I NEED HELP HERE!!!!! TALK TO ME!!!!

[vicster605]

Before you pass judgment on what I'm about to say for those of you that don't know me.....you have to understand that I have been dealing with Kearra & Kyra fighting for a yr now. The 2 WRONG FEMALES THING. They have gone from purfectly good friends to trying to KILL each other to friends again to fights every now and then to TODAY about 15 mins ago.......ALMOST THE WORST THING THAT COULD OF HAPPENED HERE.
My daughter and her children were here.... the baby who is 8 mos old was playing in her saucer, Cameron who is 7 yrs old and Cailey who is 5 yrs old were playing and we were all looking at pictures. Kearra & Kyra were fine and Kyra was in the kitchen.......I went to pick the baby up out of her saucer when Kearra walked up and was wagging and sniffing the baby.....Kyra came OUT OF NOWHERE IN KILL MODE & ATTACKED KEARRA!!!! This all happened at face level to the baby and they were up on hind legs runnig into the saucer......The baby was SCREAMING IN TERROR!!! The other 2 kids got out of the way and my daughter and I dragged Kyra who had Kearra by the face, to the wooden gate that my dh built and tryed to separate them.....it took over 10 minutes they even tore one of the boards down trying to get to each other after we separated them....you wouldn't believe the teeth marks in the wood. In the mean time the saucer fell because the 5 yr old was leaning on it trying to calm the baby down and we were on the other side of the gate trying to separate the Chows. I HAVE HAD IT!!!! Kyra goes from normal to NUTS MODE and there is absolutely NOTHING I CAN DO TO STOP HER and NOTHING THAT TRIGGERS HER. This was SOOOOO CLOSE TO A DISASTER & our 8 month old baby ALMOST GOT HURT!!!! I don't want to do this anymore. I HAVE HAD IT!!!!
God knows I LOVE KYRA & I HAVE TRYED EVERYTHING........but I'm not going to allow Kearra to be killed or one of the kids to get hurt.....like I said this all happened at face level to the baby.
Kyra NEEDS A NEW HOME

[vicster605]

Let me add my daughters take on all of this......she thinks Kyra has BAD GENES....and has a NUTS MODE. Nothing sets her off and nothing can STOP her once she is in this mode.

[Jeff&Peks]

Let me add my daughters take on all of this......she thinks Kyra has BAD GENES....and has a NUTS MODE. Nothing sets her off and nothing can STOP her once she is in this mode.

Kyra must have eat the bad genes in the yard she didn't have bad genes a year ago, Sounds like a jealousy thing going on to me.

[vicster605]

Wherever she got them Jeff it doesn't matter.....I'm talking about a 8 month old baby here. It was a female on female thing a yr ago. Chow war here remember.
SO what would you do??? Kearra was here first and Kyra is my rescue......let her kill Kearra????

[Mia]

Jeez, I can't imagine what gets into Kyra to get that angry with seemingly no provocation. It's hard to figure out a trigger when it comes out of nowhere. There's no chance of something hurting her or a problem - because it's been for almost a year now. How long did you have Kyra before she started not getting along with Kearra? And, as I recall, didn't the problem start back when Kearra first was spayed and then when Kyra was spayed?

[Lisa_D]

I am so sorry it is not working out! That was so scary with the baby right there! You really have to take your family's safety as well as each of your Chows safety. It is a hard decision to make and I know this must be a heart wrenching decision.

[Desi]

I've seen my Chey go nuts like that.I know when she's like that she might bite my son,or my husband.
Knock on wood,she hasn't gone bonkers in a year,but I am always alert ,and as soon as she starts to pose I distract her.
I would say Kyra was telling Kearra she's higher in rank and should be allowed near the baby before Kearra.
May not make sense to people,but it does to her.
These days they only play,they haven't been fighting anymore.
Would I ever put a baby on the floor with my dogs around?No way!So if my daughter has a baby and wants to come over for a month,we'll have to use baby gates when the baby is on the floor.
I might be able to do that for a couple of weeks,but I'm not sure I'd do it forever.
If you can't do it anymore,Kyra is better off somewhere else.

[vicster605]

Thats right Mia it was puberty....when Kearra was spayed and Kyra went into heat 2 weeks later. THis is the same reaction she has always had since then and to the same degree. She trys to kill Kearra. Thats why I say its female on female aggression and its ALWAYS Kyra that ATTACKS Kearra usually OUT OF NOWHERE.
This just scared the crap out of me because of the baby being right there......she wants to go and play with Kearra right now.....its ON and then OFF again.....
Kearra acts scared and Kyra acts like she just doesn't get whats wrong with her after she trys to kill her.
This isn't anything different then whats gone on from last yr just too close to the kids for me. She does have HD and has bad days from time to time but hasn't had any problems since I started her on Joint Max and not at all lately. JUST NUTS one minute and her sweet self the next.

