She won't "stay"
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She won't "stay"
Java, my black Chow, has completed two training courses. One was Manners Class I and the other Manners & Socialization. We, (her & I) are presently enrolled in Good Citizen Class which is for dogs to get certified (get a certicficate from AKC) to go into nursing homes. We have completed week 5 of the 6 week course and the TEST is given on week 7.
Well, first let me say, she is just amazing at every Station of the course, which includes: Owner greeting a friend, Owner and Dog greeting a Strange Dog, Greeting a stranger, Off leash recall, Seperation from the Owner for 3 minutes, approaching strange objects i.e. wheelchairs,umbrellas etc. and Grooming, where the trainer brushes, examines paws, ears, mouth etc. Except Staying!! Java won't stay!
She will sit and she will go "down", but put her in either position and say stay and I can back away from her maybe 2 1/2 feet and her little butt comes right off the floor. Now "stay" has been in every class. But this class requires a 10 foot away "stay". She will not cooperate. If I am leaving her she is leaving with me! The trainer is so taken aback she has volunteered to work seperately with us before class next Tuesday. Of course I offer payment for her services. But I feel so bad because I know she wants her to pass badly too.
So I am looking for help with Myself!! I know it is never the dog but something I am doing. In the other classes I was taught to put my hand on her chest and then back away and say stay. But 2 to 3 feet was successful in those classes. Also we have tried holding firmly on the leash; straight up in the air and we tried the trainer holding her while I walked away with my back to her. Of course that worked till the trainer lets go. As I say I know it's something I'm doing. I have tried with treat and no treat and I do always hold my hand up in a "stop" position: palm toward Java. I sure would apprecaite any advice. Thanks so much. Deb
Well, first let me say, she is just amazing at every Station of the course, which includes: Owner greeting a friend, Owner and Dog greeting a Strange Dog, Greeting a stranger, Off leash recall, Seperation from the Owner for 3 minutes, approaching strange objects i.e. wheelchairs,umbrellas etc. and Grooming, where the trainer brushes, examines paws, ears, mouth etc. Except Staying!! Java won't stay!
She will sit and she will go "down", but put her in either position and say stay and I can back away from her maybe 2 1/2 feet and her little butt comes right off the floor. Now "stay" has been in every class. But this class requires a 10 foot away "stay". She will not cooperate. If I am leaving her she is leaving with me! The trainer is so taken aback she has volunteered to work seperately with us before class next Tuesday. Of course I offer payment for her services. But I feel so bad because I know she wants her to pass badly too.
So I am looking for help with Myself!! I know it is never the dog but something I am doing. In the other classes I was taught to put my hand on her chest and then back away and say stay. But 2 to 3 feet was successful in those classes. Also we have tried holding firmly on the leash; straight up in the air and we tried the trainer holding her while I walked away with my back to her. Of course that worked till the trainer lets go. As I say I know it's something I'm doing. I have tried with treat and no treat and I do always hold my hand up in a "stop" position: palm toward Java. I sure would apprecaite any advice. Thanks so much. Deb
Re: She won't "stay"
What do you do at home when you don't want her to follow you somewhere (bathroom, upstairs, ...)? Does she "stay" then? Or can she just not do it at all?
Re: She won't "stay"
You should be proud of yourself! You've achieved so much with her already, given the fact she's a Chow!!!
Re: She won't "stay"
Sarahloo, That's a good question? I had to stop and think. She follows me everywhere. I never stop her. She is unobtrusive and just "thunks" down once she sees what I'm up to. She does like to block Biscuit, my other Chow but once Biscuit gets through a doorway Java is the lady and defers and Biscuit is always getting the "nos" from me to get her out of my way. So I guess I say NO. For a long time we thought Biscuit would think her name was BiscuitNo!! But you are right. I don't ask her to stay anywhere else in her life except class!
Re: She won't "stay"
That's what I thought! So it's perfectly natural for her to follow you when you ask her to "stay" because she always follows you whereever you go. She probably can't even grasp the concept of just letting you wander off somewhere while she remains behind.J & C wrote:But you are right. I don't ask her to stay anywhere else in her life except class!
