Local dog killed while being trained by trainer...
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If you can, get a gentle leader harness for Troy. Lily has a medium, Troy would need a large. The advantage is that the lead hooks to the front, and they can't tug you around. Lily has improved immensely. I still suggest finding a fenced area where he can run like a maniac and wear himself out. I don't know about his limp...how long have you had your whirling dervish now? He will never be like Sheena, but you might be surprised to look one day and see a well behaved boy.
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redangie24
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Jeff, here comes a big suprise...I disagree with you again. I took Ivana to petsmart and had a wonderful experience. I think it had to do with the fact that the trainer I choose (there was an option of three) was herself a chow owner, but I am not sure. She spent the whole first class explaining that physical punishment was unacceptable. I was really bored and kept thinking "DUH" but now I see why she went over it. It was a intermideate class so there were some things that she said Ivana would not be expected to do in order to pass the class. She was great and they have this training book that was all about positive reinforcement and no using choke chains and other info that agian I thought was common sense, but now I am seeing why it was there (to help stupid ppl). I just don't think you can lump all petstore training classes and stores togeather. Some are good some are not. You just have to use your judgement.
Have a Chowfastic Day!!
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TiVo's Mom
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That is such a pathetic story. I don't know who makes me madder the trainer or the owner. I think, unfortunately, the bottom line is that a lot of people don't want to take the time to train their dog properly. I know a puppy is a handful. I have occasionally referred to TiVo as "satan's spawn" and gotten completely frustrated with him. But you have to admire that spunk and attitude and work with it, not try to pound it out of them. Just some basic, consistent training works wonders. I'm a little disappointed that the woman adopted another shepherd, that may be too much dog for her. She might have been better of with a small lap dog. We've had a couple of shepherd mixes and they are energetic, but also bright and anxious to learn and please. OK, I'm done. I knew I shouldn't have read the post in the first place when I saw the title.
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Zhuyos mom
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Well thank goodness there are several trees for Troy and Mom to take time outs. There is also a large dog park a few feet away from where we are camping out. Hopefully with the time of our gathering there won't be too many typical dogs so Troy can go at it in the run. I'll share training stuff with you when I meet you on Sunday. Easier than typing things out.Juniper wrote: Sure hope Troy realizes that a chowfest is not for eating/biting chow-chows.
Now, PLEASE don't throw rocks and crucify me, but I sorta feel bad for the owner of the 8 week old shepard. She hired and trusted a so called trainer. I'm sure the owner's heart was racing when she felt that her shepard puppy was being suffocated. Some people are just trusting. But that trainer is STUPID and a criminal! Ack! There is a similiar and controversial technique being done to children who have attention deficit disorder or a form ofit. Weird stuff.
Jennifer how big is this bathroom that Troy spends so much time in, was it you that said they put their Chow in the bathroom while they are at work, if he is locked in the bathroom all day that might be part of your problem. I knew someone that locked their German Shepard in the garage all day when he went to work when the dog was finely let out he went nuts just from having the freedom to move around, jumping all over people and chasing the other dogs around he was so hard to handle they took him back to the shelter, I know the dogs problem was from being locked in the garage all day.
the puppy was 18 months at time of traing. He was adopted at 8 weeks.
Ms. Bernstein adopted an 8 week old german sheperd from the local humane society. She later met Jill Deringer, a trainer with Petco who claims to have trained over 1700 dogs and can bark like 200 different dogs. (says she's been on national talk shows) She hired Ms. Deringer to come to her house and train Ringo, her 18 month old high-spirited, healthy dog.
update:It could be another day or two before necropsy results are available. Investigators are awaiting the necropsy's outcome before determining whether charges will be filed.
Our dogs have food and water available all day and none are over eaters. We have to greet them when we see them. Even if we didn't want to there would be no choice. They dance on their hind legs against you to give kisses and if you try walking away they will jump up and down grabbing your clothes between your teethe for attention. ~just like a child tugging on your shirt...mom, mom, mom...
