Raw Diet

[Red Dragon]

Can't argue with that. There are a couple of big difference between people like myself with multiple dogs and people with one or two dogs. Not all of my dogs are on the same food, the show and breeding dogs are on a step up in quality grade food. When I had the trouble with the UTI's I knew it was the food, because only the females that were given that food got UTI's, the other females that were on the higher grade food did not get UTI's. The only reason the others got a UTI was because of the change in the formula. I can see bacteria being a problem with that food, it has a schreded meat in it, that could have easily been contaminated. In fact the reason they tell you to always cook ground beef well done is because the grinding process allows bacterial to contaminate the entire meat product, whereas a steak would only have bacterial on the surface.

[Jeff&Peks]

Dosn't matter to me what people feed Sick dogs promaote canine health research with out sick dogs and reasech where would Pekoe be.

[Merlin]

That is going to be your first big mistake, raw food and kibble digest at a completely different rate, you are going to have digestion problems, which will in turn lead to skin problems.

Don't be so sure that all those problems didn't come from the Nutro, other members abandoned that food and saw all those health issues go away. Treats can certainly cause a problem though, especially the grocery store and Walmart types.

This is not exactly accurate information.
Yes, it is true that kibble takes longer to digest than raw food does. The important caveat is that kibble requires different enzymes to be processed, not the same ones used to process raw foods. To feed raw with kibble does not result in skin issues, nor does it result in poor digestion, IF a quality kibble is included.

Food related skin issues are generally a result of poor quality foods, chemicals, or glutens/grains which can lead to candidae albicans. Poor digestion results from eating poor quality foods, which whether eaten alone or with anything else will almost always result in poor digestion.

A dog is not going to necessarily experience poor digestion of a quality kibble is used. Yes, it will take longer to digest, but, it doesn't mean it will be 'poorly' digested. Sorry, I completely disagree with your comment.

The mentality behind mixing the two, is that most raw feeders are more in tune with good health practices, so why would they combine processed foods with natural ones. It's kind of like eating home prepared vegetables, then eat that with pogo sticks. It's the same, if not similar analogy.
It's really important with a raw regime to have accurate information.
JMHO

[Merlin]

I can see bacteria being a problem with that food, it has a schreded meat in it, that could have easily been contaminated. In fact the reason they tell you to always cook ground beef well done is because the grinding process allows bacterial to contaminate the entire meat product, whereas a steak would only have bacterial on the surface.

A dog's stomach is 50% hydrochloric acid. This is why a dog can easily eat sunbaked, three week old road kill without incident.
Generally speaking if meat is badly infected a dog won't even eat it and will seek out other food.
The dogs who succumb to ecoli and salmonella already HAD pre-existing health issues, such as candidae so their acidity pH level in their stomachs was altered by the illness, so yes, bacteria can become a problem. In a healthy dog, this is not a problem. This is why many raw feeders oten offer cider vinegar to the dog for a few weeks to help ensure a low pH.

Cheers
MM

[Red Dragon]

That is going to be your first big mistake, raw food and kibble digest at a completely different rate, you are going to have digestion problems, which will in turn lead to skin problems.

Don't be so sure that all those problems didn't come from the Nutro, other members abandoned that food and saw all those health issues go away. Treats can certainly cause a problem though, especially the grocery store and Walmart types.

This is not exactly accurate information.
Yes, it is true that kibble takes longer to digest than raw food does. The important caveat is that kibble requires different enzymes to be processed, not the same ones used to process raw foods. To feed raw with kibble does not result in skin issues, nor does it result in poor digestion, IF a quality kibble is included.

Food related skin issues are generally a result of poor quality foods, chemicals, or glutens/grains which can lead to candidae albicans. Poor digestion results from eating poor quality foods, which whether eaten alone or with anything else will almost always result in poor digestion.

A dog is not going to necessarily experience poor digestion of a quality kibble is used. Yes, it will take longer to digest, but, it doesn't mean it will be 'poorly' digested. Sorry, I completely disagree with your comment.

The mentality behind mixing the two, is that most raw feeders are more in tune with good health practices, so why would they combine processed foods with natural ones. It's kind of like eating home prepared vegetables, then eat that with pogo sticks. It's the same, if not similar analogy.
It's really important with a raw regime to have accurate information.
JMHO

Well I totally disagree with you. I know for a fact that my dogs were just fine on the kibble before I introduced the raw diet, then they had loads of problems, including skin problems. When I removed the raw diet and went back to strickly kibble the dogs did just fine again.

