stubborn breed, will take someone familier with the breed or a dominant personality (not mean) to train it.

[socialwork555]

I think the show is more believable if you don't own a dog.........because then you can't try out the techniques and see that they are not particularly affective. My personal belief is that he does have a gift---I actually think he's more of a pet psychic then a pet-trainer. The likely-hood of all those animals behaving exactly the way he wants them is so slim.........I think he must have a gift to be able to communicate with them in ways the owners can't.

So, do you think the alpha model works with dogs?

[Jeff&Peks]

So, do you think the alpha model works with dogs?

If you are asking me, No.... And I also don't consider a Chow a typical dog so I'm the last person to ask about training, I don't believe in any submissive forced, I'm the boss kind of training. Sit, stay and heel are fine for people into bondage and discipline, just a simple "Pekoe wait" is fine for me and Pekoe. I don't see training a Chow/dog any differant then teaching your kids to live the way you want them to but I guess alot of people find that difficult also. unless your a circus performer or you want to impress the neighbors with your dog tricks I don't see any reason for it all. Even though Pekoe will sit, In ten years I have never had a reason to tell her to sit, Why would I want her to sit before I feed her no one else has to sit on the floor for food why should she, Pekoe doesn't like treats anyway so she sure isn't going to sit for one...

The dog down the street got out to day and the people are gone for the weekend so i have her in my yard, Pekoe and her don't get along, I just found that out but now that I have a dog around, Man they are dumb, even though he sits and lays down when I tell her I don't like the way she buries her tail and lowers her head when I say go lay down, all I said was go lay down she went into fear mode. she acts like I am her master. If thats what people want is a dog that is afraid of humans like that, No thanks I want no part of that. I want a companion not a hobby or a robot. If people are in to fear like that then now I do see a reason for Alpha and dog training.

[socialwork555]

Oh, I can ASSURE you that my dogs are NOT robots! But I do demand respect-----not fearful respect........just plain old respect. But I feel a bit silly having to relate myself to a "pack leader" in order to get respect. I mean, I am a human being, aren't I? I didn't see the red-dotted line when I got Gordo that said "henceforth you shall consider yourself a dog and relate to all others in your household as the alpha."

That's weird that Pekoe doesn't like treats. I don't know how you would train a dog to do anything without treats? We've made so much progress housetraining Paz with treats......if he didn't like them I would be completely puzzled.

[Jeff&Peks]

Pekoe goes by my tone and my reaction she dosn't need treats to listen nor do I want her to have them. I'm not to fond of vets eather so treats are out, she gets one cookie or chicken strip aweek, saturday night Pekoe and i live it up on junk food, Pizza for me, Chicken strip for her, we go all out and party on saturday night, junk food and a movie, I don't think she likes my movie choises though she never watches them.

[Auddymay]

Okay, I am not here to debate breed differences, except to say that each breed brings a set of breed specific behaviors to bear with everything they do. They also share a large amount of behaviors with all other dogs in the canine family. If you must look to a source for changing bad behaviors, I say use Victoria Stillwell before Ceasar Milan.

I saw her visit a couple that had added a 3rd Great Dane to their pack, and he was out of control. Mouthing all the time, dragging his mum on lead, reactive to other dogs- you name it! She put a halti on him to control walks, and put an ad in the local papers to help him meet other dogs in a controlled environment. When he grabbed his mum's arm, Victoria taught her to let out a high pithed squeal, then turn her back with her arms folded until he was out of play mode. When Victoria first arrived, the Dane was very subdued. This baffled the owner who said he never did that, and wondered why so with Victoria. Her answer was, "It's because he recognizes me as an alpha."

If you want to check out some of her shows, here is a link to 11 of them. http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1185642zmCX6bXy?c=imotd

[socialwork555]

Thanks! I will check those out!

[jacqui]

I love watching the Dog Whisper.now I'm not trying to start a war but I think Cesar is a great trainer for people who do know anything about training.he wants you to be consistant in working with your dog.most of the dogs on the show are just plain spoiled and they need more excersise.but he stresses walks because some people never walk their dogs.I mean you don't have to be a genious to know that but some people don't even think to walk their dogs.if they have a yard most all of them say 'well I have this nice yard so why do I have to walk him'?alot of it is common sense but I enjoy watching him.

[IliamnasQuest]

Well, I'll be very honest about my thoughts on Millan - the "non-whisperer".

