Another ruined thread....

[chris]

WHERE? WHO?

[Auddymay]

Happy Ambiguity, it's the phrasing you used. You posed a poorly written question, and became petulant when it was innocently misinterpreted.

Hey Chris, we should camp in the state park, our favorite site has a creek for the dogs to wade on it...rumor has it a kid got bit at the dog beach and they are going to close it down. No notice on the beach rules, and I could not find mention of it in the newspaper archives. I hope it was flawed info!

[chris]

mmm... new DH doesn't "camp" but lets make a plan... what about laborday weekend... cuz last weekend before kids go back to school...????

[IliamnasQuest]

Sam, what would have made the most sense was to state your purpose and then show an example by listing your OWN chows, their problems, their breeder and the backgrounds. Then you would show by example, not expect people to try to interpret your exact (albeit poorly stated) intentions.

Why HAVEN'T you posted your own dogs? I'm sure we'd all like to see what you have produced/owned and how you justify some of the things you've done in your breedings.

My chows are as follows:

KYLEE, lived to 16.5 years old, BYB w/no particular pedigree, sire had entropion and "breeders" bred him anyway. Kylee had entropion which was surgically fixed (successfully) when she was very young. She also was hypothryoid (although she was able to go off the meds when I put her on a raw diet and never tested low again) and she also had growth hormone responsive syndrome (at less than a year old, three months of medication and it never happened again).

DORA, nearly 11, bred by a "show" breeder down south, adopted by me from another person when she was 14 months old. She's had no genetic problems to date, unsure of the background on the testing on her parents. Probably OFA'd on hips but I kind of doubt much more was done (maybe eyes?).

KHANA, 3 years old, bred by Judy Allen of Clos de Lion Kennels in Ontario, Canada, primarily from the Redcloud lines (east coast - Zola Coogan & Paula Titon own Khana's sire). No health problems to date. Her sire is OFA'd hips, elbows, patellas, thyroid, eyes and cardiac. Her dam was OVC'd hips and elbows, eyes certified. She has passed OFA tests on hips, elbows, patellas, thyroid, eyes and cardiac (in addition to her sire, her uncle on her sire's side also passed these six certifications).

I think a thread with breeders who breed for health would be great, but locking it isn't right. How can other breeders be added? And who is to set the criteria for a "good" breeder? Would that be a breeder who has never had more than one puppy in a litter with a genetic health concern? Would it be a breeder who breeds only from stock that is fully certified, and never breeds a dog that has a genetic disease (even if it's a minor form of the disease)? Exactly what parameters would be set to indicate a good breeder from a bad one? I think there are some differences of opinion that will come out on a thread like that - and no one on this site (other than the owner, who PAYS for the webhosting) has the right to really say what can or can't be posted on a thread. WE don't own a thread just because we're the original poster.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[nean007]

Since we can't follow your thread "rules" without being labelled "idiots", why don't you just go start your own little forum where you can dictate and insult all you want. Obviously, this isn't that kind of forum. This is a community of people who will do what most people do which is take a topic in another direction just like we would do in a normal social situation. Or stick to your chow breeders forum. Obviously no one thinks too highly of you (or your precious opinion) around here mainly because you can't seem to maintain your credibility in how you argue. Calling people names (fallacy of ad hominem) and implying that all BYB dogs end up with health problems (fallcy of over-generalization) doesn't help your argument. Plus it seems like you have only two topics you ever post about: breeding (serving your own interests, I might add) and your dislike (hatred?) of Jeff. If your true mission is to persuade people to buy health certified chows (and everything else), try acting like a member of a community, not just someone screaming from the top of his soap-box.

But of course this is just more hot air and I'm an idiot .


So here's my point in language you can understand:
Read my middle finger.

[TJordan]

OK Sam, I checked the OFA site and it would appear that neither of Butters parents were tested. Also, When I got him I really thought I was asking the right questions so I would end up with a healthy chow. I was told that entropian and hip displaysia had been breed out (not knowing exactly how this was achieved). I was lied to, I didn't know to ask about certifications. So I understand your purpose is to educate on what to look for. I would have loved to be able to find exactly these kinds of answers when looking into my chow. I have been educated by this site and I am thankful, I think the idea of a good breeders list and what to look for are excellent ideas.

