My soap box about Pitt Bulls

[TyChowgirl]

So people wonder why I get really iffy about Pitt Bulls where I live now. It's not against the dog or breed, but the people themselves. Because you never know what that person has raised them to be like...well, I had a suspicion a while ago, before this house built a fence around their yard that they were raising their dogs to be mean, and were probably involved in dog fighting. I couldn't prove it, but I knew. It started when I was walking Ty around the block and saw this sack full of something, hanging from a big tree in their yard, in plain sight. They were baiting and encouraging the dog to bite, pull, and tear at it. They stopped when I saw them. Later, I saw two more pittbulls tied out. They were going crazy and I was afraid for a moment, that they might pull lose. That kind of crazy was not excitement...that was attack mode. Ears back, mouths frothing, defensive stance, and growling. There were always different people in and out of that house, and you could tell they had nice stuff... like the huge screen tv that sat in front of the window they kept wide open at all times, like a dare to try and find something sketchy. But I never, ever, heard one dog in that house even though I saw several. And from what I could see (because, I'm nosey I guess) that house didn't look like it was occupied by several pitt bulls that were out of control. It looked clean and spotless. Another red flag. But you don't just accuse people and get involved in things like that in a neighborhood like this. Plus, if I was severly wrong (which I doubted!) those are heavy allegations to accuse someone of. They put up a fence. While most people would assume for the dogs so they could be free and not tied out...I felt it was more for privacy issues. My neighbor, who works with me, and lives upstairs (she is the one who owns Ty's buddy Dexter) told me she was walking Dexter one day and the neighbor who lives in the next duplex over was relieved that they put up the fence. He was terrified of those dogs. Fast forward to today. Ty and I were walking down the street past where our street overlaps again (we live in a sort of c- shaped street area) toward pet valu. I work at a convenience store that's open 24 hours, so I see a lot of the animal control and police officers daily. I recognized two I converse with often standing outside of this place with a large group of people. I silently hoped they busted them, and moved on. Ty was feeling lazy, so we didn't walk to pet valu (it also felt like rain) so we walked back to the spot and started up the street to loop around the block. All the neighbors are out on their porches, gathered. They're watching because the officers are still there. After passing people I didn't think I could talk to, I spoke to the lady who shares the duplex with a friend (the one who has four chows). They filled me in. Apparently a woman was walking down the street and one of their pitts got loose from the yard and took her down. It tore her up from her leg to her side. Blood everywhere and muscle hanging out, witnessed by a little girl who was out playing...who if it had happened to her, she would have died instantly. There are kids all over that street...it could have been one of them, or if I was home earlier, it could have been Ty and I. It's a scary notion. She also told me (after I told her I thought they may have been involved in dog fighting) that they are...that she's seen the neighbors dogs tear each other up. That one of them never got up and they let it lay out there for hours before they dragged it inside. When someone inquired, they were told the dog was "sleeping" downstairs. She says that this wasn't the first time something like this has happened and that's why she doesn't walk that way or that she doesn't walk her dogs often. So that's what it comes down to. There are too many BAD pitt bull owners, and that is why I have my issues. You never know how that person has raised that dog. Because while any dog, especially these dogs, can be a very loving animal...they can easily be turned. Many of them have dog aggression and excitement issues, it takes little to turn that into a killing instinct. And if ever before, that is why we as advocates of our chows who are also on the list of bad breeds to own in the U.S. must do our very best to make sure our dogs or socialized and raised well. Brought up around humans, other dogs of various sizes and personalities, children, cats, etc. to be the majority and not the exception. Because right now..there are too many people with pitt bulls that have made the exception a majority. And it's not fair to the dogs. I don't understand how people can live with themselves, how they sleep at night, knowing they've turned an innocent soul into a ticking time bomb. End soapbox.

[PCC]

But you don't just accuse people and get involved in things like that in a neighborhood like this. Plus, if I was severly wrong (which I doubted!) those are heavy allegations to accuse someone of.

IMO it is better to alert the police, animal control, or whoever, and let them deal with it. You are not required to leave your name, and if the owners are innocent, no harm done. If they are guilty, you will have stopped other dogs from suffering.

[TyChowgirl]

I agree, and I thought about it...but based on what? Things hanging from a tree? That's really all I had. I never saw them tear into each other or anything else. One of those could have passed off as a rope swing...see what I mean?

[cherriemater]

You're right, Steph ... and people today are crazy enough to take a comment made to the police and blow it waaaaay out of proportion or to retaliate because they know you know and now you're their target.

[Ursa's daddy]

And if ever before, that is why we as advocates of our chows, who are also on the list of bad breeds to own in the U.S., must do our very best to make sure our dogs are socialized and raised well. Brought up around humans, other dogs of various sizes and personalities, children, cats, etc. to be the majority and not the exception.

That is the reason why I take my two out to see the world and meet people. I have found chows to be ideal companion animals. I feel that my two should represent to the general public the excellent qualities that this breed has to offer and counter the general perception that chows are dangerous.

[PCC]

I agree, and I thought about it...but based on what? Things hanging from a tree? That's really all I had. I never saw them tear into each other or anything else. One of those could have passed off as a rope swing...see what I mean?

But you said you saw them baiting the dogs to bite into it, yes? Plus all the other circumstantial evidence.