Do you have a hallway where you can introduce her to the "stay" concept? Take baby steps! Only back away a tiny little bit further every day. Look, we have a "stay" smiley here: !
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Re: She won't "stay"
Yep i agree with Sarahloo, she is not used to you being away from her in another room or something. That's what you have to work on, it may take a bit, (she is a chow after all) but baby steps, are what's needed. This might work, but it will take two people, put her in a stay and walk away, when she follows you, take her back to the other person, have them hold her by her leash. You tell her to stay, and walk away again, when she trys to get up to follow have the other person distract her with a toy. Make being away from you a fun thing. Right now it causes anxiety because she's not used to it, but if you make it fun, it might help.
Victory, Darkwind, (our angel), Firesong, and Dreamdancer
Thank you SweetPea!
Thank you SweetPea!
Re: She won't "stay"
Thank you both for the great advice! I took her Saturday morning to the training arena. I actually hooked her leash loop over a side on a jumper so she could not follow any further then her leash. Nope, didn't work. When the trainer joined me she had me place Java at my side and put her in a "sit" then just step in front of her. We really just can't get past 1-2 feet away.
Baby steps is exactly right! But will we get to 10 feet in 2 weeks; I don't think so.
Victory, that is a great idea. The trainer has held Java by her leash in class but the butt still comes up. Distraction is something that neither of us has thought of though. As I was leaving yesterday we were discussing "anything that Java just has to have"-a favorite toy or treat. And there really is nothing. She is just so low key. Her and Biscuit love to argue over a bacon flavored corncob, vinyl toy. So I bought 2 more of them home to stop the arguing; to no avail! They want to argue over that one, thanks!! But without Biscuit in the house Java could care less about any of the corn cobs. It's more the game then a passion she has for the toy.
There are no halls in my home. It's an old farm house and every room is a sort of "lean to" to the center of house as add ons But I will try the baby steps repeatedly and try the distraction after the stay command. I won't be allowed to do that on test night though
If we don't pass we don't need to do the whole class again; just keep going for repeated attempts at the test course. I have throughly enjoyed my time at the class. There are just a total of 4 taking it so it has been intimate and the other 3 are so fun to be with. One is a beautiful Great Dane, one a cattle dog of sorts and a beautiful West. Spaniel. The cattle dog is trained by a ten year old boy and I have delighted in his enthusiasm! The Dane is just breath takingly beautiful and the Spaniel knocks it out of the park
Then there is gentle Java. I do want to share a story. One night the course was set up for agility and the trainer said let's have the dogs go to the jumps just to alleviate some boredom for them. I knew Java would not JUMP! She won't walk past the baking pans I remove from the oven storage when I bake!! They don't belong on the table and she won't walk past the table if they are on it! Anyway..we go up to the jumps and I'm all "Come on Java! Come on baby! Let's JUMP! Well she ducks under the post and the whole thing comes banging, clanging down. I release her leash immediately and the side post with the jumper holes hooks into her loose leash and she is dragging it fearing that this new fangled thing is chasing her!! I catch up quickly but not before she is terrified. Her tail is completely down and the rest of the evening we Will Not go back to that side of the arena. My eyes were wet with pity and sorrow. No kidding. She took it so hard and most of the others laughed. But The Spaniels owner came right over and petted her too and said how sorry she was that Java was frightened so. I have loved her dearly ever since!!
Anyway getting too long here. But thank you so. I should have asked earlier!
Baby steps is exactly right! But will we get to 10 feet in 2 weeks; I don't think so.
Victory, that is a great idea. The trainer has held Java by her leash in class but the butt still comes up. Distraction is something that neither of us has thought of though. As I was leaving yesterday we were discussing "anything that Java just has to have"-a favorite toy or treat. And there really is nothing. She is just so low key. Her and Biscuit love to argue over a bacon flavored corncob, vinyl toy. So I bought 2 more of them home to stop the arguing; to no avail! They want to argue over that one, thanks!! But without Biscuit in the house Java could care less about any of the corn cobs. It's more the game then a passion she has for the toy.