Having said that, you really just have to take it down a notch. If people feel offended or attacked they will respond the same.

Now, I do know the parents of Butters, but didn't find them on the OFA site. Butters has had Hip Displaysia. He has really bad tummy issues, and a bit of a temperment issue. Oh and the breeder did say up to six months they would take the chow back. Which is BS because Hip displaysia doesn't rear it's ugly head until about then. So they gave the illusion of standing behind their breeding but not much of a follow thru-
Hope I answered OK!

[Jeff&Peks]

"and a bit of a temperment issue."

Unless the Chow has brain problems I don't think temperament is a breeder issue, I've never seen better temperaments then these Chows coming out of shelters and you know their not from the cream of the crop breeders. Most of the temperament problems from Chows on this site including Pekoe is called spoiled. Onyx just spent forth of July with about 50 people and kids in our back yard then went across the street to concerts in the parks with hundreds of people and fire works she loved every minute of it and never had a problem, People were petting her and Kids were climbing all over her she couldn't get enough attention. Pekoe spent the day growling at anyone that came near her. Onyx is straight out of a puppy mill and spent 3 years in a cage, I swear this is the first time she ever saw grass and trees and has had any contact with people. Kids in the neighborhood are knocking on the door everyday " can I walk Onyx" because they all know I can't walk Pekoe and Onyx together.

[TJordan]

Well Jeff, sadly with Butters I think it goes beyond spoiled. He really does have some issues with his brain chemicals. In fact I don't know if Chows can have Multiple Personality Disorder, but that would be close to how he reacts to different things at different times. I will admit he is spoiled rotten, but on top of that he does have some issues.

[Red Dragon]

You didn't say CHOW you said dog.

Jeff, try reading that again, it clearly says "CHOW".

[Red Dragon]

Sam, what would have made the most sense was to state your purpose and then show an example by listing your OWN chows, their problems, their breeder and the backgrounds. Then you would show by example, not expect people to try to interpret your exact (albeit poorly stated) intentions.

Why HAVEN'T you posted your own dogs? I'm sure we'd all like to see what you have produced/owned and how you justify some of the things you've done in your breedings.

My chows are as follows:

KYLEE, lived to 16.5 years old, BYB w/no particular pedigree, sire had entropion and "breeders" bred him anyway. Kylee had entropion which was surgically fixed (successfully) when she was very young. She also was hypothryoid (although she was able to go off the meds when I put her on a raw diet and never tested low again) and she also had growth hormone responsive syndrome (at less than a year old, three months of medication and it never happened again).

DORA, nearly 11, bred by a "show" breeder down south, adopted by me from another person when she was 14 months old. She's had no genetic problems to date, unsure of the background on the testing on her parents. Probably OFA'd on hips but I kind of doubt much more was done (maybe eyes?).

KHANA, 3 years old, bred by Judy Allen of Clos de Lion Kennels in Ontario, Canada, primarily from the Redcloud lines (east coast - Zola Coogan & Paula Titon own Khana's sire). No health problems to date. Her sire is OFA'd hips, elbows, patellas, thyroid, eyes and cardiac. Her dam was OVC'd hips and elbows, eyes certified. She has passed OFA tests on hips, elbows, patellas, thyroid, eyes and cardiac (in addition to her sire, her uncle on her sire's side also passed these six certifications).

I think a thread with breeders who breed for health would be great, but locking it isn't right. How can other breeders be added? And who is to set the criteria for a "good" breeder? Would that be a breeder who has never had more than one puppy in a litter with a genetic health concern? Would it be a breeder who breeds only from stock that is fully certified, and never breeds a dog that has a genetic disease (even if it's a minor form of the disease)? Exactly what parameters would be set to indicate a good breeder from a bad one? I think there are some differences of opinion that will come out on a thread like that - and no one on this site (other than the owner, who PAYS for the webhosting) has the right to really say what can or can't be posted on a thread. WE don't own a thread just because we're the original poster.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Well, after 2 1/2 pages of useless garbage mixed in with a few responses to a serious question, I see no need to go any further with this thread, it is ruined and people obviously have a hard enough time reading a post as it is, so trying to read through all the garbage and make sense out of it would be a stretch for most.

If you don't lock a thread started about how to find a good breeder it will just be loaded up with useless garbage too, and if not stickied it will just fall off the main page never to be seen again. Which would just pretty much be another useless post.