His methods are archaic and are based on force. He primarily uses choking style collars (or a looped leash, also choking) directly behind the dog's ears where it creates the most pressure and pain. He uses this pain and choking to control the dog, but the whole time he does it he smiles charismatically and people ALLOW HIM to do this to their "beloved" dogs. And those watching him on TV fall for the same charismatic smile without seeming to notice that the dog is submissive because it's now full of fear.

That whole "calm submission" crap Millan spouts is fear submission, plain and simple. Choke a dog enough, create enough pain, and you will almost always get submission (eventually). They don't show most of what he does on his shows, although I have seen him choke a dog to the point where it folded to the ground and gave up. His "sch" sound is simply a sound that dogs learn to respond to. When you say "sch" and then yank on a collar that chokes the dog at the sensitive part of their neck, it doesn't take long before they respond to "sch".

He forces dogs to face fearful situations, like dragging a dog out onto a slick wood floor to make the dog accept the floor. The dog that I saw him do this to was showing all sorts of fear-based, avoidance behaviors and Millan simply didn't notice or chose to ignore those - and he dragged that poor dog out onto the floor. It was pathetic and really sad.

The only things that Millan promotes that I agree with are that dogs need more exercise (although not to the point of exhaustion, which he sometimes does) and that dogs need a leader to follow (although a leader does NOT have to be very forceful).

Some people get hung up on the concept of "alpha". The terminology doesn't really matter here. Simply put, dogs need to have some sort of leadership. Call it a family pack, call it good ownership, whatever - they just need to know the rules, know the boundaries, know that if they stay within the boundaries that all is great and if they step outside that there are some sort of consequences. This can be done really easily by controlling the resources - food, water, access to toys, access to outdoors, access to attention and treats, etc. When a human provides a strong leadership for the dog, the dog learns to relax and not have to try to act as the leader because that role is already taken. Dogs with good leadership, in my opinion, are happier dogs.

You can see some of the concepts of rules on my website: http://www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html .

As far as the cats go - I think it's likely that your boy just has a high prey drive. If he were with me, I would first set some very restrictive rules so that he had no choice but to acknowledge me as leader. Then I would start to introduce him to the cats and when he reacted to the cats he'd earn some consequences from the leader - depending on his level of reaction, he may get a verbal consequence or he may get a physical one. If he acknowledged the cats but didn't react, he would be praised and rewarded. It would be a slow process, one of desensitization as well as reward and consequence, and the likelihood is that a dog like him may never be truly trustworthy around the cats. But having SOME peace of mind is worth going through the steps to try to get him to understand that the cats are part of the household and belong there every bit as much as he does. A dog should be able to learn that "his" cats are off-limits even if his prey drive still makes him react to other cats.

It's not an easy situation - sorry to hear you're having these problems.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[chowwoman]

Melanie,
so what kind of physical consequence do you employ?

[IliamnasQuest]

You know, I hesitate to really talk about physical corrections online because it's so difficult for people to fully grasp the how, why and when of a physical correction. Done right, a simple physical correction can be very effective and can be done in a way that doesn't damage a relationship. Done wrong, a physical correction could create worse problems than you started with.

You have to know your dog, know what they can handle, know what physical correction will work with them psychologically, and know how to time a correction in order to have it properly associated with the behavior you're trying to extinguish. This is why I recommend that people find a qualified person to help them one-on-one with many behavioral problems. Trying to deal with it on your own when you may not really be able to read the dog's subtle signals can just make things worse.

A physical correction could be anything from a simple swat with one hand on the rump (no harder than a love tap would be, but coupled with a scolding word) to actually picking the dog up off the ground and/or rolling it. The alpha roll has its place - not as an "alpha" concept type of thing, but as a physical "I will do this if you don't behave" kind of thing that can mentally push the dog as much as it does physically. The thing is, most dogs DON'T need that level of correction if they're handled properly, and if a person does an alpha roll as a correction they're likely to end up with a dog that fights it (which puts both human and dog in danger of being hurt).

With a prey-driven dog, there may have to be some pretty intensive consequences for them to figure out that chewing on the house cats isn't acceptable. And a strong human leadership is absolutely important because without that leadership the correction is not nearly as effective. A correction from someone who is regarded as a person of authority and respect is much more effective than a correction from someone who is not important to the dog.

So much can be done with leadership and strong, consistent, reinforced boundaries. We humans tend to be inconsistent and the dogs completely take advantage of that (which is absolutely normal).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[socialwork555]

Well, I certainly appreciate all of your feedback, everyone.