[Red Dragon]

I can see bacteria being a problem with that food, it has a schreded meat in it, that could have easily been contaminated. In fact the reason they tell you to always cook ground beef well done is because the grinding process allows bacterial to contaminate the entire meat product, whereas a steak would only have bacterial on the surface.

A dog's stomach is 50% hydrochloric acid. This is why a dog can easily eat sunbaked, three week old road kill without incident.
Generally speaking if meat is badly infected a dog won't even eat it and will seek out other food.
The dogs who succumb to ecoli and salmonella already HAD pre-existing health issues, such as candidae so their acidity pH level in their stomachs was altered by the illness, so yes, bacteria can become a problem. In a healthy dog, this is not a problem. This is why many raw feeders oten offer cider vinegar to the dog for a few weeks to help ensure a low pH.

Cheers
MM

Yeah, tell that to all the people who have had their dog upchuck road kill on their floor, obviously the acid in their stomach didn't digest it, and obviously it made them sick. Oh brother! Next time I find some fresh road kill I will mail it to you to feed your dogs if you wanna send you mailing address. In fact there was a dead possum in front of the farm the other day, it should be getting really ripe by now.

[kingalls]

Alright, we have our opinions regarding diet - please keep this civil.

[Merlin]

Well I totally disagree with you. I know for a fact that my dogs were just fine on the kibble before I introduced the raw diet, then they had loads of problems, including skin problems. When I removed the raw diet and went back to strickly kibble the dogs did just fine again.

.....as is your perrogative of course, although you must have the most unique dogs in the world.

and yes, plenty of seasoned prey model raw feeders wouldn't bat an eyelash at roadkill and neither would our dogs!
Cheers
MM

[Red Dragon]

Well I totally disagree with you. I know for a fact that my dogs were just fine on the kibble before I introduced the raw diet, then they had loads of problems, including skin problems. When I removed the raw diet and went back to strickly kibble the dogs did just fine again.

.....as is your perrogative of course, although you must have the most unique dogs in the world.

and yes, plenty of seasoned prey model raw feeders wouldn't bat an eyelash at roadkill and neither would our dogs!
Cheers
MM

Obviously they aren't unique, Jeff posted worse results than I did. And the person who told me to try it had the worst skin and coat of any breeder I know, why I listened in the first place I have no idea.

[Merlin]

Obviously they aren't unique, Jeff posted worse results than I did.

From what I read, Jeff's dog was blocked by a bone that was not masticated.
What you are claiming is entirely something else, and comes to me now that we've had this very same conversation in the past.
Please don't tell me that you're Mr. Purina Man who stands there and swears that he dogs are fine.................

MM

[Red Dragon]

My dogs have done great on Purina for over three years, until they changed the Lamb and Rice formula. If you want to PM me I will give you my vets number and you can talk to him, he will tell you they are healthy as an ox and have the best skin and coat he has ever seen.

Unfortunately I will be changing brands since they changed the formula, I am going back to the Blackwood 3000 (Lamb and Rice) and the Evangers Pheasant and Rice for my show and breeding dogs.

[Jeff&Peks]

[quote="Red Dragon"] he will tell you they are healthy as an ox and have the best skin and coat he has ever seen.

He probably says that to his dates also so I wouldn't take it to seriously.

[Red Dragon]

he will tell you they are healthy as an ox and have the best skin and coat he has ever seen.

He probably says that to his dates also so I wouldn't take it to seriously.

I don't think his wife would care much for that.

[kiwani]

Well I totally disagree with you. I know for a fact that my dogs were just fine on the kibble before I introduced the raw diet, then they had loads of problems, including skin problems. When I removed the raw diet and went back to strickly kibble the dogs did just fine again.

That's known as a herx reaction. When you quickly shifted the established gut flora to the entirely new diet, the resulting yeast die-off in the gut released various toxins. A lot of these toxins get thrown-off through the skin, causing various problems. The toxins are also responsible for increasing inflammation throughout the body until the body is able to detoxify.