[Red Dragon]

Since we can't follow your thread "rules" without being labelled "idiots", why don't you just go start your own little forum where you can dictate and insult all you want. Obviously, this isn't that kind of forum. This is a community of people who will do what most people do which is take a topic in another direction just like we would do in a normal social situation. Or stick to your chow breeders forum. Obviously no one thinks too highly of you (or your precious opinion) around here mainly because you can't seem to maintain your credibility in how you argue. Calling people names (fallacy of ad hominem) and implying that all BYB dogs end up with health problems (fallcy of over-generalization) doesn't help your argument. Plus it seems like you have only two topics you ever post about: breeding (serving your own interests, I might add) and your dislike (hatred?) of Jeff. If your true mission is to persuade people to buy health certified chows (and everything else), try acting like a member of a community, not just someone screaming from the top of his soap-box.

But of course this is just more hot air and I'm an idiot .


So here's my point in language you can understand:
Read my middle finger.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was my turn to baby sit and pamper the children. And same too you by the way!

[Jeff&Peks]

You didn't say CHOW you said dog.

Jeff, try reading that again, it clearly says "CHOW".

Re: List your dogs health problems.....

No matter how many times i read it forward and backwards it still says dog. Except if you read it backwards it says Gods. Where you talking about before or after you edited it. On the west coast there is a difference in breeds Chows, Gsd's, Lab's Etc, depending on the area you live, East LA they are refered to as household providers (breeders) Beverly hills they are refered to as matching ensambles (accessories) but I guess In the farm lands Dawggg is A Dawgg.

[Red Dragon]

This was a thread about the health problems of your dogs, but as you can see the usual chatter boxes with nothing useful to contribute ruined it. Below is the question I asked and had one person that contributed, thank you Jacqui.




OK, how about everyone list what is wrong with your Chow and tell whether or not the parents were tested and certified clear of the condition before the breeder did the breeding. Did the breeder stand behind their bad breeding?

We don't need to hear all the "I'm Sorries" either, keep it to the point of the subject and people just list their dogs conditions and whether or not the parents were tested and CERTIFIED.

Second paragraph Jeff, first sentence, see that word that says Chow? That was the original sentence and has not been edited. The paragraph above that was added after the thread was ruined by needless chatter!

[Red Dragon]

Sam, if this thread is going to keep you from posting uncalled for remarks on a happy thread, I am happy to answer. I have PM-ed you on Leonora's pedigree ages ago, so you know which breeder she came from and from which line. If anyone want's to know the name of the breeder, I'm happy to answer in PM as I have done in several occasions.

It should be suffice to say, unless some of you are researching for a possible puppy, that my dear Leonora came from a breeder in FL. They do not test for OFA, and my communication with the breeder went cold when I told them Leonora was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia at around the age of one. She had operations on both elbows, and by the time she was operated at the tender age of 1yr 3m/s, she'd developed arthritis, which flares up from time to time. She is not on medication as such, but is up to her gills in supplements for life. She will be three come October this year. The breeder was very, very helpful in answereing all my questions for the new puppy up till then. Have been in the business for a long time. I visited their internet site for the first time since early 05 just recently, and couldn't help but raise my eyebrows to see a picture of Leonora on their site. I did give them permission before the communication ceased, so I shouldn't complain. They do publicise to aim for "touchable chows" or something to that effect, and indeed Leonora has got a very good disposition with people.

I am not in the market for new addition to our family. If I was, I would look for a breeder that tests. However, it is not easy to search for those breeders. Sam, I would very much appreciate if you can start a thread on a list of breeders who do test and add to the list as you find more of those good people. I am sure those who are actively searching for a chow would come to you privately for advice, if on the board long enough, but not everyone stays long enough to fully understand the working of this site. The thread should not to be taken as free ad for the breeders, but a compliment to those who actually care enough to test.

OK, that's from a kitchen drinker. I'm cooking roast beef tonight w/ the help of champagne, hmmm ok Californian bubbly - the only domestic bubbly Jackey allowed in the WH . Am I making any sense?