There are no halls in my home. It's an old farm house and every room is a sort of "lean to" to the center of house as add ons But I will try the baby steps repeatedly and try the distraction after the stay command. I won't be allowed to do that on test night though
If we don't pass we don't need to do the whole class again; just keep going for repeated attempts at the test course. I have throughly enjoyed my time at the class. There are just a total of 4 taking it so it has been intimate and the other 3 are so fun to be with. One is a beautiful Great Dane, one a cattle dog of sorts and a beautiful West. Spaniel. The cattle dog is trained by a ten year old boy and I have delighted in his enthusiasm! The Dane is just breath takingly beautiful and the Spaniel knocks it out of the park
Then there is gentle Java. I do want to share a story. One night the course was set up for agility and the trainer said let's have the dogs go to the jumps just to alleviate some boredom for them. I knew Java would not JUMP! She won't walk past the baking pans I remove from the oven storage when I bake!! They don't belong on the table and she won't walk past the table if they are on it! Anyway..we go up to the jumps and I'm all "Come on Java! Come on baby! Let's JUMP! Well she ducks under the post and the whole thing comes banging, clanging down. I release her leash immediately and the side post with the jumper holes hooks into her loose leash and she is dragging it fearing that this new fangled thing is chasing her!! I catch up quickly but not before she is terrified. Her tail is completely down and the rest of the evening we Will Not go back to that side of the arena. My eyes were wet with pity and sorrow. No kidding. She took it so hard and most of the others laughed. But The Spaniels owner came right over and petted her too and said how sorry she was that Java was frightened so. I have loved her dearly ever since!!
Anyway getting too long here. But thank you so. I should have asked earlier!
Re: She won't "stay"
I smiled the whole time reading your post because it sounds like such a wonderful relationship that you share! Good luck to you both!! Jean
Re: She won't "stay"
Thanks, Jean. The test is next Tuesday evening. But I am sure to no avail! We went to the arena Sat. morning for an hour. It was just Java, the trainer and me. We just can't get her to do it. So no certificate from AKC:( But still..we had fun and she is a sweetheart. My timid sweetheart.
Re: She won't "stay"
We took the test. Java was so serious. Seemed to know that the empty arena and set up was special. There were 10 stations and she did just lovely at 9 of them! And really at the "stay" station she did better than ever: up to 3 feet before she ask, "where you goin', Mom?" Up she came! Such a doll! But I explained in the car on the way home that at least she tried and participating is one of the most important lessons in life! When we got home we told Biscuit all about it and I do think Biscuit shared her pride too! I'm crazy about them! Ha! You thought I was gonna stop after the word crazy. right?! Thanks all!
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Re: She won't "stay"
seems like you have a sweet dog.. i wish my chow would be like that also..
Re: She won't "stay"
She is a sweetie. Thanks for your kind comment.
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Re: She won't "stay"
I'm sorry you didn't pass but it truly sounds like you and Java are doing a wonderful job - and I would expect that they will have the test again and you have time to work toward that goal still. Passing nine out of ten of the CGC tests is not bad at all! You should be proud to be dong this with a "non-obedience" breed like the Chow. Personally I LOVE working with and training this breed of dog - they may be independent but when you tap into their intelligence, it's just amazing what they can learn.
Your problem with the stay is not unusual, and in a way it's a "problem" that I can't fault. How can you find fault with a dog that WANTS to be with its owner, right?? But I also know that it can be very important to have a dog that is confident enough to stay while the owner steps away, and I think that you and Java will accomplish that still. I'd like to give you some tips that might help you reach that goal.
I find that a lot of dogs do much better at the stay if they have something to focus on. So I teach the stay with treats on the floor! I find a treat that the dog can barely resist, and then they learn that the only way they can get the treat is to keep their little bottoms (or bellies, in a down-stay) on the floor. I start by having the dog at my left side, and slipping my left hand into the collar so that I can hold the dog in place. I have the dog sit, then without saying anything else I reach out in front of the dog about 2 feet and place a treat on the floor (with my right hand).