After having Gordo for over a year I feel that some type of physical consequence is necessary in order for him to understand that he has limits in terms of the cats. If it weren't for the gate, he'd be munching on them. The first week we fostered him he went after Greens and I dove in and he bit the tip of my finger off (don't worry, it's been attached back on). I have just laid off of training him to be around the cats at all because I was afraid that in trying to get him desensitized the cats or I were going to get hurt.

But he really trusts and respects my husband and I now, and I feel as though there is enough trust in the relationship both ways so that now is a good time to try to begin some type of integration. Prior to this, I would have really been scared that if I attempted to roll him or something that he might attack out of sincere fear. The thing is, I don't really know that I could roll over Gordo. I mean, he's a bear! He's so stout, and I would be afraid that I was going to twist his joints or something. And then there's the "poke them in the neck" technique that is supposed to simulate the alpha dog biting the neck. I have poked my little heart out, and I can assure you that Gordo does not feel a thing! He's as tough as nails---the only time I have ever seen him actually "in pain" is when I am putting out a mat from his hair, or if I accidently tripped on his paws when he walked in front of me.

Of all of the Dog Whisperers I have watched, I have yet to find one that really deals head-on with my exact situation. I can't say that there are NO fruits of our labor..........my fantasy of being able to watch tv with my cat Snowy and with Gordo in the same room has come true. If I am holding the cat on my lap protectively, he won't hurt him---he tries to nip at his fat belly (does anyone know why they do that?) if he can. Previously, he would scratch the heck out of my body trying to climb up me to get at Snowy and start to breath in a crazed way, whining like he'd been possessed. We had talked to a trainer about coming in to really get this process in motion about a month ago, but then out of nowhere we got Paz (three weeks ago) and now our efforts are all towards outside pee-pee and not towards cat socialization.

What do you all do if you take your dog out in public and he shows teeth and lunges at another dog? I mean, Gordo's super-friendly, and then he just turns on the dogs. I don't know what sets him off. I know they say don't pull on the leash, because it makes them feel unsafe, but I am afraid he might bite the other dogs ear off or something. The other day at Petsmart Gordo was having a jolly old time with these two small poodles, and then BOOM-he lunges at one! The lady picked up her little poodle, and scooted away quickly, as if to say, "come on now, let's get away from these ANIMALS." And then there is me with this frustrated look of, "sorry, sometimes he acts like a weirdo." But I know Gordo's not the only one..........yesterday at the vet there were two dogs that looked like little killers (one was a pug, and they really wig me out when their smooshed up slobbery faces get angry and druel everywhere--his eyes looked like they were just about ready to pop out). And my Pazzy was a still and perfect sitting on my lap..........NOT A PEEP. He is SO well-behaved when he's scared of a new situation. (and it's the only time he will actually snuggle on my lap).

Anyway, I shall continue to watch the Whisperer.........it's like trashy magazines.......it's an indulgence. And boy do they put some WEIRD families on there. All in all, I think he's right on one thing...........these are our fur-kids, and just like regular kids, they need limits. The how of the limits can be argued--but limits nonetheless.

Talk to you soon!
Christine

[Lizabeth]

Oh, and that technique of pulling the leash upward----that doesn't really calm my dogs down like it's supposed to. Does it work for any of you?

You mean putting the collar right up behind the ears when you're walking it on a leash? ..It's always worked for me.. It always makes them much calmer and easier to walk for me..

[Lizabeth]

So, do you think the alpha model works with dogs?

I personally believe it does. ..For example, I established to my chow from the beginning that I'm the "alpha pack leader", and now I'm the one in the family she always listens to and follows around. ..lol even when my husband tells her to shake, she just looks at him like he's crazy, but does it the second I tell her to (without treats). ...When she was a puppy, sometimes she would test me, to see if she could get away with stuff...But I was persistent, and it paid off....

[socialwork555]

Lizabeth...........no, about the leash getting pulled straight up. He walks the dog normally, and then when the dog acts out of line, starts barking, snarling, etc---he yanks the leash straight up and makes his token "sch" sound....when the dog stops the behavior he lets it looser. When he does the pull-up the dog usually calmly sits down and stops pulling. When I do it Gordo does not notice. But, yes, putting the prong collar closer to the ears definately helps with the pulling, surely, but his technique hasn't been effective for me. I have also tried it when Gordo gets excited about the cats and it's not been effective.