The remark about the garage kept chows...we have to keep the boys seperated so Mufassa and Bailey (for compansionship) are kept in our centralized a/ced garage all day. They have free run of the garage with food, water and toys. It has not effected their behavior. Although letting them outside when we get home sometimes presents a problem. Yesterday Beatle and Storme were outside so I let the pups into the house. Ken came in from outside and Mufassa thought he was going out. We couldn't let him yet because Beatle was out going potty. Poor boy thought he was going so had already started loosening the muscles! I have never seen someone hold so much!
No, he didn't get in trouble as it wasn't his fault. He was right by the door the entire time.we thru a sheet from the dirty clothes under him and waited until he was fiinished. We had doubts that he was ever going to finish. ~didn't plan on mopping the floor last night. 
Ms. Bernstein adopted an 8 week old german sheperd from the local humane society. She later met Jill Deringer, a trainer with Petco who claims to have trained over 1700 dogs and can bark like 200 different dogs. (says she's been on national talk shows) She hired Ms. Deringer to come to her house and train Ringo, her 18 month old high-spirited, healthy dog.
update:It could be another day or two before necropsy results are available. Investigators are awaiting the necropsy's outcome before determining whether charges will be filed.
Our dogs have food and water available all day and none are over eaters. We have to greet them when we see them. Even if we didn't want to there would be no choice. They dance on their hind legs against you to give kisses and if you try walking away they will jump up and down grabbing your clothes between your teethe for attention. ~just like a child tugging on your shirt...mom, mom, mom...
The remark about the garage kept chows...we have to keep the boys seperated so Mufassa and Bailey (for compansionship) are kept in our centralized a/ced garage all day. They have free run of the garage with food, water and toys. It has not effected their behavior. Although letting them outside when we get home sometimes presents a problem. Yesterday Beatle and Storme were outside so I let the pups into the house. Ken came in from outside and Mufassa thought he was going out. We couldn't let him yet because Beatle was out going potty. Poor boy thought he was going so had already started loosening the muscles! I have never seen someone hold so much!
No, he didn't get in trouble as it wasn't his fault. He was right by the door the entire time.we thru a sheet from the dirty clothes under him and waited until he was fiinished. We had doubts that he was ever going to finish. ~didn't plan on mopping the floor last night. Mommy to Storme, Beatle, Bailey and Mufassa aka Moose.
Re: "So what do you do with a chow pup, after 5.5 weeks of being rescued, he doesn't know the difference between your leg, arm, toes, hands and chew toys? Fights so hard with my 5 yr. old Sheena that she has scabs along her tail, chest arms, legs, neck, which she never had before he arrived. Troy body slams me, body slams Sheena...How do you bond with a chow pup who only has a few moments of calmness..."
I'd reconsider the high protein/low carb diet he's on. Certain proteins build adrenaline and excitability chemistry. High protein formulas are also high energy performance foods.
I'd reconsider the high protein/low carb diet he's on. Certain proteins build adrenaline and excitability chemistry. High protein formulas are also high energy performance foods.
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IliamnasQuest
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Here's a link to the actual story:
http://tinyurl.com/nfknk
Just to clear up one thing, the dog was actually a year and a half old - they'd adopted it at 8 weeks.
The "training" that this person used is based on the concept of the alpha roll, which supposedly teaches the dog that the human is the leader and has the right to set the rules. This dog was evidently out of control to a certain extent - aggressive to people - and the owner brought in this "trainer" to help her with that.
The alpha roll has long been used in the training community. Back in the old days, most people trained using the concepts of Koehler, who was a very harsh trainer but who had a long line of successes behind him (training police dogs and various others). It was common to be told in training classes to grab your dog and flip it onto its back, yelling in the dog's face, when it acted aggressive towards anything. This was to put you in a dominant position and the dog in a submissive position - which was supposed to make the dog accept your position as leader. On some dogs this worked. On some it increased aggression. On some it caused the dogs to hide the aggression, which would later explode out unexpectedly and with no signs ahead of time.
This is the type of training I was first taught some 18 years or so ago. The only trainers in this area were this way, and luckily I never had dogs that needed much correction at the time. I saw some pretty harsh things happen though, and I will admit that I used some techniques that I would never use now. It was my unhappiness with the "force" training that led me on a path to discover more reasonable ways to train. I am primarily a positive reinforcement trainer now, but I still use some corrections. Dogs need to have boundaries just like humans do, and there is nothing wrong (and a lot right) about setting boundaries and consequences. Those consequences just need to be reasonable.
