Wow...

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Tippsy'smom
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Wow...

Post by Tippsy'smom »

My best friend and I decided to take my group of dogs to Petsmart for a little manner work (a refresher for D&J and real work for Todd) in public. Well, we'd been walking around a while and we ended up in the back of the store looking at crates (Jasper needs a new one since I gave his old one to Matt and his gf for Snooki). We were standing towards the middle of the large back isle, I had Dixie and Jazz's leashes and they were in down, stays in front of me while Chelsea was standing next to a buggy that we had Todd in (he's still kinda scared when out and public and refuses to walk but we're slowly getting him to come around). Well, we're standing there discussing prices and sizes when this woman just walks up, reaches into the buggy, and starts forcing Todd to let her pet him! :evil: He's trying to back away from her but she keeps reaching at him. I got livid fast! I pulled the buggy back to me and away from her and said "Excuse me! Do NOT just reach at my dog like that! You're terrifying him!" She moved to reach for him again! :shock: :evil: Saying "I am not, dogs love me!" I stepped between her and the buggy, Jazz and Dixie moving with me, and told her she better back off. Chelsea moved to the other side of the buggy and picked Todd up to better keep him away from this woman. I told her if she didn't leave us alone I would call the cops. I held my ground between this woman and Todd, Dixie staring her down, until she finally left. As she walked away, as loud as I could without shouting, I said, "God, the nerve of some people! Idiots like that deserve to be bit! Especially, when forcing themselves on a dog with an abused past!" She shot me the most disgusted look ever after that... :evil: And I'm not gonna lie, I'm shocked Todd didn't bite her! Out of MY 3 he would be the one to do it (as a last resort; but he gets to the last resort faster than any dog I've seen)... We quickly made our way up to the front and reported her to management, and they had her escorted out of the store.

I've really had it with people thinking they can just walk up and start petting my dogs without asking. I know I was raised to ask the owner of ANY animal if I could politely greet their animal. I NEVER would have just walked up and started petting a dog (still wouldn't), and it really irks me that people aren't teaching their kids not to either! But it really irks me more when adults don't ask! Ugh!

Sorry for the rant, I'm just irritated...
Jess
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chowpups
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Re: Wow...

Post by chowpups »

Jess Iam amazed too at adults but kids learn quickly when taught to respect a dogs space..My grandson at 3 yrs old would go up at a baseball game and ask each time he saw this gsd , does your dog like to be " Petted". And the owner would say yes just put your hand out for him to smell you and then they would say to Aiden, go ahead and pet her now. He would see the same dog each time we went to the games and each time he would ask the same question and the same routine, but the owners knew he was a CHILD in Training and they would go along with it..( the dog was so sweet but we never let on to Aiden we just wanted him to learn to always check first).
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Re: Wow...

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The day she gets bitten is the day she will stop petting dogs without asking.
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Re: Wow...

Post by Rory's Dad »

I am among those that believe some people deserve to be bitten, and you can count that rude, incredibly stupid woman among them. Now mind you, i know the downside, but really one of these days i just might bite them myself. Hope Todd got lots of atta boys and treats for behaving when he really would have been excused for not being so good.

I have found some of the box pet stores to be a real challenge for Rory too. All the smells of other dogs doing whatever and wherever really confuses him. Being an intact male, his competitive side gets the better of him, and i actually have to stop him from trying to mark every corner of the store. Makes it really difficult to actually 'shop', as this is the only place he still pulls on the lead. And he pulls pretty hard. Good thing he cant get any traction on the tile floors.

Have also run into some really questionable pepple. We live in a small town, so most people know each other, but on more than one occasion, we have run into the serial petter. One time, my daughter and I had Rory in a behavior class, just for reinforcement, and this guy came over to watch the pups work. He was really creepy, and if it had been a daycare, i would have called the police to investigate him as a child predator. Just really odd and weird, made both my daughter and i get skin bumpy creepy crawly feeling.
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Victory
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Re: Wow...

Post by Victory »

I don't get it either Jess. And I think little dogs who have been abused actually know that they are little dogs and will bite first and ask questions later. The Pekingese we had when I was young had been abused and he would snap or bite if some stranger reached for him without proper introductions being made by my mom or dad, (or me when I got a bit older).

But seriously, I think people who just reach for a dog without asking or considering that the dog may not want to be touched are just plain weird, and when you or I or a person who cares for their dog, get between them and tell the not to touch they get all ticked off. If they really cared about dogs they would know that it's not them we are trying to protect but our dogs who could be put down for biting. Todd is little so he could get away with it, but maybe not if she did get bit and decided to sue.

