Breeders: What to Look For?

[enchantedonyx]

How many times have you seen or heard of someone buying a dog and then just tossing them out. Not often.

You haven't been to many shelters or rescues, have you? I know a family who spent $1200 on a purebred, AKC registered Weimeraner and when she got too big and hyper, they got rid of her. My family has two purebred dogs (Chowchow and Black Sable Collie)that were both "tossed out". I have a purebred Turkish Van cat that was in danger of being put to sleep because she was impregnated by a non-Van- Thank God for her Angel from Heaven Can Wait rescue who snatched her away from the high-kill shelter in the nick of time. My point is- lots of people buy dogs (and cats) and then toss them out. Check the multitude of purebred dog/cat rescues on the internet, walk through a local shelter and see all of the labs, goldens, rottweilers, and other gorgeous, sweet, loving purebreds, talk to people who work in rescue or training.
Just because they pay money for the dog, does not guarentee that that dog will have a forever home.


And I'm not against breeders, either. A cousin of mine breeds/shows dogs and her dogs are some of the most pampered, loved dogs I've ever seen. There are good breeders. But there are plenty of scary puppy mills out there.

~Renae

[Sojourner11]

How many times have you seen or heard of someone buying a dog and then just tossing them out. Not often.

You haven't been to many shelters or rescues, have you? I know a family who spent $1200 on a purebred, AKC registered Weimeraner and when she got too big and hyper, they got rid of her. My family has two purebred dogs (Chowchow and Black Sable Collie)that were both "tossed out". I have a purebred Turkish Van cat that was in danger of being put to sleep because she was impregnated by a non-Van- Thank God for her Angel from Heaven Can Wait rescue who snatched her away from the high-kill shelter in the nick of time. My point is- lots of people buy dogs (and cats) and then toss them out. Check the multitude of purebred dog/cat rescues on the internet, walk through a local shelter and see all of the labs, goldens, rottweilers, and other gorgeous, sweet, loving purebreds, talk to people who work in rescue or training.
Just because they pay money for the dog, does not guarentee that that dog will have a forever home.


And I'm not against breeders, either. A cousin of mine breeds/shows dogs and her dogs are some of the most pampered, loved dogs I've ever seen. There are good breeders. But there are plenty of scary puppy mills out there.

~Renae

Very good point Enchantedonyx. Mich you need to go to any shelter and ask what kinds of dogs are brought in and for what reason. It amazed me when I was talking to the ladies at my animal control the stories people give for taking purebreds and others in to what certainly amount to a death sentence for thier pet. From "didnt realize their Great Dane wasnt going to get that big", to having a newborn, to (if you could imagine) they dont match the furniture! If you think just b/c somebody paid money for something they wont throw it away, well what world do you live in??? This is a throw away society we live in, and animals arent spared at all. I have three dogs, all rescues, all thrown away by thier owners, and yes, one pure Chow.

I wonder if all puppies could be chipped with breeder info that stayed with the dog his whole life, and these breeders could be notified when one of thier pups was about to get piled into a room with 20 other dogs on top of each other... all screaming for their lives which are about to be killed, would they continue to pump out more and more?

[IliamnasQuest]

I wonder if all puppies could be chipped with breeder info that stayed with the dog his whole life, and these breeders could be notified when one of thier pups was about to get piled into a room with 20 other dogs on top of each other... all screaming for their lives which are about to be killed, would they continue to pump out more and more?

I like that idea! The only problem is that those determined to make money from selling puppies would find a way around it, or change their contact information often enough to remain relatively anonymous.

I sure wish there were some way to make the breeders responsible for every dog they produce, for the entire dog's life. I know for me that's one of the things that holds me back from breeding - finding homes for each and every puppy that would be a "forever" home. I don't want to find out down the line that a pup from a litter I helped produce ends up on the street or in a shelter or mistreated. That would be devastating to me.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Sojourner11]

Well I don't want to see the government involved, but quality breeders who participate could and should get recognized for thier participation. It should be something that AKC (or whoever) should come up with and give out that seal based on participation. Those who don't have this seal of participation should be avoided. Take out the money and the puppy mills wont have a reason to keep going.

[Victory]

Well I don't want to see the government involved, but quality breeders who participate could and should get recognized for thier participation. It should be something that AKC (or whoever) should come up with and give out that seal based on participation. Those who don't have this seal of participation should be avoided. Take out the money and the puppy mills wont have a reason to keep going.

Many states and/or cities are starting to charge breeders extra for just being breeders, as well as astronmical amounts for unspayed or neutered dogs license fees for non-breeders. Maybe if the breeder entered into a program like the one you suggest the city/state would give them a discount on their breeder license fees?

