Kuma just attacked our Pom...PLEASE HELP!!!

[kumakim06]

Hi everyone,

We are pretty devastated, as we've never had a big dog and never experienced violence like this (although I'm sure it could have been worse). We just adopted Kuma last Monday, and we have a Pom named Oso with us already. They were doing fine, although they were not completely buddy buddy yet. Yesterday, we are not exactly sure what happened, but Kuma went after Oso and had half of Oso's head in her mouth. Now I'm sure that if she wanted to destroy Oso, she could have easily done that. So my husband was able to get Kuma off of Oso. Oso didn't seem to be hurt, just very traumatized and sad. It's like his spirit's been broken, and Oso is a very happy guy normally. He did yelp a few times when we tried to pet him, so we thought he MIGHT have been hurt, but after a while he seemed to be moving around normally. That was yesterday.

We keep Kuma on a lease and tied near someone at all times, because we do not completely trust her yet. Today, my husband brought home some pork bones for Kuma which are sealed and packaged in a plastic bag. We left it by the front door. Oso went sniffing at it, and I don't think Kuma even knew it was there yet. I was holding onto Kuma's lease under my legs while I was working at my desk and got up to get something from the room, since she usually just lays around not doing much. She should have been tied up as always, but I thought 10 seconds would be ok. Then in the next second, I hear Oso screaming. Kuma attacked Oso, and my husband had to get them apart...or rather, get Kuma off of Oso.

Oso was limping, and not using one of his legs. Being very worried obviously, my husband took him to the 24 hour emergency vet just now. I just got an update, and Oso has 4 punctures in his hind leg which are pretty bad, some wounds to one the the front legs, and punctures in the abdomen.

What are we supposed to do now?? Please help.

[kingalls]

Where was Kuma adopted from? As with any rescue, I would have thought that they would have advised to keep them heavily supervised - especially when it came to treats or food in general until you knew whether or not food aggression could be a problem...that sounds to be a problem for Kuma. Oso is way too small to defend himself if Kuma attacks so you must be exta deligent in protecting him. Definitely feed them separately. I don't have personal experience with this but others have posted about this type of situation on this site. Doing some searches for food aggression, etc. might help you find other threas regardin this topic. I'll try to find some myself and let you know. I think the situation can eventually work out but it will take some work. I'll see what I can find from older posts.

[kumakim06]

Thank you so much for your reply and for your help! I've been refreshing this forum waiting for replies. My husband is still at the vet right now. Thank you so much again.

[sweetpea]

We have this problem with our girls when it comes to bones, yummy foods and treats. They will stand side by side eating their dog food, no problem. Put my left over porkchops in their dishes and you can bet the first one finished will try to steal from the other and a fight will break out. Anytime they are given bones, anything yummy that takes time to chew we gate them in different rooms until both are finished. If its a bone and one only chews part of it then decides to save the rest for later, it is removed before they are allowed in the same room. They take their bones and yummy things like that very seriously and will fight for the stuff. I sure hope the little one is ok. Just be careful with treats and things, gate Kuma away from the other until they are both totally finished with it.

[DOHMAN]

Sounds like a dominance problem to me. If you really want to keep kuma in the household you need to lay down the law. If you do not know how to do that I would google dog trainers in your area and have one come to your house for a visit. I had a violent chow go to the nicest chow very quickly with just a little help.

[kingalls]

Ok - I totally missed the key thing you were posting and something that I do have experience with...my two are totally great with each other - unless it involves special things like raw bones! The worst I have seen them behave toward each other was when I put out raw bones - even though I gave one to each, Nahkohe believes both belonged to him and challenged Shiloh for them. No blood was drawn but gosh! they "rumbled" and it terrified me to see them fight like that!
Have Kuma and Oso been fed non-bone or raw food together? If so, how did they get aong? Definitely keep the raw bone factor out of the situation.

[kumakim06]

Thanks for your replies. As far as their feeding, we've only had Kuma for exactly a week now, and we've been feeding them both Orijen at the same time morning and night. Of course Kuma finishes first, and she always tries to get to Oso's food, but she's tied up. She never acted up though or tried to get loose to get the food. Other times when we give treats, they are ok as well. These treats are quick though, not like the bones. This is the first time we brought bones into the house. The thing is that the bones were not even open yet. They are sealed up in a package still. I know their sense of smell is like no other, but Kuma didn't even know that the bones were here...until the second after she saw Oso sniffing it.

[DOHMAN]

You need to show kuma who is boss! I would put a leash on her but dont tie her up. let her finish her food and if you notice her going twards your other baby simply tug on the leash and in a stern voice no. If that does not work I would take another step by buying a pinch collar. she will QUICKLY get the message to leave your baby alone. This does not make your dog mean. it simply pinches the neck just like the momma dog would do. like I said in a previous post she is going to be set in her ways. you need to QUICKLY show your the boss otherwise I fear she will not be a dog you will want long term.