It's a pain, you try to socialize them, but there are rules and everyone needs to know those rules.
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Rio
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Re: Wow...

Post by Rio »

I agree with the 'wish they would get bitten' theory. Rio is a puppy and people (adults) think it is OK to just shove a hand in his face and expect him to accept it. Most kids we see ask first then I sit Rio down and tell him to say Hello nicely. He usually just gives them a lick and takes the strokes.
It is shocking how some 'dog' people think they can approach any dog without an introduction, they would be the ones screaming from the rooftops if they were nipped or bitten. As a new dog owner I am shocked by lack of etiquette, I would not dream of going up to a stranger and hugging them without getting to know them first, I would probably be arrested for being NUTS!
The best comment I have heard is ' It's OK I owned dogs' Yeah well news flash you DON'T own this one.
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Re: Wow...

Post by Judy Fox »

Good grief! This is so annoying. Well done Jess for dealing with it.

Rio - I loved your remark about the news flash! :lol:

The best retort I gave to somebody a few years ago when she was walking with her child in the park and she kept pulling her child away and say "No, don't go near them you don't know what they've got". It really annoyed me - our girls were clean, they were up to date with the shots and worming etc. and her child was walking along with its nappy hanging down to its knees (obviously full! /:) ), its nose running and eating a bag of crisps so I looked her in the eye and said, "Thank you, please keep her away from my dogs, I don't want them to catch anything!" We then walked on and left her speachless! :lol: Fred raised his eyes to me but he was grinning!
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Re: Wow...

Post by TyChowgirl »

I definitely agree. Most of the time, the kids will ask and most of the time I have to tell them no because of what's going on in the environment at the time. Ty's tail is down and he's looking about wildly, no, now is not a good time for a pet. It's usually the kids in the neighborhood riding bikes, scooters, or skateboards (all of which still freak him out) and they don't understand why he would be scared of these things. Now, amongst my large group of friends I take him to hang out with the well trained kids know to avoid him and give him space because he's uncomfortable. They don't even pay him mind anymore, which he is thankful for, for the amount of people around in such close quarters. However, there are a few we've told half a thousand times...Don't Walk Up and PET Him Without Asking. Do they listen? No. And by the time I notice it's happening, it's too late. However, he sees me watching and will begrudgingly take the pet whilst shrinking back some, but continues to look to me for reassurance. Then the kid(s) run off to do their thing and he gets lots of pets and lovins' because the reality is, it may happen that quickly and I want him to react correctly to it. These are the same people who have a three year old untrained min pin and when I say untrained, I mean she didn't even know how to sit! Needless to say I spent the evening with her and taught her a few things. Also, just a funny thing...Ty LOVES to go to Petsmart here because as soon as we get through the door...I get dragged to the guinea pig cage. It's his favorite television show ;) Other than that he minds pretty well.
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Re: Wow...

Post by Rio »

I have even considered buying one of these for Rio!!! I don't have enough time in 10 lifetimes to train all the people we meet!!!!!!
http://www.bonniedogs.co.uk/dog-clothin ... ests-p1292
http://www.bonniedogs.co.uk/dog-clothin ... ests-p1296

The second one seems more apt.
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Re: Wow...

Post by MissV »

its so amazing how the world is a totally different place over the sea!
you would NEVER get a person forcing themselves onto a pet over here. Most South African's keep well away from everyone's dogs. There is no such thing as just coming up and petting a dog out of no where.
Most of the times if you're having a conversation with someone and your dog is with you, they might briefly let the dog sniff their hand before attempting a pet - but if the dog resists - the matter is left alone and the person does not persist.
Not sure what I would have done in that situation if I was you... i cant even imagine it! LOL!

BUT... having said that, maybe next time maybe dont react in such a guarding manner? Your dogs will pick up on that and associate all people as being a problem - and the next time a person approaches Todd, he may very well lash out because he might think its the correct thing to do?
Just a thought... :>
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Re: Wow...