I fully expect at this point that the dog will try to get to the treat - and that's fine! She has to learn what DOESN'T work as well as what does, so trying things is perfectly right. When she gets up and tries to go to the treat, I just silently and gently place her back into a sit. If she lays down I put her back into the sit. I don't let her go forward at ALL - I keep my hand in the collar and just keep placing her back into the sit until she finally sits for just a few seconds - then I quickly reach forward, bring the treat to her lips and say "YESSS!! What a good girl! You're SO wonderful!!" as she eats the treat.
Then I do it all over again. After a few repetitions, most dogs are figuring out that if they just stay STILL, the treat comes to them! You'll see them focus intently on the treat, eyes staring at it, body staying absolutely still. This is great. Some dogs take a bit longer and that's okay - every dog learns at their own speed. You want the dog to watch the treat, and to realize that the ONLY way to get the treat is to hold still! I don't say the word "stay" or anything like that during this training - I want the dog to figure out kind of on their own that holding still is the way to get to the treat. And I never EVER EVER allow the dog to get up and go to the treat - that's a perfect way to teach the dog to break stays instead of hold them! It's important to be consistent and always bring the treat to the dog's mouth.
As the dog figures out what she's supposed to do, you start putting the treat out farther and farther. You still have to reach out and put the treat down, but keep it controlled so that your dog doesn't bolt forward and grab the treat. Most dogs will just plant their butts hard against the floor and not move if you've done the initial training right, and gradually you can start to take a step out to put the treat down. You want to work slowly through this - if your dog starts breaking then you're trying to go too fast and you need to go back and work closer in to the dog. Over a period of days or weeks, you work until you can step out a few steps, put the treat down, walk back to the dog and then back out to the treat to bring it to the dog.
Once your dog is doing well with this exercise, you can try something different that will help the dog keep focus while you move farther away. Start putting the treats in a small plastic container. Do the exercise the same way at first but instead of putting a single treat out, put the container out there (with the lid on loosely at first) and when you want to give a treat, open the container and give her a treat. You're starting to put the focus on the container, which is going to allow you to move farther away without worrying that she will break and get the treat at the wrong time. Also start keeping some treats in a pocket, and begin treating part of the time from your pocket instead of from the floor or the container - this will help you transfer away from the floor at some point, although right now it's not important.
Start practicing with putting the treat container a couple feet in front of the dog (sit the dog, reach out and set the container down) and then move to the container and back to the dog, giving a treat either from the container or your pocket (at least half the time the treat should come from the container at this point). Keep working on this until you can walk past the container several feet and back to your dog. Dont' push this! If her butt starts coming up then you're going too far - work more on the basics and go slower in moving away. You want her to gain as much confidence as possible, and the treat container is going to help her do that IF you don't worry her by going too far away too soon. Never try to go out of sight during this training! You want her to succeed as much as possible.
All the way through this training, never use "NO" or any correction. There isn't really a right or wrong to this - she can choose what she wants to do, but she won't get the praise and treats unless she stays! You want to be sure that you find an absolutely delicious treat for her - bits of cooked beef heart, or small cubes of cheddar cheese, or tiny dabs of liverwurst. It helps if she's a bit hungry, too, so practicing before she's fed works better. It's important that the reward be really high for this as she has to work hard against her natural instincts to accomplish this (allowing her person to go away from her!). Also don't use any stay command during this time. The treat in front of her, or the treat container, becomes a visual cue to stay. You can add in a stay command later once she's got the behavior down well, but if you do it too early and she is breaking the stay, then all she learns is that she doesn't HAVE to stay when you say so! The verbal command is just not important at first because the dog doesn't truly understand it (even when we think they do, much of the time they don't really). And since she already associates her stay command with "stay until your owner goes a bit too far, then get up" it's just better to drop it. When you add in a stay command later, you might even want to change the command to avoid the past associations it already has. If you use "stay" you might say "wait" instead, or "contain" or "park it" or whatever works for you. The command itself can be anything you choose.
I've taught my dogs and helped hundreds of others learn to stay using this technique. Even with eight week old puppies I've had great success with this. Most dogs, if they have a good relationship with their owner, want to do things that make their owner happy and earns them rewards. Even our chows do, although they lean more toward the "what's in it for me" attitude than some other breeds .. *L*. But if you can find what the dog likes as a reward, you can teach it to do all sorts of things in order to earn that reward. And you and Java already have shown that you're a great team - she just needs a bit more confidence and understanding with the stay exercise.