As we once discussed, if there isn't a well-developed healthy gut colony balance, it's best to change/upgrade diet in increments to prevent a massive yeast die-off. You first build a good foundation with high potency probiotics and also high potency B-complex to help nourish digestive chemistry, help detox the body, and strengten the gut immune system. A balanced and well developed gut colony makes it easier to digest a wide variety of new foods.

[Red Dragon]

Well I totally disagree with you. I know for a fact that my dogs were just fine on the kibble before I introduced the raw diet, then they had loads of problems, including skin problems. When I removed the raw diet and went back to strickly kibble the dogs did just fine again.

That's known as a herx reaction. When you quickly shifted the established gut flora to the entirely new diet, the resulting yeast die-off in the gut released various toxins. A lot of these toxins get thrown-off through the skin, causing various problems. The toxins are also responsible for increasing inflammation throughout the body until the body is able to detoxify.

As we once discussed, if there isn't a well-developed healthy gut colony balance, it's best to change/upgrade diet in increments to prevent a massive yeast die-off. You first build a good foundation with high potency probiotics and also high potency B-complex to help nourish digestive chemistry, help detox the body, and strengten the gut immune system. A balanced and well developed gut colony makes it easier to digest a wide variety of new foods.

I tried it for over a month and never saw any improvement, the conditions only got worse. Whatever you may get out of raw, if anything, isn't worth all the problems associated with it, at least that is my opinion.

Now if these raw gurus want to post a balanced raw diet and break it down, figure out that the dog is getting all of the required nutrition from a feeding regime, I might try one dog on it, and I want to really stress the work MIGHT. So far none of these raw feeders have come up with a balanced diet, and I expect the reason is because they don't have a clue how to figure it out.

[Merlin]

So far none of these raw feeders have come up with a balanced diet, and I expect the reason is because they don't have a clue how to figure it out.

MOnday
Give your dog a chicken, feathers n all

Tuesday
Give your dog a rabbit, fur n all

Wednesday
A couple of small fish, or one big fish, scales, head n all

Thursday
Did your chow take down a lamb today? ok give it a hunk of lamp. Did it eat the neck? no silly , it started at the rump, got full so burried the rest
(ok no fair), the city chow caught a few large rats instead.

Friday
That chow caught a darn duck today! Lucky chow

Saturday
That chow went and dug up the rest of the lamb. UGH! Hey it's a meal.. .don't complain.

Sunday.
Awwwwwwwwwww poor chow.. didn't catch anything today, thank goodness there are some bones left for him to chew on.

That's as easy and balanced as it gets, and YES you ARE Mr. Purina..... the same ~ *BLANK* ! I had this same useless discussion with some time ago.
Please go to your grave preaching your purina posts. It may not be good for your chows, but it certainly seems to be good for you.

oh please, this is such a futile conversation with you.
Cheers
MM

[Red Dragon]

I asked a very simple question, and obviously you can't answer it, nor has any other raw feeder been able to. You can throw an adult anything that has some nutrition and it can SURVIVE, puppies are a different story. As usual, another raw feeder cannot provide the information on a balanced diet for a dog, much less a puppy. This breed is nothing to be toying with when it comes to nutrition, they have a pile of joint problems and most have allergies.

[kiwani]

...puppies are a different story. This breed is nothing to be toying with when it comes to nutrition, they have a pile of joint problems...

Some more excerpts for the archives:

"For many years it was felt that the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in a diet was more important than the absolute volumes. This has been shown to be inaccurate, and current recommendations are that calcium levels should be approximately .9 1.5% on a dry matter basis."
http://www.workingdogs.com/deboer_elbow2.htm


"The *absolute* level of calcium in the diet, rather than an imbalance in the calcium/phosphorus ratio, influences skeletal development.

Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis) with either normal phosphorus(0.9% dry matter basis) or high
phosphorus(3% dry matter basis, to maintain a normal calcium/phosphorus ratio) had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease. These puppies apparently were unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic calcium excess."
http://personal.palouse.net/valeska/Gro ... energy.htm


"Large and giant-breed dogs are the most susceptible to developmental skeletal disease. Genetics, environment, and nutrition play key roles. ....The large and giant breeds may be limited in their ability to cope with excesses of minerals such as calcium."

http://personal.palouse.net/valeska/Gro ... energy.htm

[Merlin]

I asked a very simple question, and obviously you can't answer it, nor has any other raw feeder been able to. You can throw an adult anything that has some nutrition and it can SURVIVE, puppies are a different story. As usual, another raw feeder cannot provide the information on a balanced diet for a dog, much less a puppy. This breed is nothing to be toying with when it comes to nutrition, they have a pile of joint problems and most have allergies.