Post by Victory »

MissV wrote:BUT... having said that, maybe next time maybe dont react in such a guarding manner? Your dogs will pick up on that and associate all people as being a problem - and the next time a person approaches Todd, he may very well lash out because he might think its the correct thing to do?
Just a thought... :>
Jess had pulled Todd in his buggy away from the woman and told her not to touch or try to touch him. The woman persistently tried to touch Todd anyway. Jess had no choice at that point but to stand between Todd and the woman, (which by the way is her job as pack leader, I've done the same) This wasn't about protecting the woman at this point but about protecting Todd, and keeping him from biting. Yes he is a small dog, but with this country's growing intolerence of biting dogs of any size this could have ended with the woman getting bit, sueing and leaving Jess and her family with no choice but to either pay a hefty amount or putting Todd down. This can happen here. And most dogs are smart enough to understand different situations, Jazz and Dixie are well socialized and will understand. Todd has been abused and doesn't need any more trauma, he already doesn't trust people, he needs to be protected from people like this woman.

Firesong was leary of people when I got her, she loved other dogs, but she didn't like strangers reaching for her and grabbing at her, there was a man in the neighborhood who bred and showed Aussie Shepards he had a lovely one, he would reach for Firesong and grab her, I asked him nicely not to do it several times, and finally I had to get more forceful with him about it when he grabbed her head one day and pulled her to him when he was drunk. I gently pulled her back to me, and told him point blank not to touch her again. He was making her worse. It took two more years and some good handling by another neighbor for her to get over that.
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Re: Wow...

Post by Cam Atis »

You know MissV, you might get bashed for your comment. I admire your courage. I got nothing to say about the incident as frankly, no such thing like that is here in my place either.But if it ever happens we tend to be kinder to the admirer.
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Re: Wow...

Post by Rory's Dad »

I cant speak for the manners in South Africa, never had the pleasure of visiting. Perhaps the people there are that much smarter and well mannered, but i can speak for my own neighborhood. As i have said, i am amazed at how much more recognized my chows are as a breed...and equally amazed the those that do recognize them understand the risk involved in walking up behind him and grabbing his mane for an unannounced hello. Rory is the sweetest, most well socialized chow ever, my prior two would have gone straight for the jugular. Rory tolerates these indiscretion, and i find myself having to pull back. Aside from the risk to your personal well-being, keep your damn hands off my dog unless we both give you the OK.

I agree, most times the kids are OK...its the self perceived 'dogs love me' adults that are the worst.
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Re: Wow...

Post by Ursa's daddy »

@Rio, I like those. it is surprising that I have not seen those in the states. @TyChowgirl, guinea pigs are passe. My two like the BIRDS. We only go past them on the way out, because I am afraid they will one day lunge and break the glass. I took my two with me to a friend's house to help repair his shed. His wife has a high pitched voice, and Ursa found that unnerving, so Ursa kept her distance. @Victory, Ursa does NOT like drunks and crack heads. Had your neighbor reached and grabbed her, that would not have gone too well. I do take my two out to petsmart for socializing. Generally that goes well, but I agree that there are some people that need to keep their hands to themselves.
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Re: Wow...

Post by MissV »

@Cam - its amazing how the world is so different! Us 3rd world people tend to be a bit more relaxed with pets etc (I was born in Brazil and the same applies there) - maybe because everyone is used to them being used as a security measure...henceforth, people dont touch other peoples pets.
I have just read Victory's new thread and a lot of it makes sense now. Just need to understand each of us are quite different from the next :>
Pure is the heart of an animal - Evil is the heart of man...
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Re: Wow...

Post by Clovers_Mom »

@ Rory's Dad- agreed.... People decide that they are going to just without notice decide that they are going to pet Clover .. mind you top of head.... I don't think people get it... andmind you yes in a box store... however I do have to give kudo's to the Petsmart near me.... I have brought Clover to thier training and day camp and they are very well educated... I always feel silly having to start the sentence with 'well, you wouldnt believe it but...' .. Had a friend say to me when I told her I brought Clover their .... 'wait?' 'what did you just say?... where are you bringing Clover?'
ha..too bad all customers couldnt be as well educated as thier staff...
While we are on rants though.... So walking around the lake near me and its popular for people to walk, dog walk etc. I do not push the socialization on others for Clover, if dogs want to meet/sniff, but never 'that person' who pushes it... however... I recieved the strangest comment the other day... Clover swayed towards the dog- (its a narrow sidewalk) and the owner says about her older, which seemed owner owned for some time- very abruptly, 'She is not friendly' .... ok- I get thier are certain situations- and then apparently Owner? like pet? .... It was just a bit bizarre to me- the way it was presented ;-) ...
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Re: Wow...

Post by hayleedog »

Tippsysmom, I'm guessing Todd is your pom?