[vicster605]

Desi we were right there and the baby wasn't on the floor but in a saucer looks like what we called a walker back in the day, the Chows usually don't give more than a few minutes of any attention to the kids and usually never to the baby. Kyra would have made a WONDERFUL ONLY Chow. But she doesn't get along with Kearra. I'm afraid that one day she is going to kill her she is 60 lbs and Kearra is only 34. We have LOTS of kids around here ALL THE TIME so the problem with the baby gates is the kids open them and then the Chows are back together. I have tryed to keep the separated at the worst of all of this and it was almost impossible but we did ok with it but now there are even more kids around.

[vicster605]

And there is maybe a 2 second pose and today there WAS NONE she just jumped.
You have no idea how heart wrenching what I'm saying is.....I LOVE KYRA and have raised her and trained her and LOVED her and she loves me. I saved her life and fixed her eyes, spayed her and dealt with all this for a yr and even spent $700 on her wounds from a fight she started. Shes a sweetheart otherwise and I still LOVE her. Just heartbreaking but this is NO WAY to live, the kids talk about how they fight and try and kill each other.....if you could see the looks on their faces...not good for Kyra, Kearra, any of my family and just heartbreaking for me.
If anyone will take her I will bring her to you??? I will help with her any way I can.....I LOVE her

[Jeff&Peks]

Wherever she got them Jeff it doesn't matter.....I'm talking about a 8 month old baby here. It was a female on female thing a yr ago. Chow war here remember.
SO what would you do??? Kearra was here first and Kyra is my rescue......let her kill Kearra????

Nope, I know Pekoes doesn't like little chillin's or other dogs so I fenced the back yard in half, pekoe has access threw my bedroom to her side of the yard, when people come over especially babies I know there might be a problem so I put her in my room then she goes out on her side of the yard and is able to see what's going on and who's there, she is still involved from her side of the yard. I knew Pekoe wasn't to pleased with totlers 11 years ago so I take care of the problem before it becomes a problem I've been there done that with the growling and snapping at kids, no problem I take care of it. Humans will be rehomed before Pekoe ever is that's why I make sure it doesn't happen way in advance, say like when the Chow is first born?

You already knew you were having problems with Kyra so why put her in a room with babies and people running around, You set up that problem not Kyra. If the two chows don't get along nothing like haveing them together at a family function. As I always say "Human created"



Littles Chillins = Oaklands way of saying little children.

[KathrynH]

OH, I'm so sorry to hear this! I know you've been trying to hard to make it work. Could it be some kind of imbalance that could be medicated?

[Auddymay]

I'm sorry for your troubles. It is a hard thing to deal with, always being a gate keeper, and then when you let your gaurd down...I do think it will be hard to place her because of the HD. I will offer my opinion. Separate, and keep them separated except for controlled situations. This was likely a sensory overload for Kyra, and she sought relief the way she has in the past- on poor Kearra. Think about it- 2 kids, a baby, Kearra, the boxer Lily, and the adults. All engaged in their activities and for Kyra, too much. That was the trigger. Too much of everything. Some Chows can't handle it, and I think Kyra is in that group. In addition, though she CAN get along with Kearra, she needed to blow steam, and boom. Lily hates it when there is too much activity, and too many people. Her strategy is retreat. Kyra's, you well know. I will keep an ear to the ground for a new home for her, though. I am sure this is killing you Vicky. It is not easy to make this decision. Until then, no matter how well they are getting along, do not let them together around the children. Only controlled situations.

[Jen1027]

Wherever she got them Jeff it doesn't matter.....I'm talking about a 8 month old baby here. It was a female on female thing a yr ago. Chow war here remember.
SO what would you do??? Kearra was here first and Kyra is my rescue......let her kill Kearra????

Nope, I know Pekoes doesn't like little chillin's or other dogs so I fenced the back yard in half, pekoe has access threw my bedroom to her side of the yard, when people come over especially babies I know there might be a problem so I put her in my room then she goes out on her side of the yard and is able to see what's going on and who's there, she is still involved from her side of the yard. I knew Pekoe wasn't to pleased with totlers 11 years ago so I take care of the problem before it becomes a problem I've been there done that with the growling and snapping at kids, no problem I take care of it. Humans will be rehomed before Pekoe ever is that's why I make sure it doesn't happen way in advance, say like when the Chow is first born?

You already knew you were having problems with Kyra so why put her in a room with babies and people running around, You set up that problem not Kyra. If the two chows don't get along nothing like have them together at a family function. As I always say "Human created"



Littles Chillins = Oaklands way of saying little children.