[Auddymay]

I think it is a case of too much too fast. I would not even feed them together, unless you or your husband is there and controlling Kuma. Same thing with together time. I am so sorry your Oso is hurt. It is going to take time. And patience. I won't advise further, there has been some good advice already. Let us know how things are going for Oso. Some Chows have moved in new homes without a blip, others, it takes time.

[Swerve]

I don’t know if this will help but will share.

We’ve had Duff for 4 years (Now age 10) he is a very passive dog who would let any dog take his food from his bowl, or mouth in that matter. When we got Winston a few months back we had to teach Winston who was the Alpha male by feeding Duff first. As Duff didn’t initially protect his food Winston would just take it, he would step away. Combined Winston wouldn’t stop trying to hump Duff (Alpha Male).

After talking to the vet at puppy pre school. We decided to ALWAYS feed Duff first, initially I had to tell, yell at Winston when he went to push in, also stare down etc. Now he never eats from Duffs bowl, even when there is left over kibble. He steal tries to hump Duff but no where as much and I leave that to Duff to sort out. Normally by placing outside as inside Duff coming running to me for help.

I would assume you need to teach hopefully them to share and reduce the food aggression, if by worst case it means always feeding apart, that may be your solution. But try supervision and help where possible as I have done above etc.

Good luck

[Sirchow]

We have a very small cavalier called Alfie and a one year old chow Bramble. One thing I have learnt is to never give them high tarrif treats in the same room. The level of potential aggression increases with the tarrif of the treats. Dog food dosn't cause an argument but the moments before they are fed when excitement is high does. I am very firm with Bramble as she tends to gallop all over Alfie at this time and she knows she will never get fed if she doesn't sit in her corner quietly. Pigs ears are banned in our house. Other situations will also cause fights like the doorbell going. All their natural protective instincts get redirected towards each other and they end up fighting, so these situations have to be managed in advance if possible and nipped in the bud imediately and never allowed to escillate. I take the view that if my two fight it is my fault always. They are not ever left alone together in the house even though they are the best of friends. They sometimes get to go in the garden together though there was an incident recently where Alfie was hurt in a Bramble zoomie which he started by barking at Bramble and winding her up. It is a case of getting systems in place and gradually biulding on what you know is OK. But I would never leave them alone together the size difference is too great. I personally would go for baby gates in this situation till you can see how things are going to go.

Personally I do not believe in pinch prong collars and would want to try everything else first. A trainer may be able to help you get some understanding of how to get control but please ensure they know about the breed and are working in a method that uses positive reinforcement. You need to build a positive firm envirement. Let us know how you get on and I hope your little Oso is alright and not too traumatised.

[Victory]

You've only had her a week, and she's underweight and under-fed as you at first said. There is a high potential for food aggression here. You need to feed them separetly and you need to closely supervise her even when she is apart from him and they are both eating. For the first month after I had Firesong I stood between she and Darkwind when they ate to make her stay at her dish or she would attack him, I wasn't even worried about him since he was twice her size, but I don't allow food aggression at all. I will say though that once her weight is up to where it should be and she's not hungry all the time, some of this will naturally go away, some of it, not all of it. What I've found is that females are more aggressive about food than the males are and they expect the male to back off from food, when the male doesn't a fight can happen.

It will also not help if she is tied up and he is roaming free. She's been tied all her life and him being able to roam is also annoying to her. For now I'd crate them both if you don't trust her, that way she's not in that, "I'm tied up and can't get away or get what I want" mindset. Tying has been proven to be a major cause of aggression in dogs.

When they are together carefully supervise them, I mean watch like a hawk, a fight can happen in a split second, but there are warning signs, a shift in posture, a gutteral growl or vocalization, a slight stiffening of the legs, ears suddenly down. At any sign of these things, even if you're not sure about them, intervene immediately, a sharp call of her name, or a very sharp, and loud NO, to focus her attention on you, then call her to you in a no nonsense way, let her know you are not happy with her, and that you are watching.

She needs to learn two things, right away, 1) you and your husband are in charge and that all good things come from you, and 2) she doesn't need to be protective or concerned about her food, she's going to get her share, and enough. Learning these two things will help bring her out of that "I'm going to be alpha to take care of myself because no one else will" mindset she's in right now. She'll be much calmer and happier when she realizes that she doesn't have to take care of herself.

[Mochi_Yoshi]

I agree with what most have said, however the opposite can also be true. You can always "flood".

What I mean is, whatever/however long it takes to get it through to the dogs that food is not a limited resource.