I have a pom too named Murphy, when we go to the local petsmart he too rides in the cart, he feels safer close to me then he would on a leash. The problem with poms are they look so cute and cuddly being small and fluffy but they are the most tempermental of just about any small dog breed. Murphy has been socialized from the time he was 8 weeks old but everyone in my family knows if they aren't mom don't touch him LOL. He has this thing where if I am holding him and someone puts one hand up he will lick it but if you hold both hands up he snaps at them because he doesn't want to be taken from me. He more or less bites "at" people but doesn't really bite them however that could change if he felt really threatened. I have been lucky, most people we run into will ask before they touch, it's funny how people tend to be more afraid of Hannah the chow then hey are of murphy but murphy is the one most likely to bite.

FYI just because you own a dog doesn't mean you're an expert. I own a home, doesn't mean I'm a carpenter =}=
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Re: Wow...

Post by Clovers_Mom »

Haylee Dog-
LOVE the FYI- it s/b on a tee ... Ha....
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Re: Wow...

Post by Thomas »

We were at PetCo three weeks ago and a woman with two children approached us as we were looking at treats. She asked what types of dogs Teddy and Arleigh are. We said Chow and a shepherd retriever mix. She said they have a Black Lab rescue who was taking some time to get get over being abused but they were really working on it. Her little boy asked if he could pet Teddy and I said OK, if he's polite.

After all this conversation I was very surprised when the boy ran at Teddy with both arms outstretched. Teddy reared back and ducked behind Roberta, and I said, WHOA! The mother called the boy back and said, "I was afraid of that. Chows aren't very good with chlldren." I said, "No, they don't like being charged." She said, "No, Chows are too nervous." and she left with her children in tow.

From the conversation we had previously it sounded like they had experience with dogs but what she had just showed me was her children had not been taught how to approach an animal for the first time. I made way too many assumptions because she said they were working with a rescue dog.

You just can never tell who knows what.

But then I'm sure there are those who would say we don't know what we're doing either.
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Re: Wow...

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chowpups wrote:Jess Iam amazed too at adults but kids learn quickly when taught to respect a dogs space..My grandson at 3 yrs old would go up at a baseball game and ask each time he saw this gsd , does your dog like to be " Petted". And the owner would say yes just put your hand out for him to smell you and then they would say to Aiden, go ahead and pet her now. He would see the same dog each time we went to the games and each time he would ask the same question and the same routine, but the owners knew he was a CHILD in Training and they would go along with it..( the dog was so sweet but we never let on to Aiden we just wanted him to learn to always check first).
I love it when kids come up and ASK to pet my guys, because Dixie and Jazz LOVE being pet by people. It just irritates me when they either come running at them, or pet them as they walk by without asking, because for all they or their parents know, my dogs could dislike kids and bite them!... And I'd be held accountable if anything did happen... (Not that I think it ever would, but things happen)
Victory wrote:I don't get it either Jess. And I think little dogs who have been abused actually know that they are little dogs and will bite first and ask questions later. The Pekingese we had when I was young had been abused and he would snap or bite if some stranger reached for him without proper introductions being made by my mom or dad, (or me when I got a bit older).

But seriously, I think people who just reach for a dog without asking or considering that the dog may not want to be touched are just plain weird, and when you or I or a person who cares for their dog, get between them and tell the not to touch they get all ticked off. If they really cared about dogs they would know that it's not them we are trying to protect but our dogs who could be put down for biting. Todd is little so he could get away with it, but maybe not if she did get bit and decided to sue.

It's a pain, you try to socialize them, but there are rules and everyone needs to know those rules.
Thanks Victory. Todd definitely knows he's a little guy (3.8 lbs! :shock: Still gotta get a little more weight on him)... He refuses to be TOO close to Dixie and Jasper. I think he thinks he'll be trampled... And he hates having people stand/crouch over him, which is why I pick him up when people ASK if they can say hi... And I get into this whole thing about holding their hand out for him to sniff and if he doesn't draw back and licks their hand they can scratch him under his chin. And if he pulls back or acts anything but welcoming, I apologize and tell them he's not in the mood to be pet... And it took such a long time to get him to the point of even letting someone have their hand close enough for him to smell it, that it really ticked me off when this woman 1.) Never asked to pet him. 2.)Ignored his fearful reaction. And 3.)Defied me when I told her to leave him alone; that he was afraid. She really got lucky I didn't just knock her on her butt when she started reaching around me again... 'Cause she was defying what I said AND invading my personal space...
Rio wrote:I have even considered buying one of these for Rio!!! I don't have enough time in 10 lifetimes to train all the people we meet!!!!!!
http://www.bonniedogs.co.uk/dog-clothin ... ests-p1292
http://www.bonniedogs.co.uk/dog-clothin ... ests-p1296

