Puppy mills in SoCal?

Talk about anything with your fellow Chow Chow regulars.

Moderator: chowadmin

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:06 pm

Hello, I am writing to ask for advice and info, if anyone out there has it! My husband and I have been looking for a chow pup for about 6 months. We did, finally, come across a litter posted on Craigslist (my friend found the ad and sent it to me, I never go on Craigslist for animals) and so i decided to contact the ad asking for further info on the litter. I learned the puppies were taken from their mom at around 4-5 weeks of age and i immediately decided that it was not a good idea to pursue this any further. They said the parents were in Arizona and the puppies were here in SoCal?! Anyway, that does sound like a puppy mill, correct? Well, I turned them down and continued looking. It's been 4 weeks and I just got an email from those same people offering a female puppy to me for next to nothing because "their landlords need her out and she will be going to the shelter if she isnt adopted". I was thinking I might take her to avoid her going to a bad situation but I'm really hesitant, as you can imagine. She didn't have enough time with her mom to learn proper behavior and I'm afraid if I do get this puppy out of that house that she will have loads of problems. I have never owned a chow, but have had German shepherds, great Danes and golden retrievers. My heart aches for this baby!! I don't want to make a bad decision and I certainly have no intentions of supporting puppy mills.... What would you do? It's not the cost, I don't want anyone to think that. We have a large sum of money set aside for a puppy, but we planned on finding a reputable breeder. We are set on a puppy versus a rescued adult because we do have children, who are VERY respectful of animals and know how to behave, but we are more comfortable with a chow puppy growing up and knowing our children from the get go. Please advise! I can't get this poor girl off my mind.

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:48 pm

I should add, I have a 7 year old golden retreiver. He is neutered and super friendly, but I don't want to put him at risk by bringing in a puppy that might be aggressive in the near future. Thanks everyone.

wokman
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: Illinois, U.S.A.

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby wokman » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:53 pm

A great example of how Chows have been mislabeled as dangerous by people who do not understand their intelligence. The problem is if you take the Puppy; you encourage the breeder to continue their irresponsible behavior. The problem is if you do not take the Puppy it ends up possibly in a bad situation. You cannot save them all, but you want a Puppy; your conscious is bothering you. No Breeder can guarantee a perfect Puppy even if the Parents are known. I have read taking a Puppy from the Mother can lead to health problems. Maybe someone else can give some input that has had experience with early separation problems.

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:13 pm

I never labeled chows as dangerous. I'd be JUST as worrried about any other breed if I didn't know them well. Being taken away from its parents too early can make a HUGE difference in the temperament of ANY canine, but I personally do not know enough about this particular breed to make a confident decision about taking this puppy. If it were a great dane or german shepherd, I'd take it in a heartbeat because I am very knowledgeable with them and I know that I could, more than likely, raise it to be a normal and adjusted animal. I hope someone can give me advice specifically about puppies being removed from the mother too soon. I have read recently about the puppy mills here in southern california and how they are producing beautiful pups with terrible temperaments, because of being taken away from mom. But I'm wondering, are the temperaments bad just because they were taken away too soon OR because they didn't have a strong enough pack leader in the home they entered into to help them learn what their moms were unable to teach them?

My close friend has a chow, he found it as a puppy after it had been hit by a car... he treated it and decided to keep him. He is a beautiful dog but he is extremely aggressive towards strangers. I always thought it had to be lack of leadership from my friend as well as lack of socialization with humans, animals AND unfamiliar situations. But, again, I've never owned one so I'm not entirely familiar with their behaviors. Any animal can be aggressive, and in no way am I labeling chows this way. Its like pitbulls- they have a horrible reputation but they are, in actuality, incredibly smart, loving and loyal.

I am a strong pack leader to my retriever, and was able to train my "untrainable" dog once I got him into my possession at 3 years old. I've had similar experiences with all of my rescued animals, but I don't think its unreasonable to ask advice from people who are much more knowledgeable with this beautiful breed than I am.

Thanks for any helpful input you guys can give me. The pup is supposed to go to the shelter tomorrow, I still haven't made up my mind so please, if you can give your two cents, I would appreciate it.

Rory's Dad
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 1708
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:48 am
Location: Mansfield, MA USA

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Rory's Dad » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:00 pm

Aside from the obvious issues that have been identified...any pup removed from the litter too early poses problems. In chows, this may be exaggerated due to their needs for socialization.

I would worry more about the source and contact efforts. Craigslist in itself is a terrible resource for purchasing a puppy. It is renowned for scams and personal info breaches. The fact that someone re-contacted you based on a prior inquiry is not good. They may in fact be offering a dog that doesnt actually exist to obtain your address or other personal info. Reputable breeders do not offer pups through Craigslist. Even non-reputable breeders use other sites.