I answered your question. Can you read english?

[Red Dragon]

Thank Kiwani, that was exactly what I was getting at. Now how can anyone know what levels the ingrediants are at when they are feeding raw food? We don't have labs in our homes, and even if we did, we are not nutritionist that have done studies on foods to know what are the correct amount of the ingrediants either. Adults need certain vitamins and minerals as well, for a balanced diet they need to be controlled, and protein overload will do more harm than good.

[Red Dragon]

I asked a very simple question, and obviously you can't answer it, nor has any other raw feeder been able to. You can throw an adult anything that has some nutrition and it can SURVIVE, puppies are a different story. As usual, another raw feeder cannot provide the information on a balanced diet for a dog, much less a puppy. This breed is nothing to be toying with when it comes to nutrition, they have a pile of joint problems and most have allergies.

I answered your question. Can you read english?

Is that what that was? I thought it might have been swaheely or something.

[Layla]

I can't say that I have a lab at home, but I also don't have one for my own nutrition & am healthy. I figure that if I can work out a healthy diet for my family, then i can surely work it out for the animals in my home You do need to do the reading behind a raw diet, just like you would a growing child's diet IMO. If you don't want to do that, then raw isn't for you & thankfully, we have a vast pet food industry to help with that. If you are interested I like Mindy's site http://www.k9rawdiet.com/FAQ-p-5.html for questions & links to other resources. I've learnt it's about balance over time, just like it is with humans. I aim for 80% meat, 10% bone & 10% organs. As long as you know what you are feeding & what you are aiming you will be fine. The pet food industry has donw a great job of making people think that they can't work out how to feed their animal. You can, it's just easier not to. that's fine as well, just as long as you are happy with that.

[Rowlee]

I can't say that I have a lab at home, but I also don't have one for my own nutrition & am healthy. I figure that if I can work out a healthy diet for my family, then i can surely work it out for the animals in my home You do need to do the reading behind a raw diet, just like you would a growing child's diet IMO. If you don't want to do that, then raw isn't for you & thankfully, we have a vast pet food industry to help with that. If you are interested I like Mindy's site http://www.k9rawdiet.com/FAQ-p-5.html for questions & links to other resources. I've learnt it's about balance over time, just like it is with humans. I aim for 80% meat, 10% bone & 10% organs. As long as you know what you are feeding & what you are aiming you will be fine. The pet food industry has donw a great job of making people think that they can't work out how to feed their animal. You can, it's just easier not to. that's fine as well, just as long as you are happy with that.

Well said Layla, couldn't have put it better myself. I have no trouble working out how to raw feed my dogs.

[Merlin]

Thank Kiwani, that was exactly what I was getting at. Now how can anyone know what levels the ingrediants are at when they are feeding raw food? We don't have labs in our homes, and even if we did, we are not nutritionist that have done studies on foods to know what are the correct amount of the ingrediants either. Adults need certain vitamins and minerals as well, for a balanced diet they need to be controlled, and protein overload will do more harm than good.

You know, you really have to listen to yourself.

For more than 2500 years, the chow WAS brought up on raw food, cooked or leftover tidbits and other food matter, fallen heads of Ghengis' victims, hands, feet, wildmeats and handouts in Upper Manchuria. They were fine, large, strong dogs without any problems, because if they did have problems, Mother Nature, would have offered natural selection to deal with the ill or feeble. I can guarantee you that they did not have kibble, (which has only been around for 80 years), and they did extremely well. Do you honestly think 100 years ago a chow with entropian would have survived? or a chow with luxated tendons, or displasia would have survived to be able to reproduce?? No.. they would have died, or would have been culled. They would have had to survive bare staples, food they could catch on their own and handouts. - And so they did -

Their problems started when they became an exported product, and the crystal clear components of the chow's downfall is poor breeding practices, over vaccination, poor food, and local environment exposure to pollutants.
It is these core issues that are and will continue to be the downfall of most breeds of dogs because the above 4 components have served to compromise their immune systems.