Glad to see that you want to use your girl as a therapy dog! All three of my chows have visited at the nursing home, and Khana passed her therapy dog testing when she was quite young. Now she's a Service Dog, which isn't nearly as fun to her as being a therapy dog, but I reward her lavishly and she's happy! And she learned the stay like I described, and can be left on a stay under a table at a restaurant, with people walking all around with plates of food, and me going out of sight to a buffet line - and she hasn't EVER broken that stay. She knows I'll come back and she knows that I'll have really yummy stuff with me (and I share ..*L*).
Good luck, and I hope you post more about your training with Java!
Melanie and the girls in Alaska
Khana (Chow) and Tazer (GSD)
In My Heart: Kylee and Dora (Chows)
Trick and Dawson (GSDs)
Lady (Aussie)
Raven (DSH)
Fireweed (QHx)
Your problem with the stay is not unusual, and in a way it's a "problem" that I can't fault. How can you find fault with a dog that WANTS to be with its owner, right?? But I also know that it can be very important to have a dog that is confident enough to stay while the owner steps away, and I think that you and Java will accomplish that still. I'd like to give you some tips that might help you reach that goal.
I find that a lot of dogs do much better at the stay if they have something to focus on. So I teach the stay with treats on the floor! I find a treat that the dog can barely resist, and then they learn that the only way they can get the treat is to keep their little bottoms (or bellies, in a down-stay) on the floor. I start by having the dog at my left side, and slipping my left hand into the collar so that I can hold the dog in place. I have the dog sit, then without saying anything else I reach out in front of the dog about 2 feet and place a treat on the floor (with my right hand).
I fully expect at this point that the dog will try to get to the treat - and that's fine! She has to learn what DOESN'T work as well as what does, so trying things is perfectly right. When she gets up and tries to go to the treat, I just silently and gently place her back into a sit. If she lays down I put her back into the sit. I don't let her go forward at ALL - I keep my hand in the collar and just keep placing her back into the sit until she finally sits for just a few seconds - then I quickly reach forward, bring the treat to her lips and say "YESSS!! What a good girl! You're SO wonderful!!" as she eats the treat.
Then I do it all over again. After a few repetitions, most dogs are figuring out that if they just stay STILL, the treat comes to them! You'll see them focus intently on the treat, eyes staring at it, body staying absolutely still. This is great. Some dogs take a bit longer and that's okay - every dog learns at their own speed. You want the dog to watch the treat, and to realize that the ONLY way to get the treat is to hold still! I don't say the word "stay" or anything like that during this training - I want the dog to figure out kind of on their own that holding still is the way to get to the treat. And I never EVER EVER allow the dog to get up and go to the treat - that's a perfect way to teach the dog to break stays instead of hold them! It's important to be consistent and always bring the treat to the dog's mouth.
As the dog figures out what she's supposed to do, you start putting the treat out farther and farther. You still have to reach out and put the treat down, but keep it controlled so that your dog doesn't bolt forward and grab the treat. Most dogs will just plant their butts hard against the floor and not move if you've done the initial training right, and gradually you can start to take a step out to put the treat down. You want to work slowly through this - if your dog starts breaking then you're trying to go too fast and you need to go back and work closer in to the dog. Over a period of days or weeks, you work until you can step out a few steps, put the treat down, walk back to the dog and then back out to the treat to bring it to the dog.
Once your dog is doing well with this exercise, you can try something different that will help the dog keep focus while you move farther away. Start putting the treats in a small plastic container. Do the exercise the same way at first but instead of putting a single treat out, put the container out there (with the lid on loosely at first) and when you want to give a treat, open the container and give her a treat. You're starting to put the focus on the container, which is going to allow you to move farther away without worrying that she will break and get the treat at the wrong time. Also start keeping some treats in a pocket, and begin treating part of the time from your pocket instead of from the floor or the container - this will help you transfer away from the floor at some point, although right now it's not important.