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:14 pm

Thank you for your reply, no personal info has been requested or given. They really want this pup out of their house, asking me to meet them at a petco about 40 miles away. Rorys dad, my exact worries were due to the fact that from what I've read, socialization is such an important factor for these dogs to be properly adjusted. *sigh* it's definitely looking like I'm going to have to pass on this pup. I really hate the idea of her sitting at the shelter and getting adopted by someone who only sees a cute ball of fur, not realizing that she may need a lot of work to help her adjust. I also got in contact with a dog trainer who has two chows herself, and she is advising that I pass as well. She rescued both of her chows, one is very well socialized and the other isn't. The one who isn't has been with her for 5 years and still cannot be around strangers. She wont bite but she gets very anxious and growls.

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:17 pm

She told me that the pup may be perfect but more than likely, she will have behavior problems and separation anxiety and would not be a good fit for someone with children. She also is highly against it so these people are less likely to sell pups from a mill.

I'd still love to hear anyone else's opinion on the matter, though!

User avatar
Tippsy'smom
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:28 am
Location: McDonough, GA
Contact:

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Tippsy'smom » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:41 pm

To be honest, I don't think I could let the puppy end up at the shelter... Unless I could watch the shelters it could end up at and adopter as soon as she showed up there. But then again, I've faced quite a few issues with my mix boy, Jasper, who we rescued off the streets at about 5 weeks old, but I didn't raise him any different than I did any other puppy that I've raised; and I wouldn't think twice about having to deal with any issues.

From day one we socialized him with family and friends and their animals until he was done with his vaccinations and was allowed to go out in public with me. And he's NEVER shown a sign of aggression to other people he has met. He HAS had issues with select dogs he's met but I don't blame him because hey, who likes everyone they meet? From day one, I knew he had fear issues with cars (we think he was thrown out of a car). He was afraid of the large black garbage cans that get sat on the street. He had separation anxiety and was food aggressive/a resource guarder. However, now, all of that is non-existent in him. He's rather amazing and super sweet if I do say so myself. And all it took was consistency, socialization, and my dedication to him. There were many times his behavior made me cry but I knew I couldn't give up on him. And we've definitely lived by the saying "you aren't given the dog you want, you're given the dog you need."

We have more issues out of my mom's yorkie and Chihuahua who were with their mothers and siblings until they were 10 weeks old, had the same socialization, but no training; than I have with Jasper.

As I said, I would take the puppy, but that's just me. Hopefully, now that they've een pressured by their land lord to get the puppy gone, and they don't actually HAVE the parents, they'll give up on selling puppies. But I can only hope that if she does go to the shelter that she'll actually get adopted by a dedicated owner who will take the time she needs and deserves; and doesn't end up PTS like so many chows (adults and puppies alike).
Jess
R.I.P. Cinder~1992-1994, Tippsy~9/00-4/11, Jasper~10/08-10/14, Todd~2/11-7/15
Dixie: mix Rebel: mix

wokman
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: Illinois, U.S.A.

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby wokman » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:39 am

Sorry for the rant about Chow aggression in the beginning of my Post. It seems often Aggression is a topic for people looking at the Chow Chow breed for the first time. They say owners are like their dogs, so I sent the wrong message.
After rereading your Post and the other responses, I think you should stay with Plan A, the reputable Breeder.
If you do decide to meet the Puppies owner I would suggest meeting at a Police Station. As Rorys Dad said a lot of scams out there and a tech savvy person can glean information about you from your Email address I have been told.
There are many good Chows out there thanks to the economy, I recently found one, probably a Pet store/Puppy Mill Chow but smart and friendly and blending in with my two Senior Rescues which have been with me for years.
There is a Rescue in Atlanta, Georgia and one in New York state that can transport a dog that meets your requirements, if you adopt.

User avatar
oceans
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 11:47 am

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby oceans » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:03 am

Socallady85 wrote:Thank you for your reply, no personal info has been requested or given. They really want this pup out of their house, asking me to meet them at a petco about 40 miles away. Rorys dad, my exact worries were due to the fact that from what I've read, socialization is such an important factor for these dogs to be properly adjusted. *sigh* it's definitely looking like I'm going to have to pass on this pup. I really hate the idea of her sitting at the shelter and getting adopted by someone who only sees a cute ball of fur, not realizing that she may need a lot of work to help her adjust. I also got in contact with a dog trainer who has two chows herself, and she is advising that I pass as well. She rescued both of her chows, one is very well socialized and the other isn't. The one who isn't has been with her for 5 years and still cannot be around strangers. She wont bite but she gets very anxious and growls.