The second one seems more apt.
Thanks! I've been thinking about making a bandanna for Todd that says "STOP Do Not Pet", or get something that attaches to his leash.
Victory wrote:
MissV wrote:BUT... having said that, maybe next time maybe dont react in such a guarding manner? Your dogs will pick up on that and associate all people as being a problem - and the next time a person approaches Todd, he may very well lash out because he might think its the correct thing to do?
Just a thought... :>
Jess had pulled Todd in his buggy away from the woman and told her not to touch or try to touch him. The woman persistently tried to touch Todd anyway. Jess had no choice at that point but to stand between Todd and the woman, (which by the way is her job as pack leader, I've done the same) This wasn't about protecting the woman at this point but about protecting Todd, and keeping him from biting. Yes he is a small dog, but with this country's growing intolerence of biting dogs of any size this could have ended with the woman getting bit, sueing and leaving Jess and her family with no choice but to either pay a hefty amount or putting Todd down. This can happen here. And most dogs are smart enough to understand different situations, Jazz and Dixie are well socialized and will understand. Todd has been abused and doesn't need any more trauma, he already doesn't trust people, he needs to be protected from people like this woman.

Firesong was leary of people when I got her, she loved other dogs, but she didn't like strangers reaching for her and grabbing at her, there was a man in the neighborhood who bred and showed Aussie Shepards he had a lovely one, he would reach for Firesong and grab her, I asked him nicely not to do it several times, and finally I had to get more forceful with him about it when he grabbed her head one day and pulled her to him when he was drunk. I gently pulled her back to me, and told him point blank not to touch her again. He was making her worse. It took two more years and some good handling by another neighbor for her to get over that.
Thank you Victory. Dixie and Jazz did understand, neither of them made an aggressive move, but Dixie did give her that GSD stare she's infamous for. Jazz just sat behind me.
hayleedog wrote:Tippsysmom, I'm guessing Todd is your pom?

I have a pom too named Murphy, when we go to the local petsmart he too rides in the cart, he feels safer close to me then he would on a leash. The problem with poms are they look so cute and cuddly being small and fluffy but they are the most tempermental of just about any small dog breed. Murphy has been socialized from the time he was 8 weeks old but everyone in my family knows if they aren't mom don't touch him LOL. He has this thing where if I am holding him and someone puts one hand up he will lick it but if you hold both hands up he snaps at them because he doesn't want to be taken from me. He more or less bites "at" people but doesn't really bite them however that could change if he felt really threatened. I have been lucky, most people we run into will ask before they touch, it's funny how people tend to be more afraid of Hannah the chow then hey are of murphy but murphy is the one most likely to bite.

FYI just because you own a dog doesn't mean you're an expert. I own a home, doesn't mean I'm a carpenter =}=
Todd is my pom. :) He's the 4th I've owned, and the 3rd rescue(I've only had him 2 months and he's over a year old)... Though, the first wasn't abused (just never trained... not even to walk on leash), and the second, well, we didn't know anything about him... He was a stray that showed up on our doorstep... We tried to find his rightful owners, but no one came forward... My third pom; she actually started out as my grandpa's dog (he got her as a puppy), and when we moved in with my grandparents she became my little shadow...
I fully understand the "cuteness" of poms (an SOME other little dogs... I'm not a big fan of little dogs...), but people still need to realize that even a pom bites and can draw blood (my mom's yorkie even split my finger in half)... People are more afraid of Jazz then they are of Todd, when in ALL reality, it should be the other way around... I even get afraid of Todd... He's bit me a few times...



It just sucks that I'm now back at square one with Todd's socialization because of this stupid woman... He's even shying away from the people he KNOWS and lives with... I worked so hard with him to make sure his experiences with the public were good ones and now, we have to start all over again...
Jess
R.I.P. Cinder~1992-1994, Tippsy~9/00-4/11, Jasper~10/08-10/14, Todd~2/11-7/15
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Rory's Dad
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Re: Wow...

Post by Rory's Dad »

Haylee's analogy about being a carpenter is priceless.

I like the bandana idea as well.

I find the box pet store classes hit or miss...the staff is great, but it really depends on the others in the group classes...have run into some very aggressive dogs, and in a closed off environment, it does really work. Rory has never been aggressive, but wont back down either...gives my leash control arm quite a workout really. Fortunately, i am strong enough physically to direct Rory where i want him to go, and have enough verbal control to bring him back, but not always so with the other 'handlers'.
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