Big Baby Leonora's mum

Leo's mum, I wanted to tell you that the state of Florida has a lemon law for pets. Since I am sure you have spent above and beyond the cost of Leonora in vet bills, you would be entitled to a full refund from the breeder. What you need to do is call the breeder and tell them you want a full refund for her or you will turn them in to the Attorney General, my guess is you will probably get your money. But if they want to give you a hard time, just contact the Attorney General and see what you need to do to file a complaint and they will make the breeder refund your money.

[Red Dragon]

Here are the other states that have pet lemon laws, those with pets that have serious health issues may have rights to full refunds.

Sixteen states (Arizona, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Vermont, and Virginia) have enacted so-called “lemon laws” — consumer protection measures solely geared to provide specific recourse to members of the public who purchase sick or diseased animals from pet shops. In states where there is no lemon law, the state attorney general’s office, the state department of consumer affairs or the Better Business Bureau may have jurisdiction to address consumer disputes with a particular pet shop. These states also require pet shops to disclose particular information to purchasers and prospective purchasers, which may include the name and contact information of the breeder, any veterinary care provided to the animal prior to sale, a guarantee of good health, the animal’s vaccination history, recommendations for spay/neuter, and/or species-specific care guidelines.

[LEO's mum]

Sam, I do find your knowledge valuable to the site. I have asked you and Carla for help and advise to which both of you have willingly given, and I am very grateful for that. It's the ranting and bickeriing that I find distateful, some of which might or might not be your own making and the blame should be on not of a small minorities' shoulders, either.

Since Mods are not replying to my open question, or taking time to do so, why don't you start a happy thread? Didn't you mention a while ago that you are expecting a litter or two? Why not share the puppy pics with the site? Knowing that this site does not allow commercial transactions of chows, put a thread up if and when they are spoken for. This is a chow site, most of us would like to see well cared for chowlings. I, for one, would love to see your chowlings.

With that note, I'm done with this thread.

Chow 4 Now,
Leonora's mum

Oh, I just saw your post re refund. Thank you for the info. But I'm done with that breeder and that's that. As I said before, there is no 100% perfection in living matters, you and I included. I can live w/o the hastle of petty legal procedures in pursuit of small change. I've got better things to do.... like walking LEO, talkiing to LEO, brushing LEO and seeing what other chowlings are up to on this site

[Red Dragon]

That's funny, if I started a happy thread about the new litter it would only turn into a breeder bashing by the rescue fanatics on the site, and I would be accused of killing 8 shelter dogs. I will just keep my litters to myself thank you, but if you or anyone else would like to see pictures feel free to email me and I will be glad to send pictures. They are 8 weeks today and I will be doing new photos for everyone.

[IliamnasQuest]

Sam, if you really want to promote health certifications and proper breeding in chows, you need to learn some tact and humility.

You're back-pedaling SO fast and I know that posting your own breeding information is not going to happen - which is hypocritical, in my eyes.

When I do a search at http://www.offa.org for "Red Dragon" it only lists a few of your breeding. Po-Po and Lu-Lu are from the breeding where you bred a bitch that doesn't have any listed elbow or patella certifications (and only has fair hips) to a dog that ONLY has a hip certification and no elbow/patella/thyroid/eye certifications. The offspring both have problems, including bad elbows, hips and patellas on the one.

The other Red Dragon chow listed is one born January 2006. She has hip dysplasia. There are NO OFA ratings listed for either of her parents.

While I think that it's VERY good that you share the information so that other breeders can make more informed decisions, I just don't quite get this whole attitude of yours that makes it sound like you're working SO hard to better the breed. I know you're probably going to say that I don't have all the information, and you're right - I don't. So please inform us! Instead of doing this silliness where you want everyone to show how bad their chows turned out, try telling us what YOU are doing to take a step away from the problems you've already bred. Since there is no information other than what's listed on the OFA site, your proclamations of your own worthiness as a breeder are falling kind of flat at this point. I would truly be interested in knowing what breedings you're doing to help move the breed in the right direction.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Red Dragon]

Melanie, you don't even have half the story about my dogs, and you don't know squat about breeding dogs either, so go crawl back in your cave and hug your dog or something.

If you don't like the fact that something wasn't tested on any dog I used you should take that up with the owner of that dog. If you don't like the dysplastic dog that is listed on the OFA site with my name on it, you should take that up with her breeder not me. If you don't like the other dogs conditions that I have placed in pets homes due to poor breedings you should take that up with their breeders as well.