[Rogansmommy]

I sure wish there were some way to make the breeders responsible for every dog they produce, for the entire dog's life. I know for me that's one of the things that holds me back from breeding - finding homes for each and every puppy that would be a "forever" home. I don't want to find out down the line that a pup from a litter I helped produce ends up on the street or in a shelter or mistreated. That would be devastating to me.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I know MANY responsible rottweiler breeders who do just that. Only rottie breeders tatoo the ear or inner thigh with the dog's AKC number. That way, if the dog ever gets away, all they need to do is look up the AKC number and contact the breeder. Several of my friends have taken their pups back at 5, 6, even 8 1/2 years old because of abandonment. They always welcome their litters back. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.

About 6 months ago, we had a vet come in to RDN with a foundling. All he had was 7 numbers/letters (some had faded) and a gender. The people on the board figured out that it was an ADRK number (different registry rottie people sometimes use in conjunction with AKC), recognized the letters as a breeder that posts, contacted that breeder, who ID'd the dog... inside of 5 days that dog was back home with his breeder. Oh and the breeder contacted the owner to let them know that they would never get another rottweiler if she had anything to do with it. Yes - ethical rottie breeders have a blacklist.

THAT is how it should be.

[enchantedonyx]

I know MANY responsible rottweiler breeders who do just that. Only rottie breeders tatoo the ear or inner thigh with the dog's AKC number. That way, if the dog ever gets away, all they need to do is look up the AKC number and contact the breeder. Several of my friends have taken their pups back at 5, 6, even 8 1/2 years old because of abandonment. They always welcome their litters back. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.

About 6 months ago, we had a vet come in to RDN with a foundling. All he had was 7 numbers/letters (some had faded) and a gender. The people on the board figured out that it was an ADRK number (different registry rottie people sometimes use in conjunction with AKC), recognized the letters as a breeder that posts, contacted that breeder, who ID'd the dog... inside of 5 days that dog was back home with his breeder. Oh and the breeder contacted the owner to let them know that they would never get another rottweiler if she had anything to do with it. Yes - ethical rottie breeders have a blacklist.

THAT is how it should be.

That's really cool. I'm glad to hear that there are some good, ethical breeders out there that take care of their dogs, all the way through. I hope this is the beginning of a trend among dog breeders and that more of it is seen.

I agree with Sojourner's comment that if the money dries up, so do the puppy mills.

[Matsuro]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Let me explain a few things though, what I didn't say was that if it was at all possible I DO plan on going to the breeder and flying with the puppy back home. So dont get me wrong with that. But, if it wasn't possible I was worried about shipping the puppy in the cargo hold. I've heard some sad stories, so I wanted to know about the airlines policies.

One person on another forum was expecting a puppy, the puppy contacted parvo and had died within three days. What I wanted asnwered was if the airlines checked on the animals that are flying within the cargo hold (in which they should do), shouldn't the airlines of realized that the puppy was sick and pulled the sick puppy off of the plane and contacted the breeder and the person who was recieving the puppy? Who is responsable? Aren't the airelines, since they didn't do one last check to make sure the puppy was okay? Because, it came to my attention that they can take the animals out to give them some more water or to take them out to relive themselves.

Also, I do worry about the temperament of the dog that are in shelters. Chows and Chow mixes local to me and surrounding me can't be placed in homes with other dogs or cats. They can't be around small children (I dont have kids myself, but my sisters' do; and other family members). And they dont really have puppies, only adults. I wanted a puppy to young adult (3yrs) cream chow chow. Many people know this, I have said it before. But, since I never had a chow before, I wanted to know what to look for in breeders and their breeding kennels if I was able to go personally. It all depends on the time of the year and how much the airlines are charging for a two-way trip.

Also, I know MANY breeders that charge $700-$1000 for pet quailty pets, or their fixed animals. Like Woodhaven Labs, they fix their animals or have all animals on a spay/neuter contract. They dont make any exceptions (though I dont know their prices personally, but I'm sure its within that price range above). That way you can still do obedience and other AKC events, but you could never show in the AKC ring. Now, what would you do if you wanted to show?

I admit, that D&M shouldn't allow just anyone to have full breeding rights, they should ask like other RB's if they are showing/breeding or doing any other AKC sport or event. If not should have those who only want a pet to have a spay or neuter contract, I admit they are wrong on that account. What I dont understand though, is that if the animal you are getting is a puppy couldn't your do your own OFA and CERF and DNA testing or does it lay in if the parents have it done? Because, aren't dogs different? Some can have hip and eye problems, but others of the same litter or litters later (same parents different litter) may be free of those things. Can someone explain that to me please?

[mytwodoxies]

If you wanted a cream chow chow - you could have had one. I was trying to rescue a 14 month old cream male.

I will also tell you that its fun to have an idea of what you might ideally want in a future dog (you seem to be razor sharp specific) and even dream abotu a name, but be open minded. I thought i wanted a long haired red female dachshund like i had growing up. But wouldn't you know, a black and tan BOY stole my heart? (and then a chocolate boy of questionable parentage joined him after that) He was 18 months old when i thought i would want a 5 year old like when i got my last dog. I wouldn't have it any other way.

As far as worrying about temperment of a rescue dog, there are many reputable rescues that temperment test individual dogs and have had a chance to see the dog interact in a foster home and can guide you a little perhaps on which dog you might be an excellent match for. And there are many younger dogs (under 4) because the thrill of a pup wears off for people. Also the advantage especially if this is a first chow - you don't have to worry abotu housebreaking it if its older than a puppy in most cases.

If no dog is currently local in rescue who is good with cats or whatever fill an application out so when one comes up, they will contact you first and you will already be approved. Most rescues have dogs that don't even hit their website because they are adopted out to someone who has ben approved prior and was just waiting for the right one.


I will tell you though even if you get a pup from a breeder you still aren't going to know exactly what their personality is til they grow up.

and as far as other stuff.
If anyone doubt thats offering breeding rights with everydog is not a bad thing, please reread all of the threadssome of the threads entitled "the big transport" or "please try to help". It all started with two purebred papered chows who didn't listen that they were supposed to wait until their owners got more established to start their little dream of the sweet life of breeding chows. The petite female almost died from delivering pups way too large for her. ANd the male forgot to read he wasn't suppoed to breed with dogs outside of his breed. (and 4 litters in 14 months later..)


a breeder can't control what dog a dog they sell with breeding rights is bred to. Once it goes out the door, you can't seize the dog back over someone's bad choices because property rights are stronger than animal rights in many places.

There was a dog offered "free" recently with full AKC papers and the guy offering said "you can make money with her guys, she has papers and is from a good line!!"

If one advertises on the internet that one sells dogs with full breeding rights versus "all dogs are spayed and neutered" you can make an exception when a dog is going to a legitimate show/breeder, but advertising loud and clear that they go with breeding rights is troublesome.

[Victory]

Who is responsable? Aren't the airelines, since they didn't do one last check to make sure the puppy was okay? Because, it came to my attention that they can take the animals out to give them some more water or to take them out to relive themselves.

Also, I do worry about the temperament of the dog that are in shelters. Chows and Chow mixes local to me and surrounding me can't be placed in homes with other dogs or cats. They can't be around small children (I dont have kids myself, but my sisters' do; and other family members). And they dont really have puppies, only adults. I wanted a puppy to young adult (3yrs) cream chow chow. Many people know this, I have said it before. But, since I never had a chow before, I wanted to know what to look for in breeders and their breeding kennels if I was able to go personally. It all depends on the time of the year and how much the airlines are charging for a two-way trip.

Also, I know MANY breeders that charge $700-$1000 for pet quailty pets, or their fixed animals. Like Woodhaven Labs, they fix their animals or have all animals on a spay/neuter contract. They dont make any exceptions (though I dont know their prices personally, but I'm sure its within that price range above). That way you can still do obedience and other AKC events, but you could never show in the AKC ring. Now, what would you do if you wanted to show?

I admit, that D&M shouldn't allow just anyone to have full breeding rights, they should ask like other RB's if they are showing/breeding or doing any other AKC sport or event. If not should have those who only want a pet to have a spay or neuter contract, I admit they are wrong on that account. What I dont understand though, is that if the animal you are getting is a puppy couldn't your do your own OFA and CERF and DNA testing or does it lay in if the parents have it done? Because, aren't dogs different? Some can have hip and eye problems, but others of the same litter or litters later (same parents different litter) may be free of those things. Can someone explain that to me please?

No the airlines are not responsible. They require a health certificate for any animal placed aboard, but because puppies travel at so young an age, it's impossible to know if they are sick or not. Parvo is tricky in that it doesn't show right at first, until the puppie begins to show symptoms and then it can be too late. I'm not sure if there is a pre-test to see if the puppy is positive for the virus, it would be nice if there were.

It sounds as if the shelters and rescues around you aren't chow specific and therefore have a poor opinion about their re-homing. A chow specific rescue recognizes the difference between a chow with no experience with cats and small childern and one that doesn't like them to one that is simply aloof and indifferent. However almost any chow can be taught to be just great with small childern if handled correctly. However if you have no experience wiht them it might be something you don't want to try. I would seriously recommend you going to an established chow rescue like west texas chow chow and rescueing a young dog with good training, (my two from there knew all their commands when I got them), so you can learn about chows first hand. A chow puppy has to be introduced to the world and commands and socialized just right or he/she can grow up to be a problem.

A pet quality animal is one that the breeder doesn't think will be show quality, so they never expect that dog to be shown. Obeidence and/or aglity or companion dog training these are different and the dog only needs to be willing to work and intelligent. Show quality means that the dog also conforms to breed standard physcially, tempermentally and intelligently. If you want a show dog, you have to buy a show dog and those are even more expensive than the pet quality dogs, often with other contractural stipulations. If you want to begin showing chows the best advice I heard from two show breeders here was to go to the dog shows, meet the chow breeders get to be friends with one or two see if they are willing to mentor you.

As to your last questions about OFA and eyes, thyroid etc testing. Yes you should have your dog tested if he/she is going to be bred. But without the parents and the grand-parents and great-grandparents also haveing been tested, there is no genetic record. And all of these problems are genetic, passed from one generation to another. Your dog could have perfect scores on all of them, but the mother or father may not have and therefore your dog could be a carrier of some problem and pass it to their puppies. Or they may only carry the ablity to pass it along like their parent so it would be the next generation that shows the problem. Genetics is a history lesson and a puzzle, that's why careful recording of problems or lack of problems is necessary. Good breeders of any animal speicies are also at the very least amatuer geneticists.

If you want a pet quality dog for obeidence, hanging out with, aglity, then you have a little research to do. If you want a show quality dog for showing, obeidence, and breeding then you have a lot of research to do.

[boot]

D & M Farm breeds for the AKC breed standard

? Then what's with the long, pointy muzzles (Rosy, Leo, Teddy)? I'm sorry but some of these dogs look more like the standard (AKC) than others.

PS - $850 for a non-show quality puppy? And $275 for shipping? That's a lot of money for a pet, but if someone wants to blow $1000, that's his business. I'd rather find a nice chow that looks like a chow, particularly if I can save it from a shelter. IMHO, if a person is going to breed chows, breed to the standard, or what's the point of having a standard?

[bama]

I don't know why this appeared in my note!

Anyways, as far as shipping - i think firstly people want to meet who they are considering for their dogs.

But also, airline travel is NOT 100% safe for dogs still. It is one thing if its a small puppy or a small dog who can travel with the person in the cabin. (under 18 lbs and short enough to be comfortable in the under the seat crate) But as cargo, there are some airlines in particular that i have not heard good things. I have heard of a dog that was "misrouted baggage" which no living thing should go through.
Also with chows having PR issues anywas, if the dog bites anyone out of fear in the process, that won't be good.

And wouldn't you want to meet the dog?

Doxie,

I have to put in my 2 cents on airline travel.
Yes, they can be mis-routed just like your luggage.
You asked if the airlines checked on the animals.
No one can check on the animals while they are in the cargo hold. My hubby (an airline pilot) flies a lot of race horses in the Airbus A-300 and the horses own trainer flies in the cargo hold with the horses. But, you don't have that option when shipping small animals.
Chows seem to have a higher anxiety level than other breeds. Having been in the airline industry, airline travel is NOT something I would put a pet through, especially a chow.
Blood pressure levels are pushed during flight, for some it's too much and they die. The smaller the body, the more pressure on the body. Ever heard all the babies crying during flight??? Also, the body swells with intestinal gas, which can be deadly to animals. Anyone who has spent a day flying knows about the intestinal gas problem, right? As if that is not enough, animals experience nausea more so than adults in flight.
Yep, I've seen some horrible PROJECTILE VOMITING!!!

IF YOU MUST ship your pet, I would use Continental Airlines, they do watch their animals more closely, but still no one watches them while they are in the cargo hold.
*NO, it wasn't Continential that I flew for.
American Airlines allows you to put a small crated puppy under the seat. But, animal over 10 lbs does not fit well under the seat.

I agree with MyTwoDoxies on another point, check the chows for adoption section. We adopted Colonel from a shelter in Ohio. Then, Alan and Sharon from Cleveland helped transport Colonel.
IMO, rescue is the only way to go! I didn't have to go through of the hassle of potty training or having the furniture chewed!

Good luck with your search.

[jerryo]

Boot and Bama,

Did you guys notice that you are answering a post from six months ago. The guy has probably found a Chow or given up by now.

[redangie24]

You know what that means we can corrupt this post with other stuff. I was thinking chow trivia questions. First question.

How many chows does it take to screw in a light bulb?

[Layla]

You know what that means we can corrupt this post with other stuff. I was thinking chow trivia questions. First question.

How many chows does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Only one.... that's how many it takes to instruct its human to do it

[redangie24]

Pretty darn close.... my answer

None that what their human servants are for.