As far as the eating before the dogs and the not greeting - there are dogs that really do benefit from these techniques. Because dogs think like dogs and don't have the mental capability to truly think like humans, we humans need to have the flexibility to understand dog behavior and how to control it with a minimum of physical corrections. One of the ways we can do this is to set rules that the dogs must follow, and to control everything that affects the dog. This can include eating and greeting and going through doorways and sleeping on furniture. Some dogs need ALL of these rules in place. Some need a minimal amount. If you're lucky enough to have dogs that are mild-mannered and don't need these rules, then be thankful. People with wild, high-energy dogs have to find some way to add in some control, and using the rules and the NILIF can be very effective. This needs to be paired with proper management of the dog - meaning the dog needs to have good exercise daily, be managed within the house to avoid damage, etc.
I've seen hundreds of problem dogs and many of those developed the problems because of a lack of leadership on the part of the human. I worked with a little shih tzu that was so dominant that her humans were afraid to put a leash or collar on her - she would bite them and she knew she could get away with it. I had a leash on her the very first session and I never had to use a alpha rollover or anything really harsh - I put her in an exercise pen and followed her around, draping the leash over her back and neck. Every time the leash touched her, she would erupt into snarling and biting - but as the session continued, the aggression diminished and finally I was able to reach down and snap the leash on. This wasn't the cure, but it was a start and with continued practice this dog became accepting. But there were other things that had to be modified. This dog would lay on the pillow on the bed and growl - and the woman said "we can't go to bed until she's ready to get off of the pillow". THIS is a dog that shouldn't have been allowed on the bed. The "Mom" didn't want to make her stay off the bed, just off the pillow, so I told her that when the dog growled just take the edge of the pillow, yank it out from under the dog and put the pillow on top of her instead. It wasn't harsh, it didn't hurt - but at the next training session she reported to me that the dog was now choosing to sleep at the end of the bed instead.
A dominant dog will take full advantage of a non-dominant human. Those of you having no problems with your dogs and who allow them to be the "boss" do not have truly dominant dogs. But look how often in here we read about people having problems with their dogs not holding still for the vet or a groomer - or growling at people who are not a threat. These are signs of dogs who have not learned their proper place - these are dogs that think they have the right to say what happens. This is not good. This is dangerous. It also puts your dog under a higher level of stress. A dog that thinks s/he needs to act defensive and aggressive is not a happy dog (at least at that moment). When we take our proper roles as the leader (and as the partner/parent too - they can be combined very well) then we relieve the dog of having to feel defensive. The dog can give that responsibility to us and they can relax and know that we are going to take care of them. I think that's very important.
A good leader/partner/parent provides safety, mental relaxation, and boundaries for their pets/chows/kids. This includes proper rules, which are specific for each dog. We set the dog up to trust us by being consistent and by showing them that they don't have to be aggressive or upset by simple things like vet visits or grooming or trimming nails or walking in public.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
http://tinyurl.com/nfknk
Just to clear up one thing, the dog was actually a year and a half old - they'd adopted it at 8 weeks.
The "training" that this person used is based on the concept of the alpha roll, which supposedly teaches the dog that the human is the leader and has the right to set the rules. This dog was evidently out of control to a certain extent - aggressive to people - and the owner brought in this "trainer" to help her with that.
The alpha roll has long been used in the training community. Back in the old days, most people trained using the concepts of Koehler, who was a very harsh trainer but who had a long line of successes behind him (training police dogs and various others). It was common to be told in training classes to grab your dog and flip it onto its back, yelling in the dog's face, when it acted aggressive towards anything. This was to put you in a dominant position and the dog in a submissive position - which was supposed to make the dog accept your position as leader. On some dogs this worked. On some it increased aggression. On some it caused the dogs to hide the aggression, which would later explode out unexpectedly and with no signs ahead of time.