Okay, coming from a person who was there..... this is vicster's daughter. I have witnessed many many of the fights between kearra and kyra. I was there in the room with my children or as they are so lovingly refered to as "chillins". What you don't seem to quite understand is that Kearra and Kyra are now getting along with one another 95% of the time. They weren't put into the same room.They were actually playing with one another 10min befor the episode occured. Kyra was bowing down at Kearra in hopes that she'd play with her. There was absolutely nothing done to Kyra that prevoked her to attack Kearra.
My mom has done everything in her power to prevent them from fighting starting when they first began their inability to get along. There was a gate built, she actually had to put them outside separatly and bring them in separatley, feed separatley, walk separatley. But this was in the beginning. The way that you are inturpariting things make it sound as though we put them in a room together with a bunch of chillins and expected them not to fight when the fight everyday. This is not the case they get along with eachother the majoity of the time as they were getting along withe eachother 10 min befor. There was no indication that kyra was upset. Had there been some indication ;like kyra acting as though she were upset or reserved, one of the two would have been put outside the gate. The situation tonight was not human created. It was a dog who needs to be the only dog in the house. Because there is no way of correcting bad behavior because she has no clue of what she did wrong. She has an attack mode when it comes to kearra, otherwise she is a big goober and very loving.

[Jeff&Peks]

If it wasn't Human created how was Kyra so close to the baby not to mention in the same room and all of you already knew Kyra was a problem. Come up with all the ecuses you want others will buy it , pray for you and say how sorry they are for you so just ignore me. I actually said more then I had planned I gave up on this rehoming bull long ago. just put Kyra with the other 50 Chows needing a home someone will get around to her.

[Zhuyos mom]

Before you can find a new home for Kyra, you need to try to figure out the 5% that is triggering things. The new owners need to know or they may not be as compassionate and tolerant to Kyra as you have been.

Be it from me to offer advice, however, just because Kearra was there first doesn't automatically make her the top chow in the house. It really does seem like Kyra is the top chow. Heirachy not imposed by you but between the two. There may not have been an immediate visual to the family as to what triggered this fight, but as one who is reading what you wrote, Kyra may have thought Kearra was getting something special from you. Meaning, Kyra must always get the first of things from you (in their chow order) not Kearra. So, without thinking, Kyra went after and bounded onto Kearra just because in their circle, Kearra should have known better. I'm not sure if you've physically shifted the two in terms of who gets fed first or who gets to go out first, but if you haven't, you should give it a little try. It might make a big difference and Kyra won't have to always be on edge defending her title.

Just a tip in separating them. Have a round plastic laundry basket around and use that to separate them, it's also a good muzzle type of thing that will help calm them down and into their individual corners.

[Jen1027]

If it wasn't Human created how was Kyra so close to the baby not to mention in the same room and all of you already knew Kyra was a problem. Come up with all the ecuses you want others will buy it , pray for you and say how sorry they are for you so just ignore me. I actually said more then I had planned I gave up on this rehoming bull long ago. just put Kyra with the other 50 Chows needing a home someone will get around to her.

Kyra was actually no where near the baby. The baby was playing in her toy. Kyra 30 seconds befor the attack was out of sight. Kyra nor kearra have ever been anything other than loving when around the kids. There has never been any problem with either of them being around the kids. So why wouldn't she be in the same room? Kearra came up to us to see what we were doing (looking at pics by the baby) and from no where Kyra attacked kearra. For what reason? We don't really know. No one is looking for sympathy we'd simply like to find someone who wants kyra period. Why would you want to ridicule someone who is looking for help and try to make them feel guilty? There's alot to be said for if ya can't say anything nice.........

[Mia]

It might really work to promote Kyra as top dog. Make sure that she gets catered to, fed, waters, treated (given treats) first. Kyra might not feel threatened and the need to defend her top dog status. (Notice, i am staying away from the "Alpha" word.) Kearra probably would feel more comfortable - she wouldn't have the choice to make a mistake.

It's worth a try - even if eventually you might need to find another place for Kyra or even keep her separated. I don't know what else would upset Kyra like that.

[Laura]

First of all let me say this...JEFF SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP!
Secondly Vicki I am so sorry. I have lived it...I know what it is like as you know and only you can make this decision. We will help you anyway we can. Keep them separated...take a breath...and you'll get it figured out.
Jenn...ignore Jeff...it is pointless to try and reason or argue or even comment to his comments.

[Jeff&Peks]

"Why would you want to ridicule someone who is looking for help and try to make them feel guilty? There's alot to be said for if ya can't say anything nice........."

Ask you Mom.

"First of all let me say this...JEFF SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP!"

I was going to until you had to butt in , As I said, All the sympathy they need, Yep ignore me Laura will fix it and tell you what you want to hear.

[FNG]

I can only see confusion in naming these 2 dogs such similar names.
Chows are not listening to our every word.
What they are hearing is ???????ra .

[Boogie and Linda]

Having been through this same thing, I know how scary it is when they fight like that. I am sorry that you and your family went through that. In my house, Fozzie is the one who goes off without any obvious warnings. I agree with what Auddymay that there was stresses to Kyra. With Fozzie any kind of commotion (as simple as one of us coming home or the neighbor bringing out their trash) sets him off. He will actually find Teddie and attack him any time anything stresses him. Teddie is his outlet. I am learning to tell when little things are starting to rile him up. I also only let them in the house together when they have leashes attached so if any signs start to show I can step on Fozzie's leash to stop him. If he doesn't have a leash and we try to grab him by his collar he will turn and snap at us so he has to always have a leash. Jealousy is also something that sets Fozzie off so Zhuyo's mom may be right. Kyra thought that Kearra was getting something that she wasn't. I don't know how often the kids are there but is it possible to keep both of the chows away while they are there or to put them on leashes. Both Fozzie and Teddie get tethered to furniture in the house when we all just want to settle and don't want them to attack the cat or when our grandson comes for the weekend. They are at opposite sides of the room Fozzie is tethered to the leg of the coutch and Teddie to the leg of the desk. The each get a treat and they are fine. I have also made more of an effort to walk them more. The attacking has gotten to be a lot less because they are so tired every night.

I don't have any clear answers for you but hang in there. I hope you are able to keep Kyra, believe me I know how you feel. The last time Fozzie attacked Teddie and almost me while I was trying to get between them, I said I wanted to have him put down. I was afraid of him and scared for Teddie but it was just a reaction. I couldn't have gone through with it. If after a few days when things have settled some and you still feel it is best then I will understand but you will need to find her a really good home because as Zhuyo's mom mentioned people who aren't already attached to her may not put up with her behavior.

[WeLoveLeRoy]

I'm so sorry that you and your family had to go through this. I know how scary something like this is to go through. No one really will ever have the "right" answer to this situation, unfortunately. If there is anyway at all to keep the two seperated at all times I would do just that. I dont know what your house looks like...so its hard from this end to help tell what may work.

Leroy has lost his mind a few times...with kids. Well, actually teenagers minus the IQ . Those were some dark days for sure. But with time I've learned how to read him pretty well..and gained alot more control. Unfortunately, Kyra has issues that are going to take alot of work on everyone's part to keep both pups safe.

Keep us posted.

PS. Something tells me that one dog was protecting the baby from the other...

[vicster605]

Thank you so much for you advice and support. This UPSET me more than anything ever has. I've had a chance to calm down and talk about it. We have always been very careful with the Chows and the kids and have ALWAYS watched them closely to protect BOTH and Kearra & Kyra love the kids and the kids them. There has NEVER been any problems with either. I just NEVER have even considered what happened here happening like it did. Jennifer & I were standing right there and ya know WeloveLeRoy you may be right about Kyra protecting the baby. Kearra never really goes by the baby and Kyra always keeps a watchful eye on her and even has given her purplekisses on top of her head.....hummm I wonder because I was bending down about to get the baby out of her toy and Kyra doesn't like me to correct Kearra that has set her off before, she could have thought I was correcting her and she was standing by the baby and I was bending down over her. Could be....but whatever the reason this can't EVER HAPPEN AGAIN so for everyones sake I guess keeping them separated is all I can do. Its very sad because Kyra doesn't really understand and like Jennifer said they do fine together 95% of the time. Jennifer & the kids have lived here for months off & on all the Chows lives here and I also babysit the kids....they are here everyday so they shouldn't be stressed when they are here.....they are just part of our family both Chows know this.
Jeff....I understand you and your thinking but I would think at this point you would KNOW that I wouldn't even CONSIDER rehoming either of my girls UNLESS I thought it was the ONLY WAY to keep my family and them safe. Shame on you for putting me in the same catagory as the people who rehome because they get tired of their Chows and throw them away. Kyra is a rescue afterall.
So separate lives is the only thing I can do and I HOPE more than anyone that it works out.

[chow fancier]

Vicki,

Oh, I am so sorry this keeps happening. It sucks and I say that from experience. I would say I know how scared and horrified you must have been but there were never kids involved in my house. However, I know how it breaks your heart when your two beloved chow girls try to kill each other. I also know that you will do everything you can to make this work, because the alternative is heartbreaking for all concerned.

I wonder if there aren't some pharmaceutical options that could help you. My mother's male dog gets hormone shots to calm down the need to dominate the two other male dogs in the house (she lives with my brother and his partner). It seems to work well (she once was late for the shot and there was an altercation). I don't know the specific hormone or if it would work on females but will try to find out. I also don't know the interval but I think it was a matter of weeks or months between shots.

You could also try to reinforce the pack order as others have stated, it could reduce the stressors.

You are all in my thoughts and prayers.