My thoughts are you seem to have the experience with dogs that have started out with issues and helped them. Also you stated you know a trainer that has chows herself that she rescued so you would have someone to ask questions and seek advice if needed as well as this site. You stated your children seem respectful and knowledgeable of handling of animals, which is great. Myself, i would get the pup and see what happens. Believe it or not but this pup could turnout to be a very special chow to you. Remember just because you spend a lot of money and buy from a reputable breeder does not always mean you will get the perfect chow. Please keep us updated:)

612guy
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby 612guy » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:39 pm

Our Brutus came from a breeder with many many many years of raising chows. He's perfect and is the direct result of all the people and their time devoted to the chow breed. Our boxer Lexi was adopted and we were her 4th home. She has her quirks with other female dogs , jealousy, and separation anxiety. But I don't think there is a sweeter boxer.

You just have to ask you self as everyone does when they get a dog/puppy. Do you want adopted or from a breeder? Once you know that you can start looking for that special guy or gal. But I would suggest a gal because your golden is a boy. Good luck.

Image

612
Image

Brutus

User avatar
Victory
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 3658
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:03 am
Location: North Chesterfield, (Right outside Richmond) Virginia
Contact:

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Victory » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:23 pm

From what I've read, and observed the main problem most puppies have who are seperated too soon from mom and sibs is seperation anxiety, along with fear and wariness. The last can be exaggerated in a chow. However, you have a couple of aces up your sleeve, first you are an experienced dog owner and you've owned one independent breed already, the GSD. You also have an adult well adjusted male dog living with you. The female puppy will most likely latch onto him as a mother/sib substitute taking a lot of her queues from him. My Firesong came to me at about a year of age, she was food aggressive, wary of everything new, and had no leash manners at all. I worked with her, but she also learned a lot of things from my adult male, Darkwind who was the most laid back chow I've ever had.

I would also be fearful of health issues. Most of these breeders don't bother with health screenings, they also breed the females so often that they are run down and the resultant puppies have sometimes serious health issues, (bad hearts being very common with chows bred like this)

I'm like Jess, I'm afraid I would have to take the pup, just to save her from being sold to another puppy mill breeder, or a fighter or some other horrible circumstance. Then I'd make dang sure this person was known as a bad breeder. I have a big ole' vindictive side...comes with age I think...


This issue is one I feared would result because LA and other parts of SoCal have banned all sales of puppies in pet stores. I knew the breeders would find another way.
Victory, Darkwind, (our angel), Firesong, and Dreamdancer
Image
Thank you SweetPea!

User avatar
Victory
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 3658
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:03 am
Location: North Chesterfield, (Right outside Richmond) Virginia
Contact:

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Victory » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:26 pm

612guy--Brutus looks like he's really enjoying our snow. In Minneapolis today it's 5 degrees right now. Where are you located? Is it nice and cold there too? Does Brutus love the cold?
Victory, Darkwind, (our angel), Firesong, and Dreamdancer

Image

Thank you SweetPea!

612guy
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby 612guy » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:57 am

Victory-- Brutus does seem to like the cold too. Soon after I call him in he wants back out. This morning it's -11 degrees and he's acting the same way. Just so the snow is packed down and can't get between the toes all of my chows have enjoyed the cold. But i do keep an eye on them and don't let them out as long when it's this cold. We live is St. Michael and that's not far from Brooklyn Center. You've ask a different time but must of forgot.

612
Image

Brutus

User avatar
cherriemater
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:59 pm
Location: Johannesburg, MI
Contact:

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:30 am

Desperate to read what the outcome was ... and see pictures!! What a loving lady you must be and I hope this story turns out to be a tremendous rescue story!! Please please let us know. :D
Image
Joe and Marti Martin ... Chow Chow lovers for Life (RIP Kimba 06/03/2011)

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:44 pm

Thank you all for your replies. As it turns out, I contacted them the evening before she was supposed to go to the shelter, as I said I would, and they said that they decided to send her back to where her parents are :(. I'm afraid she was probably sent back to become a breeder momma :( I wish I had acted immediately but they acted premature to what the original arrangement was. They told me they'd wait for my call that evening before deciding her fate... Sigh... I have put out as much information as I can to the local rescues that I know. Everyone is keeping an eye out for them. If chow pups start popping up again in their area, animal control will probably do a welfare check to assess the situation. A friend of a friend is an AC officer, so that helps out.

I am still kicking myself though, but I'm really happy to know about the rescues who are willing to transport. I will be checking them both out as soon as I submit this message :)

Socallady85
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Re: Puppy mills in SoCal?

Postby Socallady85 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 pm

Victory, I actually know of a few stores that sell puppies but the Craigslist business is BOOMING. I can't stand to go on there because I can't save them all. I wish I could! So many beautiful animals. Especially pitts being bred Over and over. For a breed with such a bad rep, there are thousands and thousands of them out there. Ugh, it kills me.


Return to “Community Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests