Need Advice

Training and behavior topics, guidelines, and tips for Chow Chows.

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Wilson's Mom
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Need Advice

Post by Wilson's Mom »

Hi everyone

I'm new here and I hope you don't mind me jumping right in and asking for some advice with my chow Wilson.

Wilson is a black male and he's just over 4 years old. I actually have two issues that I could use some help with.

First, we have a young child, a 20 month old little girl. For the first year of her life, until she became mobile, I limited my dogs' access to her (we also have a Black lab mix named Bailey, who also has about 1/4 Chow in him). We closely supervised all interactions with the dogs to see how they would both react to her, and we kept the boys mainly in the downstairs part of our house, or outside. The dogs reacted well to her, especially our Lab, and she is crazy about them. She has never exhibited any fear, and most of the time, she is gentle with them, except for the occasional ear or tail pull, which we correct her for immediately.

Now that she's close to 2 years old, we have pretty much integrated the dogs back into our lives. They still sleep downstairs and prefer to be downstairs most of the time because it's cool there. But they also spend time with us in the evenings in the main part of the house. My problem is this. With my daughter becoming more interested in the dogs and trying to play and interact with them more, Wilson, the Chow, tries to avoid her and he has growled at her a couple of times. He has not snapped at her or anything like that, but the semi-aggressive behavior concerns me, naturally. He's a big boy and could really hurt her if he took the notion. Most of the time, this behavior is brought on merely by my daughter petting him or leaning against him affectionately. She does giggle and squeal a lot when she plays with the dogs, and this seems to disturb him as well. My Lab, Bailey, loves my little girl and has never been anything but completely gentle with her, even when she sits on him or pulls his ears or tail. I feel completely safe with her being around Bailey, but I am nervous when she is around Wilson.

Should I be doing something different to get Wilson to accept my daughter? I don't want to keep them separated, but as a mom, I can't take the risk of Wilson taking a chunk out of my baby either. Wilson is completely gentle and submissive with me and my husband - we can do anything to him - even take food out of his mouth- and he does not growl or snap at us. Any suggestions?

Second issue - we have our yard fenced in, but Wilson refuses to be kept in by any fence. He dreams up ways to escape and run the neighborhood, no matter what kind of barrier we construct, and as a result, when he goes outside to do his business, we have to put him on a chain. Again, our Lab Bailey never even tries to escape, and I feel bad allowing him to run free in the yard while our Chow is tied up. Anyone have a similar problem with a successful solution?

Thanks for your help!

Melissa
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Victory
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Post by Victory »

First keeping a chow or any dog tied up is a bad idea, he's running because he's bored, (this is normal for them) tying him, especially if he's bored already can lead to an increase in aggressive behavior. How much actual exercise is he getting?

Second, it is not natural for a chow to be aggressive with a young child, I've had six chows not one of them has ever been aggressive with childern, even my LiChi who could only be called dominant was never aggressive.

A lot of times a chow will growl not from aggressiveness but from fear or wariness. Your daughter is moving more now and may just be moving in ways that startle him, remember they have very bad perferal vision, also if she's squealing in his ears he may be in pain from it.

I know she's only 20 months old but she's old enough to start learning to use an indoor voice, and to approach him slowly and always from the front. You will need to monitor his behavior with her 100% for a long time, they have to learn to live together, he has to see her as another alpha, (all humans are alphas unless they are gangsters, drug users, drunks etc...then they are dog food).

Also have you had him from a puppy? I ask this because Chows have very, very long memories if he is a rescue and was hurt by a child this can cause unwanted behaviors.

Observe them together to see if you spot something that annoys him. Exercise him a lot to get rid of some of that excess energy, which will calm him. If he's not neutered get him neutered, it's healthier and may curb the wanderlust, (but may do nothing for aggressive/fear) work on establishing firmly that humans are alpha.

Most importantly, and some folks are going to disagree, some dogs do better with older childern. Do not let the issue escalate. Contact a good chow chow rescue now to see if they can help place him, in a home with older childern or no childern. They may also have some ideas on training him out of these problems, (some rescues are run by folks who also breed for show so they know trainers and training)

Hope this helps some, childern and chows can mix it just takes a bit of work.
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Wilson's Mom
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Post by Wilson's Mom »

Thanks for your comments.