I have always free fed my two chows, now at 8 months. They have had a few fights when they were in their 7th month over some tarter control soft bone thing (I swear there's crack in there), then other new treats...it was bad, although thank god no perm injuries, blood yes. Realizing that we can't always separate them or supervise them, we went the other route....flooded them with whatever food/treat/bone. Especially when we introduce something new. If I get a new treat, I will give each one, then give them a second immediately after the first one is done, then a third, etc. You can tell from their body language at what point they 'get it'. Try distracting them if a fight is about to happen...my chows does this freeze and stare. It's like those western movies! If anything moves, the fight is full on in a split second. Now they do "trades" when they want the other's bone...one dog will drop her's on the other and somehow either they trade, or one does a low growl which means no. At this point, I can give the trade proposer a new bone or let them work it out.

Some might not agree with this...but with my last chow, Bebe (55lbs) (she passed), we had her with a small dog (>20lbs) who was used to being dominate before she met Bebe. Two fights broke out, both times with puncture wounds and horrid screams, but nothing perm. We decided to make the smaller dog submit to the chow. It took some time and it was hard, but we felt we had to do it for the safety of the smaller dog because no matter what, she will lose every fight due to her size. After a month or so it was ok, they were not best friends, but there was no more fights. We were able to leave them all together and leave the house not worrying.

Best of luck! Hang in there and be patient!

[Boogie and Linda]

Please don't get discouraged or be angry at Kuma. Unfortunately fights do happen sometimes. I am glad your Oso wasn't hurt too badly. I think the treats caused this one definately. I am sure Kuma could smell them. And not to blame the victim but I am wondering how well Oso is trained. I think that will make a difference in how Kuma will treat him. Does Oso have really good doggie manners that can be an example for Kuma or does he have "little dog syndrome"? We have a Pomeranian down the street from us that runs out of his house and barks and postures at my chows all the time. It takes all my might to hold them back from hurting him and he won't back down. If you are letting Oso get away with something that you wouldn't want Kuma to do then you are creating a double standard that will cause problems. I think training them together would be definately good. And keep anything that triggers a fight out of the house until you have trust between them. Good luck. If you really want to make this work you can but if you are going to be worried and favor Oso (which will be hard not to do) then it may cause jealousy from Kuma which could be dangerous for Oso.

[kumakim06]

Hello all,

Thank you for your thoughts. Oso just had surgery today for an abdominal hernia, and it went well. He needs to stay overnight, and we are picking him up tomorrow morning. As far as Kuma, we still love her to death. In fact, she is right next to me, and the husband is playing with her and taking pictures of her. We realize that it is not her fault. We just need to follow the helpful advices from all of you. We really do appreciate all the feedback, and we are constantly checking back on the forum. So please continue to help us out!

Thanks!!

[CoraP.]

I'm glad Oso's surgery went well! Hopefully with all of this good advice, you'll have better times with both of them.

[kumakim06]

Oh and by the way, we are going to start the training course at Petsmart for both Kuma and Oso starting next Monday. Oso needs about a week to recover, and Mondays are free for both my husband and I. It is the 8 week course that Petsmart has. We can't wait! Does anyone have any experience or has anyone heard about the effectiveness of this course?

[Victory]

Some people have done well with petsmart and chows and some people have had a horrible experience. If the instructor says anything like, "chows are vicious" chows need a lot of strong correction, chows are stupid, chows are untrainable, or I don't work with chows much. Run, don't walk, run for the exit and find another class. If the instructor doesn't say any of those things, but starts talking about choke collars, alpha rolls and yanking on a dog or getting in their face, Run don't walk, run for the exit.

If the instructor talks about posistive reinforcement, ignoring mistakes, or when they don't get it right and trying again, always with a positive and "see Kuma this is fun isn't it" attitude. Stay and you'll learn a lot. Chows don't do well with yanking, yelling, punishment, alpha roll type training. They do very well with positive training, lots of treats, petting and praise when they get it right, which they do very quickly.

[Juniper]

Glad that Oso is doing OK now. I have done both basic and advanced training at Petsmart with one of my chows. Sheena was a rescue off the street at about 3.5 years old. Don't be upset if Kuma decides to do nothing like my Sheena did at the training sessions; after all the training sessions are actually for us! Sheena was not treat-oriented, didn't eat in public and was super protective of the group that were getting trained within the fence. And barked and growled at the people in the store who even approached the fence where the training was occurring. But Sheena did watch all the other dogs thru the training, either by herself or I made sure she turned around and watched. Sheena knew what was expected of her when I got home and trained her. She passed with flying colors at the finals with my training at home, going to no-leash parks, parks, greeting people, but I will always need to remind her since she is a dominant aggressive chow. She is playful w/me, but NOT playful with any outsider. Socialization is the key but it may be too late for Sheena at her age. She tolerates others when we are outside or not at home. At home...well anyone who visits me will need to stay at a hotel.