We took Paz for his first puppy class last night.............as for the ferocious chow chow---he huddled under our chairs, and laid his head on his furry paws for the first 45 mins, just like the 2 pound chihuahua next to us............the rest of them were excited and hyper, interacting with each other, barking, jumping. Everyone commented on the teddy bear under the chair. Anyway, my point is that we are officially learning now how to be alpha. It was really uplifting-------everyone was so proud of their little babies. There's one that specifically seems like the "problem child" and even he did good---Marley is his name. Paz, because he was so calm, did extremely well learning sit, lay down, and the "push up."

I can definately say that the methods we used last night were quite a bit different than the dog Whisperer

[chowfrnd88]

Most of you know I really don't like the Dog Whisperer, like Melanie said his methods cause more harm than good. Plus, you all know how adament I am about the proer use of the terms "alpha" and "dominant." The fact that those terms are so misused by the general public makes me purposefully leave them out of my training classes. Which is a bit odd for me, since at my other job I toss the terms around all day!

I trained Special Dark with only positive reinforcement. He listens to both hubby and I. While there are a few things, like "leave it" and "come" that I always reward for, there are so many times that Special won't even take the treat. He does what I ask and he doesn't even need the reward.

While I haven't been in the training business for long, I have never ever used any physical correction on either Special or any of the dogs in my classes, nor will I ever. I will also never tell anyone else to do so, that includes leash corrections. I don't think there's any issue or problem that requires it.A lot of behaviorists, trainers and many leading authors in training and behavior do not advocate it under any circumstance. When I teach behaviors such as leave it, I excpect the dog to do so because the owners ask, not because a leash correction was needed.

[chowwoman]

A lot of that has to do with the age that you acquire the dog at...the younger the quicker and better.

[zingara_princepessa]

I'm with Chowwoman on this. In the wild, dogs understand violence, and I am a firm believer in it as a training method. Please note I said VIOLENCE...not PAIN.

When I found Orso on the freeway, the only thing he could do was "shake." He wouldn't sit, stay.... nothing. He was (and is) a food hound, I think because he went hungry in his previous life. He once...only once....took a cracker out of my toddler nephew's hands. He just snatched it right out of the kids mouth, and his teeth came very close to the child's face, too close for my liking.

I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, dragged him into the back yard and pushed him over onto his back. I grabbed his muzzle with my hand and yelled "NO!" I didn't hurt him, but he got the picture. From that point on, he gave the kid a wide berth. (Now the same toddler is a pain-in-the-a$$ seven year old and in hind sight, I should have LET Orso eat him, he's such an awful brat, but who knew?)

My point is that Orso never did it again. Message received loud and clear, no damage done. As long as the THREAT of the violence hangs in between the dog and the owner, you shouldn't have to ACTUALLY hurt the dog. He doesn't want to get hurt or to displease you so he'll do what is expected.

But that's just my opinion...I could be wrong....

[Jeff&Peks]

But that's just my opinion...I could be wrong....

I sure won't argue with the wrong part.

[IliamnasQuest]

My point is that Orso never did it again. Message received loud and clear, no damage done. As long as the THREAT of the violence hangs in between the dog and the owner, you shouldn't have to ACTUALLY hurt the dog. He doesn't want to get hurt or to displease you so he'll do what is expected.

Just a few comments on this - not going to jump on you for it, just want to clarify some things.

What you describe is basically the way people used to train many years ago. The dogs learned a fear of consequences (you call it a threat of violence, but it appears to be the same concept). Because they had this fear/concern, they learned to avoid certain behaviors to avoid the consequence. Yes, this works on many dogs. But from experience I can tell you that when you base training on a fear of consequences, you also inhibit the dog's ability to have a relationship with you.

Now, I know that people will argue that point - those who train their dogs through fear or violent consequences truly feel they have a wonderful, trusting relationship with their dogs. I know that I did two decades ago when I was taught to train using force. My dogs were SO responsive, SO connected with me that they listened to every command without fail. And because of that, it appeared that there was a very close relationship. It wasn't until I stepped out of the idea that my dogs had to mind because they feared the consequences, and stepped into the idea that dogs would mind because they were highly reinforced that I found how much more intense a relationship could be with my dogs.

If you look at it logically - we all enjoy people more when they treat us with respect and kindness. If your boss slapped you every time you did something he didn't like, you wouldn't enjoy him much. But if he handed you a $10 bill every time you did something he liked, you'd be looking forward to his company! Dogs have a similar reaction. Yes, we can force them to be part of our lives and to listen but you will NEVER (and I say this with absolute conviction, backed by many years of experience) have the same trusting relationship that you would with more motivating methods.