So for you to stand here and even begin to try to suggest that you need to know, "ingredients" before you can function, is, in itself a source of hilarity.
The commercial dog food industry is the Waste to Profit industry. That's all it is, still is and will be. Most people who are concerned about their dog's health and their own health for that matter have a propensity to NOT subscribe to commercial foods whatsoever. Not for themselves, not for their pets, or at least they try to find ways to inject less commercial products in their daily lives to hope to live healthier.

If you knew anything about quality ingredients you certainly wouldn't be feeding a purina product in the first place, so I refuse to accept your claim that your interest lies in a quality feeding program for your puppies. I stand firm on my opinion that you seem to constantly use this guise of nonsense to hide the real core issue which is most likely your wallet. You constantly try to justify feeding poor quality foods simply because you don't want to admit that with you, it's all about cost.

Even if we take "RAW", out of this conversation entirely, for you to stand up, in 2009 and claim that purina foods help qualm your worries, that you claim to take Soooooooooooo seriously, about what to feed your very important puppies, is enough to make us all roll on the ground laughing our heads off. I'd have far more respect for you if you simply said that you feed what you can afford to feed. There is nothing wrong with honesty.

MM

[Red Dragon]

Thank Kiwani, that was exactly what I was getting at. Now how can anyone know what levels the ingrediants are at when they are feeding raw food? We don't have labs in our homes, and even if we did, we are not nutritionist that have done studies on foods to know what are the correct amount of the ingrediants either. Adults need certain vitamins and minerals as well, for a balanced diet they need to be controlled, and protein overload will do more harm than good.

You know, you really have to listen to yourself.

For more than 2500 years, the chow WAS brought up on raw food, cooked or leftover tidbits and other food matter, fallen heads of Ghengis' victims, hands, feet, wildmeats and handouts in Upper Manchuria. They were fine, large, strong dogs without any problems, because if they did have problems, Mother Nature, would have offered natural selection to deal with the ill or feeble. I can guarantee you that they did not have kibble, (which has only been around for 80 years), and they did extremely well. Do you honestly think 100 years ago a chow with entropian would have survived? or a chow with luxated tendons, or displasia would have survived to be able to reproduce?? No.. they would have died, or would have been culled. They would have had to survive bare staples, food they could catch on their own and handouts. - And so they did -

Their problems started when they became an exported product, and the crystal clear components of the chow's downfall is poor breeding practices, over vaccination, poor food, and local environment exposure to pollutants.
It is these core issues that are and will continue to be the downfall of most breeds of dogs because the above 4 components have served to compromise their immune systems.

So for you to stand here and even begin to try to suggest that you need to know, "ingredients" before you can function, is, in itself a source of hilarity.
The commercial dog food industry is the Waste to Profit industry. That's all it is, still is and will be. Most people who are concerned about their dog's health and their own health for that matter have a propensity to NOT subscribe to commercial foods whatsoever. Not for themselves, not for their pets, or at least they try to find ways to inject less commercial products in their daily lives to hope to live healthier.

If you knew anything about quality ingredients you certainly wouldn't be feeding a purina product in the first place, so I refuse to accept your claim that your interest lies in a quality feeding program for your puppies. I stand firm on my opinion that you seem to constantly use this guise of nonsense to hide the real core issue which is most likely your wallet. You constantly try to justify feeding poor quality foods simply because you don't want to admit that with you, it's all about cost.

Even if we take "RAW", out of this conversation entirely, for you to stand up, in 2009 and claim that purina foods help qualm your worries, that you claim to take Soooooooooooo seriously, about what to feed your very important puppies, is enough to make us all roll on the ground laughing our heads off. I'd have far more respect for you if you simply said that you feed what you can afford to feed. There is nothing wrong with honesty.

MM

I feed what I feel is best for my dogs based on experience, of which I have well over 20 years in this breed. As for my wallet, I bet I make way more than you do, and probably have more than you do, because I don't throw my money away needlessly(most of the time).

Purina has done very well with my dogs, and if they would have left the formula I was feeding alone, I would still be feeding it. I don't normally have sick dogs, and usually the only time we ever see the vet is for a rabies shot or OFA evaluations, so I think I will keep doing what I have been doing.

The only thing I see humorous here is people that think they are feeding a balanced diet with raw food.