I should clarify that I don't "keep my dog tied up". I'm aware that dogs should not be tied up, but there are also ordinances in our community that prohibit animals from running around free on the streets. He spends 90% of his time inside with us, but he has to go out to do his business. If we let him out without putting him on his cable, he will immediately escape from our fenced yard, which then causes us trouble with the neighbors. He doesn't really have time to get bored, so I don't think that is why he does it. I'm serious, it's not like he's left outside for several hours, gets bored, and then goes under the fence. If we let him out, he makes a beeline for the fence, searches out an escape route, and out he goes, anyway he can get out. My husband had a female chow years ago, and had a similar problem with her escaping constantly. And yes, he is neutered and has been for years.

Yes, we have had Wilson since he was a puppy. He takes a while to warm up to strangers, but other than that, he's a pretty friendly, loving Chow.

My daughter actually is fairly low-key, and doesn't yell and scream inside, in general. She does giggle and squeal sometimes, because she is delighted with her doggies, and you aren't going to teach a 20 month old not to giggle - who would want to? Like I said, Wilson doesn't really like any contact with her at all. The times he has acted strange around her or growled, it was because she was petting him, approaching him (from the front) and talking to him, or attempting to touch him affectionately, so you see why I am baffled by his behavior.

I guess I will just have to continue to monitor closely. I'm disappointed that Wilson isn't more comfortable and friendly with her. She really is a very sweet little girl who loves animals and she just wants to play with and love her doggies. She doesn't understand why Wilson runs away from her. She even started crying when he ran away from her yesterday. :(
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Post by Rogansmommy »

Hi Melissa and welcome to the forums. There are alot of good people here with alot of good information. We are all true Chow lovers and understand the breed quite well, collectively. We constantly learn from each other and hope we can help you.

I have been in your situation. My son is 6 years old and I have a male Chow, Rogan (almost 9) and a female rott, Nina (8). So I know what you are feeling.

In my opinion, you still need to keep the dogs and the child separate. We did not fully integrate our house until our son was almost 4. Your daughter needs to learn that the dogs are not there for her amusement. It's also not fair to Wilson to put him in uncomfortable situations. Most dogs do not like to be poked at, no matter how tolerant of children they are. And if Wilson is not reacting well to your daughter you want to limit their contact as much as possible. What little contact they have needs to be very structured.

Also in my opinion, your daughter needs to learn that there are strict rules when interacting with the dogs. My son still has very strict rules (cannot go near the dogs while eating, cannot play near them, anything even slightly resembling teasing is swiftly and quickly punished)with regard to the dogs. This is for his safety as well as theirs. If either of the dogs were to react and bite, they would be put down. Not by me, but by animal control. It would be an unfortunate thing for a dog to be punished for something they did not cause.

As for the second issue - I'm not a fan of leaving dogs outside unsupervised. Too many things can happen. You don't say where you live but weather conditions are not always optimal for chows outdoors.

The other thing is that Chows are hunters by nature. If something catches their eye or nose, they will be off and there is nothing you can do about it. There are stories on here of chows almost ripping the arms out of their people's sockets to hunt.
Michele

^Rogan^ at the Bridge on 5/16/09 -- always in my heart
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Post by sweetpea »

I have one year and 2 year old grandaughters. What I have found is Gracie will do ok for awhile, then the noise and the constant movements of the little ones starts to stress her out. When I took Gracie and was living in WI for awhile, I started including the two year old on our walks. Of course its tricky walking a 2 year old and a Chow at the same time! Our walks were short, but the idea was to get Gracie use to this little child being close to us, the sounds of her walking or running, or scuffing her feet. The squeals, constant talking, her excitement, ect. Sometimes we'd go to the school so Gracie could watch as Ashlyn ran around and played. Gracie got so she wanted to play to. We did a lot outside to try to help Gracie on the inside when my grandkids were over.