This is the type of training I was first taught some 18 years or so ago. The only trainers in this area were this way, and luckily I never had dogs that needed much correction at the time. I saw some pretty harsh things happen though, and I will admit that I used some techniques that I would never use now. It was my unhappiness with the "force" training that led me on a path to discover more reasonable ways to train. I am primarily a positive reinforcement trainer now, but I still use some corrections. Dogs need to have boundaries just like humans do, and there is nothing wrong (and a lot right) about setting boundaries and consequences. Those consequences just need to be reasonable.
As far as the eating before the dogs and the not greeting - there are dogs that really do benefit from these techniques. Because dogs think like dogs and don't have the mental capability to truly think like humans, we humans need to have the flexibility to understand dog behavior and how to control it with a minimum of physical corrections. One of the ways we can do this is to set rules that the dogs must follow, and to control everything that affects the dog. This can include eating and greeting and going through doorways and sleeping on furniture. Some dogs need ALL of these rules in place. Some need a minimal amount. If you're lucky enough to have dogs that are mild-mannered and don't need these rules, then be thankful. People with wild, high-energy dogs have to find some way to add in some control, and using the rules and the NILIF can be very effective. This needs to be paired with proper management of the dog - meaning the dog needs to have good exercise daily, be managed within the house to avoid damage, etc.
I've seen hundreds of problem dogs and many of those developed the problems because of a lack of leadership on the part of the human. I worked with a little shih tzu that was so dominant that her humans were afraid to put a leash or collar on her - she would bite them and she knew she could get away with it. I had a leash on her the very first session and I never had to use a alpha rollover or anything really harsh - I put her in an exercise pen and followed her around, draping the leash over her back and neck. Every time the leash touched her, she would erupt into snarling and biting - but as the session continued, the aggression diminished and finally I was able to reach down and snap the leash on. This wasn't the cure, but it was a start and with continued practice this dog became accepting. But there were other things that had to be modified. This dog would lay on the pillow on the bed and growl - and the woman said "we can't go to bed until she's ready to get off of the pillow". THIS is a dog that shouldn't have been allowed on the bed. The "Mom" didn't want to make her stay off the bed, just off the pillow, so I told her that when the dog growled just take the edge of the pillow, yank it out from under the dog and put the pillow on top of her instead. It wasn't harsh, it didn't hurt - but at the next training session she reported to me that the dog was now choosing to sleep at the end of the bed instead.
A dominant dog will take full advantage of a non-dominant human. Those of you having no problems with your dogs and who allow them to be the "boss" do not have truly dominant dogs. But look how often in here we read about people having problems with their dogs not holding still for the vet or a groomer - or growling at people who are not a threat. These are signs of dogs who have not learned their proper place - these are dogs that think they have the right to say what happens. This is not good. This is dangerous. It also puts your dog under a higher level of stress. A dog that thinks s/he needs to act defensive and aggressive is not a happy dog (at least at that moment). When we take our proper roles as the leader (and as the partner/parent too - they can be combined very well) then we relieve the dog of having to feel defensive. The dog can give that responsibility to us and they can relax and know that we are going to take care of them. I think that's very important.
A good leader/partner/parent provides safety, mental relaxation, and boundaries for their pets/chows/kids. This includes proper rules, which are specific for each dog. We set the dog up to trust us by being consistent and by showing them that they don't have to be aggressive or upset by simple things like vet visits or grooming or trimming nails or walking in public.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Victory
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I think also Melanie that there are a lot of naturally dominate humans on this site as well. I think a lot of the people here have never had a problem dog, child or even cat.
This helps with training I think, because it gives the human the confidence to set rules and be consistent about it without trying to "break" the animal or child.
This helps with training I think, because it gives the human the confidence to set rules and be consistent about it without trying to "break" the animal or child.
Victory, Darkwind, (our angel), Firesong, and Dreamdancer
Thank you SweetPea!
Thank you SweetPea!
I had to laugh about walking ahead of the human to show dominance- Lily tried this. She will get in front of me and try and make me stop. From the first time she ever did this, I put my foot between her hind legs and kind of skittle her forward, never missing a beat. At first, she was very startled, but as time went on, she came to expect a ride on my foot. She doesn't do it much anymore, mostly when she is trying to steer me to the door to let her out. I think the time I was heading for the bathroom in dire need and she stepped in front of me, causing a particular far launching off my foot, cured her.
hmmm..