Last month Sheena bit Troy my male chow when I wasn't home and a day later Troy was in emergency due to a massive infection in his head and face. Sheena is food aggressive w/Troy only and VERY territorial. Sheena is now 8.5 years old and Troy is 4 years old and coming into his own and doesn't quite like Sheena's attitude and challenges her. She's alpha to him so he will always lose.

It's taken about three weeks of daily hard training and re-training but now both of them must lay down while I'm preparing their food. When I place it down they cannot get up until I say so. If any of them break staying in their place...I pick up the bowls, go do something else and come back 10 minutes later and start the process again. Sheena gets up first to go to her bowl, starts eating...then Troy can get up and eat. I have noticed a change in their attitudes now on food. After she's eaten, if Sheena decides to get food aggressive towards Troy (who eats more slowly), she looks in my direction just as I'm beginning to eh-eh her and Sheena decides to just walk away.

I was doing a lot of things improperly...due to my lack of knowledge I allowed Troy to go out the door first into the back yard instead of Sheena, greeted him first when I arrived home since he was first at the door. Now I'm training Troy that Sheena is alpha to him and I am Alpha to all in the household. Before I never really paid any attention to what I did; I was treating them like children instead of what they are followers of a leader, looking for direction.

I now keep them separate in the household when I leave...until I've mastered my training techniques. I picked up this book Latchkey Dogs and another book by Uncle Mattey (out of Los Angeles, California) who has a book called "GRRRR" on types of aggressiveness in dogs, how to tell which type yours are and how to deal with it. I'm having successful results. I also must add that Troy is not all that innocent. I believe he's fear-aggressive and initiates arguments with Sheena. She was sooooo patient when I got him at 9 months old...and because of my lack of knowledge I spoiled Troy and Sheena became upset with me as well. I showed favoritism to Troy since he's more playful, plays catch, etc. and Sheena didn't like the competition, so Sheena got more aggressive.

Although Oso is smaller, I believe Kuma can be trained to be submissive, but it will take time and persistent training by both of you. Kuma is new, is trying to be a part of the pack/family and locate her place within the family. I have been slowly learning that the more training I do the more relaxed Sheena and Troy get...there are less challenges from Troy and Sheena is allowing Troy to have some play time w/her without any actual serious fighting. They look like they are enjoying each other's company again.

Troy is heavy into treats but I train him without treats. Some of the books I have read suggest no treat training just acknowledging, petting and that seems to be working really really well for me and the chows.

Good luck and enjoy the Petsmart Training!

[Boogie and Linda]

We took Boogie to Petsmart training when he was a puppy and we had a very good instructor. Boogie was like the Tazmanian Devil as a puppy and all mouth and the woman did really well with training both Boogie and us. She even did some one on one sessions with us without charging us more. Every class though depends on the trainer. Like Victory said there are a lot of trainers who don't like chows. If yours doesn't then I would wait and find another class. You may want to drop in with Kuma to see how he or she reacts to her. Good luck! And I am sorry to hear that Oso needed surgery. Poor little guy. I hope he has a speedy recovery.

[Sirchow]

I am glad to hear that Oso is OK. I think you are wise to take both dogs to classes together then you are using the same rules for both.

Bramble has been going to training classes this last few weeks to try and make up for the months of socialisation she missed when she hurt her legs and had to rest at home. She will not take treats in public even from me. So for some of the classes she wouldn't join in and just watched but she must have taken a lot in because she learnt to let people handle her all at once and she pretty much decided to join in herself last week and did sit, stay, leave and other things too. But she still wouldn't take her rewards and when the lady who runs the group gave her a piece of chicken she delicately put it on her shoe when she wasn't looking causing much merriment among the other owners!! She has become the class clown. But my point is that chows are smart and watching others and how they behave all goes in. Within two weeks of being there she learnt from watching that it was OK to allow people to stroke her. She still doesn't allow it outside but thats fine with me as most vets work indoors and my aim was to get her to tolerate vets and show judges.

[bama]

So sorry to hear of your dilema.

This may help you...

Bama Rama Training Method:

http://forum.chowchow.org/viewtopic.php ... hod#p62516

[JasonandNat]

Ouch! This always gets us owners wound up. Having dealt with domething similar recently I would suggest the following. This is most likely more about jealosy than food. Our 2 Chows could go at it pretty fierce with blood and fur everywhere. It was always with one or both of us around. It was hard, but we tried staying out it and that was hard. The good news is that was pretty much it, no more issues. We keep the bowls about 10 feet apart, but they now swap bowls and share without any fighting. No more racing to dominate or block the bowls, just friendly feeding. This was the only real problem we have had with our fur kids and it has been heaven with it resolved.

We wish you the best in sorting this out, it can be stressful. It is however something that can be resolved.