On the inside I limited Gracie's time in the same room with the kids. When I saw signs of stress the babygate went up. Gracie was and is always allowed to be so she can see us and the kids. Gracie can stand at the gate and Ashlyn can go to the gate to pet Gracie.

Ashlyn since she was little has thought it was her job to feed the dogs. She loves to feed them treats, she will take dog food out of the dish and walk over to each dog to hand feed them, she will share her crackers or anything she has with them so the two dogs have great respect for her. But, Gracie does get stressed out after awhile. My goal was to make sure Gracie never felt left out, or punished because two little ones are around. I have to say, I really think the things we did outside did wonders for Gracie. I think all our walks where people would be around us, passing by kids at a school playing, walking bike trails with all kinds of people, bikes, skates, ect. and even taking her to events or parks where she could hear all the noise of kids and people. She is less nervous now about things. Gracie isnt around little ones often at all. She might go months before being around a little one again. At the time of our move, she hadnt seen the grandgirls for several months. Now with school about to start again, we will purposely make daily walks by the school so Gracie doesnt forget the sound of kids and can see that quick movement.
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Post by Victory »

Wilson's Mom wrote: Like I said, Wilson doesn't really like any contact with her at all. The times he has acted strange around her or growled, it was because she was petting him, approaching him (from the front) and talking to him, or attempting to touch him affectionately, so you see why I am baffled by his behavior.

I guess I will just have to continue to monitor closely. I'm disappointed that Wilson isn't more comfortable and friendly with her. She really is a very sweet little girl who loves animals and she just wants to play with and love her doggies. She doesn't understand why Wilson runs away from her. She even started crying when he ran away from her yesterday. :(
Please don't think anyone is blaming you for anything, we have seen a lot of people come on this site, many who don't have a clue as to what a chow is or how to have a happy chow.

Your chow sounds like he may be having some jealousy issues, he certainly doesn't associate your daughter with anything pleasant. You have to work towards changing this; I'd try this, I'd give treats, petting, all affection to him, ONLY when your daughter is present too. I wouldn't let her pet him or anything first, just when he lies or sits quietly and she is playing in the room, then give praise, treats, petting. Start with small 15 min sessions. When he is comfortable with this, then allow her to approach, have her be quiet at first just maybe sit near him and play, praise him when this is well tolerated then separate them. Like maybe before nap and bed time, the other dog can interact with her more during these sessions, the chow may take notice and learn that way.

You will need to supervise the two for a long time, it's my belief that young childern, (under ten) and dogs of any size or age should never be left alone without supervision, either the dog or the child can get hurt. An older child that has been taught how to act and be around dogs is okay.

And there are a few breeds that are known to be escape artists, chows are among them. They will go under, over or through what ever just to go walkabout. You will find a lot of posts on this site from various chows taking themselves for a walk. I never allow my chows alone in a fenced yard without my direct supervision. I had one chow that had gone over the house he lived in to escape when his first mom had him, so nothing is beyond them, part of it is their intellignece, they want to see what's "over there" and part their independence, they don't need help to do it.

One other thing you can do to work with both these issues is put your daughter in a stroller, and take her and the chow for a walk. this will exercise him, relieve his boredom, (chows need constant mental stimulation to relieve this) and exploring new terriotory, (supervised) is good for him, also as another pleasent experience with your daughter present it can help their relationship.
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

I just went through all this with a four year old, My Chow growled everytime Conner was anywhere near her. At least your Chow allows your Daughter to pet him and get next to Him. My Chow stopped all the growling now that she is use to having a child around, she tolerates him and allows Conner to be near her but still wants no part of him but we have taught Conner the rules of owning a dog so he knows when not to bother her. Now all we have to teach Conner is to quit running his bike into her and to quit squirting her with the hose, it took some time to train the both of them to get along and we haven't had any growling in the past couple of months. If your Chow is Growling at your daughter your going to have to be firmer with your NO's when he growls and your going to have to watch them both closely for awhile when the two of them are together, don't ever take your eye's off them when they are in the same room or close to each other.. I just posted some do's and don't's for children living with dogs you should take a look at it. I would be real careful with the growls I doubt your Chow would actually bite her but he may nip her if she startles him or bothers him when he doesn't want to be bothered.