I didn't put he was aggressive to others because what I read was...
The high-spirited dog became her teenage son's best friend, though the pooch didn't much like others.
to me that just means he doesn't like others very much. My dogs are all that way. They have people they like, very few, and people they don't but they are not aggressive.
I didn't put he was aggressive to others because what I read was...
The high-spirited dog became her teenage son's best friend, though the pooch didn't much like others.
to me that just means he doesn't like others very much. My dogs are all that way. They have people they like, very few, and people they don't but they are not aggressive.
Mommy to Storme, Beatle, Bailey and Mufassa aka Moose.
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IliamnasQuest
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I read a couple of reports, one of them had a statement from the trainer. She said that the dog was "chain aggressive" and that it had not been socialized and had spent most of his life chained to a door. Of course, she put the blame on the owners ...
Regardless, the techniques she used were inappropriate and obviously dangerous. And in the one report it said she poked at the dog in the neck and stomach with her fingers. This is very like a Cesar Millan technique - he likes to poke the dogs in the neck with his fingers to show dominance.
I feel bad for the dog overall. I think it's likely that he didn't have the proper upbringing to start with, and then when he got out of control as a "teenager" they called in someone for a quick fix. I think that the owners are partially to blame in this - especially as the one actually helped by holding his feet while the "trainer" did this to the dog.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Regardless, the techniques she used were inappropriate and obviously dangerous. And in the one report it said she poked at the dog in the neck and stomach with her fingers. This is very like a Cesar Millan technique - he likes to poke the dogs in the neck with his fingers to show dominance.
I feel bad for the dog overall. I think it's likely that he didn't have the proper upbringing to start with, and then when he got out of control as a "teenager" they called in someone for a quick fix. I think that the owners are partially to blame in this - especially as the one actually helped by holding his feet while the "trainer" did this to the dog.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
You must have been watching a different Cesar Millan than the one they have on TV here. I have watched several of the episodes and never seen him "like to poke dogs in the neck to show dominance" I have seen him show and describe touching a dog on the neck to re-focus its attention and break it out of an unwanted train of thought, but there is a big difference between a tap on your sholder and a punch in the face. Must have been a different show.
I purchased one of his books and he tells how to use your hand to poke it the chest. I donot have my book handy or I would quote it.
I didn't read or hear any statements from the trainer, but I have no doubt that the trainer blames the owner and the owner blames the trainer.
Poor Ringo...
I didn't read or hear any statements from the trainer, but I have no doubt that the trainer blames the owner and the owner blames the trainer.
Poor Ringo...
Mommy to Storme, Beatle, Bailey and Mufassa aka Moose.
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katt143143
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reply
some one should put the trainer in jail. that was uncalled for
This woman shall be killed by a Tibeten Mastiff with a strong bite in her neck, then will she know who is the BOSS!
Everyone is equal, dog, person, tree, whatever; even a fly or mosquitoe. How does she see herself as the boss? Then what's the dog? A slave? A toy?
I hate her I hate her I hate her!!!!!!!
Ah!!!!!
Everyone is equal, dog, person, tree, whatever; even a fly or mosquitoe. How does she see herself as the boss? Then what's the dog? A slave? A toy?
I hate her I hate her I hate her!!!!!!!
Ah!!!!!
This woman shall be killed by a Tibeten Mastiff with a strong bite in her neck, then will she know who is the BOSS!
Everyone is equal, dog, person, tree, whatever; even a fly or mosquitoe. How does she see herself as the boss? Then what's the dog? A slave? A toy?
I hate her I hate her I hate her!!!!!!!
Ah!!!!!
The owners shall go & sue her! For millions of dollars!!!
Everyone is equal, dog, person, tree, whatever; even a fly or mosquitoe. How does she see herself as the boss? Then what's the dog? A slave? A toy?
I hate her I hate her I hate her!!!!!!!
Ah!!!!!
The owners shall go & sue her! For millions of dollars!!!