Start practicing with putting the treat container a couple feet in front of the dog (sit the dog, reach out and set the container down) and then move to the container and back to the dog, giving a treat either from the container or your pocket (at least half the time the treat should come from the container at this point). Keep working on this until you can walk past the container several feet and back to your dog. Dont' push this! If her butt starts coming up then you're going too far - work more on the basics and go slower in moving away. You want her to gain as much confidence as possible, and the treat container is going to help her do that IF you don't worry her by going too far away too soon. Never try to go out of sight during this training! You want her to succeed as much as possible.
All the way through this training, never use "NO" or any correction. There isn't really a right or wrong to this - she can choose what she wants to do, but she won't get the praise and treats unless she stays! You want to be sure that you find an absolutely delicious treat for her - bits of cooked beef heart, or small cubes of cheddar cheese, or tiny dabs of liverwurst. It helps if she's a bit hungry, too, so practicing before she's fed works better. It's important that the reward be really high for this as she has to work hard against her natural instincts to accomplish this (allowing her person to go away from her!). Also don't use any stay command during this time. The treat in front of her, or the treat container, becomes a visual cue to stay. You can add in a stay command later once she's got the behavior down well, but if you do it too early and she is breaking the stay, then all she learns is that she doesn't HAVE to stay when you say so! The verbal command is just not important at first because the dog doesn't truly understand it (even when we think they do, much of the time they don't really). And since she already associates her stay command with "stay until your owner goes a bit too far, then get up" it's just better to drop it. When you add in a stay command later, you might even want to change the command to avoid the past associations it already has. If you use "stay" you might say "wait" instead, or "contain" or "park it" or whatever works for you. The command itself can be anything you choose.
I've taught my dogs and helped hundreds of others learn to stay using this technique. Even with eight week old puppies I've had great success with this. Most dogs, if they have a good relationship with their owner, want to do things that make their owner happy and earns them rewards. Even our chows do, although they lean more toward the "what's in it for me" attitude than some other breeds .. *L*. But if you can find what the dog likes as a reward, you can teach it to do all sorts of things in order to earn that reward. And you and Java already have shown that you're a great team - she just needs a bit more confidence and understanding with the stay exercise.
Glad to see that you want to use your girl as a therapy dog! All three of my chows have visited at the nursing home, and Khana passed her therapy dog testing when she was quite young. Now she's a Service Dog, which isn't nearly as fun to her as being a therapy dog, but I reward her lavishly and she's happy! And she learned the stay like I described, and can be left on a stay under a table at a restaurant, with people walking all around with plates of food, and me going out of sight to a buffet line - and she hasn't EVER broken that stay. She knows I'll come back and she knows that I'll have really yummy stuff with me (and I share ..*L*).
Good luck, and I hope you post more about your training with Java!
Melanie and the girls in Alaska
Khana (Chow) and Tazer (GSD)
In My Heart: Kylee and Dora (Chows)
Trick and Dawson (GSDs)
Lady (Aussie)
Raven (DSH)
Fireweed (QHx)
Re: She won't "stay"
Melanie, What a beautiful strategy!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart! I am going to try it. I just kept saying, Of course, of course, as I read through that. You are right. She did learn that stay could be broken and nothing was gained of lost! I could never find anything Java had to have. Cooking up something may just do it.
Biscuit my cinnamon colored Cream starts "Manners" class Thursday night. I am going to try this with her if they will permit to do something different then the others are being taught. It is a different trainer so I will just explain that Java failed this technique and could I use something I learned from you with Biscuit. Java doesn't have the arena again till late June but I will work with her here. Thank you so much. It clearly was time consuming to write that all out. I have printed it off and am taking it with me. Thank you again! Sincerely, Debi
Biscuit my cinnamon colored Cream starts "Manners" class Thursday night. I am going to try this with her if they will permit to do something different then the others are being taught. It is a different trainer so I will just explain that Java failed this technique and could I use something I learned from you with Biscuit. Java doesn't have the arena again till late June but I will work with her here. Thank you so much. It clearly was time consuming to write that all out. I have printed it off and am taking it with me. Thank you again! Sincerely, Debi