I don't agree with the re-homing, the Chow stays no matter what, you just have to take the time and be extra careful for awhile until she is older and has been taught what not to do around your Chow. I think letting a two year old get that close to any dog until she is older is taking a big risk.

The big difference in the way I treat my Chow is, most people try to teach the Chow/dog to live with the family in my house I teach the family to live with the Chow. There are rules that both the child and the Chow have to live by if the child gets bit he didn't follow the rules becouse I know my Chow wouldn't bit for no reason, she trys to stay away from him and goes into another room if he bothers her.
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Post by Yvonne »

Michele,

Are animal control laws that strict where you live? One nip and the dog has to be put down? Or removed from the area?
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Post by Rogansmommy »

Yvonne wrote:Michele,

Are animal control laws that strict where you live? One nip and the dog has to be put down? Or removed from the area?
I wasn't speaking nip - I was talking full on bite. If a child goes to the emergency room for a dog bite, that dog will be confiscated within 48 hours, quarantined and put down. Not a fun week for anyone involved.
Michele

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Post by LuLu33 »

I think your chow just has a bit of a dominance issue. Not an aggressive one. He thinks he's he boss and it's his way. I had one like that and he needs to know where he stands on the food chain and that escaping and growling are not tolerated. Your daughter is not in his eyes above him. I think some good training will do him a lot of good. He needs to listen to you, come when called and stay when told to stay. He needs to be trained not to go crazy when he gets outside or dart for the fence. It took me three years to get my showgirl to listen but it was worth it. My two boys were much easier to train and I even boundary trained one which is almost unheard of for most c hows. He was so happy to have the freedom and I could take him anywhere. He was my rescue and I didn't even have him as a puppy. But I know that's not the norm to have a non rabbitt chasing chow. Calm submissive behavior come from training- That's just my humble opinion. Chows are not Labs and are not as welcoming and pet me pet me kind of dogs. They are cautious dogs, not mean, but cautious.
I introduced my chow to my babies right away. Brought home clothes with the baby scent before I even brought the baby home and left the door open when the baby was in the crib so my chow could go in and check out the baby on his terms but couldn't hurt or do anything. Of course I always had a watchful eye. It ended up that my chow slept under the crib and took on the mama role and was so protective of my son that when people came over to see the baby he stood and watched the whole time. I also always suggest people take their chows to the parks and out to hear kids screaming and crying and traffic and noises so they don't get spooked as they are not always tolerant of the young kids quick action and louder antics. It's hard enough to have a new baby in the house and deal with the pet issue, I've been there and I feel for you but I really think if you don't have the time to do it send your chow to a good breeder/trainer to work with him if you can. Listen to me talk as my spoiled stubborn boy isn't listening at all these days. :lol:
Good luck!
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Post by Wilson's Mom »

Thank you all for your excellent suggestions. From what I've read, it looks like we are doing most of the right things, but that it is just going to take some time. I think that Wilson will eventually accept Leah, but you are all right, we need to make it gradual and we need to enforce strict rules for both dog and baby.

I couldn't agree more about careful supervision when small children are with dogs. When Wilson and Leah are together, I never take my eyes off of them or leave the room. Even when she is with Bailey, my completely easy-going Lab mix, I supervise carefully, because I don't want her taking advantage and teasing or hurting him. I limit Leah's time with the dogs, but I think it is so important for her to learn to love and respect animals. We are definitely teaching her to stay away from the dogs when they are eating or sleeping, and she is being sternly corrected for handling the dogs in any other than a gentle, respectful way.

The one thing we need to work on is making sure that both of our dogs get more regular exercise. Because we work such long hours (hubby and I are both lawyers) and because Leah is so labor intensive right now, the doggies don't get walked as much as they should, and I feel very bad about that. We have a nice neighborhood to walk them in, and we are going to start making that a priority.

Again, thanks so much for taking time to respond. I am definitely going to put many of your suggestions into practice.

Melissa
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