And with some dogs, using these forceful methods backfires in a huge way. I've personally seen dogs that were corrected harshly for any signs of aggression (growling, hackling up, lifting lips, lunging, etc.) who learned to completely hide those signs of uneasiness - and who would then go from quiet, calm dog to full-fledged attack. I've also seen dogs who completely shut down with harsh training methods. And then there are those who actually escalate behaviors because of punishing methods. You take a risk when you use harsh methods in training. Yes, it works on some - but at what price and what risk?

I'm not against corrections altogether. Sometimes a little fear of consequences is a good thing. My dogs know that if my voice gets a certain tone, then there's likely to be some consequence if they don't listen. "HEY, knock it off!" is something that they immediately respond to and if they don't, then I'm wading into the argument and grabbing dogs to stuff into kennels so that they can think about things for a bit .. *L* .. I use a lot of body blocking with my dogs, crowding them out of a room or a situation if they get a little snippy. It's a consequence they don't like but it's not harsh. Is it force? Yes, because they're not choosing it. But it's as mild as possible because I don't want to compromise my relationship with my dogs any more than possible.

I can get more forceful if needed but I've found that a highly positive method of training works best, paired with simple mild consequences as much as possible - and only harder consequences if the other methods just aren't completely getting across.

By the way, I hope that everyone keeps in mind that the reason the collar high on the neck works best is because that's where it HURTS the most on the dog. Pulling straight up with a choke type collar means you cut off their breathing. With proper training you wouldn't need to do that, and then your dog wouldn't have to have that pain.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[chowfrnd88]

Melanie's explanation was beautiful on that, the only thing I'd like to add is that one of the reasons that people do scruff shakes and those rolls is under the assumption that they do it in the wild. The only time they do it, is if there's a very serious fight. If a dog is pushing over another dog, they have every intention of killing it (outside of play of course ). The same thing with the scruff, if a dog grabs onto the scruff of another dog, he will not let go until the one whose sctuff he's grabbed is dead. So you cna imagine what a dog feels when their trusty owner does that to them, that is why the majority of dogs comply, sadly a number of them fear bite. The reason for that is that you are essentially fighting your dog (if you're interested in these ideas you can find details on them in Patricia McConnell's books). I've been studying animal behavior for over 10 years now, the first thing you learn is that yes, animals can be vicious, but alpha animals rarely engage in fights, only those individuals involved in a rank struggle, or those who are unsure of their rank fight. To be aplha is to be very calm, a look alone will get the alpha's point across in most species. If you're alhpa, you're enjoying the benefits: access to better food and other resources, and access to mates. You're busy expanding your energy on those things, it will serve you no purpose to use up the precious energy you've gained from your resources in fighting (potentially putting you at risk for death- which ends your chance at reproduction ). Since the current aplha male in my social group at work took power two years ago, he has never laid a hand on any inidividual in the group (neither has our aplha female), yet he is respected and very clearly alpha over our group of 30 or so individuals. However, the other members of the group, particularly the low rankers are constantly involved in physical altercations. Hope that explains the biology of it a bit.

I hope no one takes that badly, it's just something I'm very passionate about, especially the misunderstanding of the alpha concept.

ZP, it's good to hear form you! I feel like I haven't seen any posts from you in a while. How are you???

[Sojourner11]

Not that I subscribe to his methods, but he does say over and over that he rehabilitates dogs and trains people(or something to that effect). Meaning that most I see on his show, when I have watched it were owners that amounted to nothing more than doormats whose dogs had taken over in the vacuum of leadership.

I started off the same way with Marsh, and soon had a devil on my hands who wasn't gonna listen to anybody, good or bad. It is a long way back from that place, and until I finally said one day, I am not going to have the mental battle anymore and basically declared myself winner in the war of Alpha. He tried a few times to topple my reign, but he soon learned that I had realized that saying you are Alpha and actually being Alpha are two entirely different things. I was no longer gonna play at his level of mental stubbornness, for which I had no chance of ever winning.

It is the difference between having the wave crash over you and riding it in.

After that, our bond just got stronger and stronger until the Alpha thing didn't matter anymore, as our energies were aligned versus opposing.

Of course my gang now is a whole different deal, and I can pretty much use voice inflection to achieve results. The only time my hands get involved (outside of a loving touch) is to break up conflict between the girls. I will not tolerate fighting or ill behavior from those two and occasionally have to grab each by the gruff and read them the riot act, i.e "don't effing do that again!"

Solo is a perfect dog who only needs to be reminded to "stay down" as he is one to jump up on you.