Since you are doing nothing but probing for a witch hunt I have no need to tell you anything about any of my dogs or puppies. That information on the OFA site is for future breeders, not idiots like you that are looking for someone to bash.

[IliamnasQuest]

Sam, I'd be glad to read anything you want to tell us about your breedings. I am 100% interested in knowing how you are improving the breed, because I do think that improvements are needed and conscientious breeders should be working toward healthier and more sound chows. But since you refuse to share any information, we have no way of knowing what YOU mean by "bettering" the breed. We have no way of knowing if you're even a good breeder yourself.

You keep saying that I don't know anything about breeding dogs. Just because I haven't allowed my dogs to mix sperm with eggs doesn't mean I don't have knowledge. I don't think a person has to run out and start breeding (especially if those litters end up with genetic health problems) in order to understand the concepts of genetics, health certifications, temperament issues, etc. I suppose all male OB/GYNS know nothing about having babies because they can't actually become pregnant themselves - or oncologists don't really know anything about cancer because they haven't actually had cancer - or an architect really knows anything about building structure because they haven't put nail to board. Your logic is completely skewed and I think it's because you haven't had much success in the breeding of chows (I'm speculating here, of course, because you refuse to tell us what you actually know/have done) and so you try hard to discredit anyone else who may not agree entirely with you.

I have no doubt that breeding my dogs would open me up to new knowledge. I may or may not breed someday - but in the meantime, I study and research and talk to breeders I respect. I look at the chows currently out there and I know what I would want to breed for and what I would want to avoid. I'm fully aware that genetics are sometimes unpredictable and all you can do is the best possible.

I have never, once, seen you willing to have an honest, open, knowledgeable discussion about breeding. You get angry and nasty and no one wants to talk to you anymore. This thread fell apart because of YOU and no one else. Why so defensive, Sam?

Melanie and the currently non-breeding gang in Alaska

[Red Dragon]

Yes you are speculating Melanie, that is all you ever do about any of the breeders except the one your Khana came from, and I could tell you a thing or two about that line.

You have been on every site in the country on a witch hunt with every one of the breeders in the country just about, so why would I tell you anything about what I have done or what I am in the process of doing?

All the book smarts in the world won't get you anywhere with this breed, you just have to get in the gutter with the rest of us and learn which lines are actually good, and which lines are really really bad. There is no perfect pedigree out there, they are all a convoluted mess, some are better than others though, and there are those that are worth working with and developing a sound healthy line from. And then just when you think you have it figured out you will get a big surprise that some dirtbag left you from ten generations back.

Go breed your dog that passed all the tests if she is so great and come back in two or three years and tell me how that went, then I might talk to you, until then you are wasting your breath.

[Red Dragon]

By the way Melanie, I have 28 certifications on dogs in less than the four years I have been involved with show dogs. I am about to add a substantial amount to that list, that should keep you busy speculating!

[janet]

hellloooooooooo can anyone say PSYCHO??????
welcome to crazy............. population one. that would you, sam sam the breeding man.
what is your problem???? treat people like you like to be treated sir.
obviously you enjoy being treated like $hit.
have a nice day.

[chownuzzle]

Sam I sometimes read posts and notice that you can provide very useful information. Most the other times I find that you post things in a automatic need to attack people. I believe forums like this one are created for facts yes but also to provide support. I am understanding person and like seeing things through each person point of view. I can see yours and can see how this could be frustrating. However, you know that when you posted this thread you thought in your mind this person will say this and this other idiot will say this and so on. So you actually started this thread only to provoke further bickering. While some of information you have posted can be very helpful it is quickly overshadowed by your hostility. I have only been part of this forum for about a week and you've shown lots of negativity. I'm not taking sides nor trying to be part of an argument but I don't hold back when something is wrong.

[cheriekynb]

FIRST Chow - Cinnamon Chow, rescued by me when she was 2. Lucy.. Champion lines, flagged as NON show quality on her AKC papers.. reasons:
Retinitus Pigmantosis
Arthritis in her knees (now it would be ACL??)

bad skin, bad allergies *both air and food*

GREAT disposition (Vet said "wow, too bad for all the genetic disorders, she would have been a great addition for breeding, I've never seen such a wonderful disposition in a Chow"

edited because I forgot to add--
rescue, don't know the breeder-- no way of knowing if there are any certs.