[Cocoa]

That is the reason why I take my two out to see the world and meet people. I have found chows to be ideal companion animals. I feel that my two should represent to the general public the excellent qualities that this breed has to offer and counter the general perception that chows are dangerous.

I couldn't agree more and I do the same with Cocoa..

[TyChowgirl]

Ursa and Cocoa- me too. I was that way from day one with Tiberius especially with how scared he was of everything. It's done wonders.
PCC- It seems like you are saying I could have prevented the situation and that part of it is my fault. No, I doubt that if the neighbors who live right across from them and next to them calling in complaints over the years and small check up investigations where what I can see from the other side of the street was in plain sight, didn't get the dogs taken from them then what I saw that day with the possible baiting with two teenagers would've done that. Especially considering the moment they noticed I was looking they stopped which was over a matter of a minute. I'm still looking to hear what became of it, because I only caught the tail end of it on the news last night when I changed the channel over to the local one which ended with "the dog is quarintined to the owner's home", which is the only thing I got out of that report. So even still, the guilty dog wasn't taken away. I didn't see any of the officers at work today (plus today was hellish) so I didn't even have time to inquire to the ones that did come in. Did I mention one of those same teenagers mentioned to his brother once while I was walking Ty that he wanted a dog like him or my dog or something because he would make a good fighting dog? I honestly don't think they do anything major there if they are involved. It's too tiny of a neighborhood and most people don't seem to like them...as well as like I said, their house looked way too spotless...they probably take them elsewhere if that's the case. I'm still angry and kind of shocked about the whole thing at the same time. While they are the second most popular dog in my city...they also recently had banned the adoption of them and then reversed the ruling where apparently now the owners sign some sort of contract that puts them in full fault if the dog attacks someone. I don't remember what all was involved in that, because I just read about some of it last night when I was looking for an article or something related, so don't quote me on it.

[Victory]

It is a proven fact that 90% of people involved in dog fighting which is illegel in most states are also involved with drug dealing. Don't tell the police that you suspect dog fighting, tell them that you suspect drug dealing. Organize the neighborhood, just talk to people that you know are decent and hard working, one neighbor will lead to another and then another and pretty soon you'll have 10-12 families ready and willing to help and the police will be on your side, as long as you work with them and listen when they suggest things and not go all vigilante, (they don't like that) No one wants someone viciously attacked, or killed by a dog, but the anti dog fighting laws are often so lenient and DA don't want to waste time pursuing them that you have to go with the stronger issues, drug dealing etc. You could also take the police guy you know out for coffee and ask him about how dog fighting charges are handled. You can bet this house is now on their radar but if everyone let's things go back to the status quo nothing will be done.

I lived in a neighborhood that was known for dog raised for fighting, (although they took them elsewhere to fight) and drugs and prostitution. It was the owners of the chows, GSDs, Rotties etc who ran the drug dealers out, we'd simply walk by with our dogs all times of day or night and interrupt their business. For a while it was a wonderful neighborhood, then all the apartments were bought up by landlords who don't allow dogs and it's becomming a pit again, I'm glad I had to move.

[Cam Atis]

I have reservations to Pitbulls and Rottweilers. But then I chose a Chowchow as my pet. But at least, Chows are not in the top two slots of dog bites that results in fatality. Not even in top 5. Thus I joined here to see how chows fare.

You know, looks like your neigbors have a soundproof hide away for their fighting dogs. And yea you are correct that hanging sack represents a target for the dog. It could be humans. That's why I cringed when I hear "naive" people say about their pits or rotts "There's not one mean bone him. He's gentle and wouldn't hurt a fly" THEY SHOULD ADD, he's quite exceptional for his breed as his breed is like these (which are facts)
Even if it is Cesar Milan who's saying that line.

[Victory]

A gentle pit bull is NOT an exception to his breed, he is a credit to his owner and training. A town here in the US has just passed a law that will mean many pit bulls that are just family pets will be put to sleep because no one will rent to people who own them, because the new law states that even the landlord of a person who owns a pit that attacks someone is now liable if the pit attacks.

Yesterday a little girl in California was attacked by the family pit bull. A lot of people came the news page and made comments. Most of the comments were about pit bulls being unpredictable, dangerous etc. One person even compared pit bulls to the white tiger that attacked Roy of Seigfreid and Roy. Not only was this person an idiot for comparing two species that have almost nothing in common, (spines, mamals, fur and teeth...almost the same as humans) but the tiger didn't attack Roy, he thought he was protecting him.

Dogs attack because they are not proberly trained and cared for. These pits are being trained to fight, they are tied up almost constantly, which has been proven by animal behavorists and trainers to cause a heightened state of agitation so that if the animal, (and this is any dog) gets lose it attacks the first thing it comes in contact with and goes nuts. This has been proven scientifically over and over again. People who raise pits for fighting keep them confined and this is why they lose it when they get lose. Also it is important for every dog owner to teach their dog that EVERY human they come into contact with out ranks the dog. People constantly think that if the dog obeys me, it will automatically obey my wife and kids...not so. The dog may thiink itself as beta to the owner and everyone else in the family as lower ranking. So when a child in the family tries to give the dog and order or does something to the dog, the dog does what it would do to any subordinate and if this is a child, the child loses. It is about proper training and proper socialization and constant monitoring. In the US the chow may not be one of the top five dogs on the CDC's bite list, but they are still in the top 10, and if they were more common there would be more trouble finding places to live with them. As some one who rents I can veriy that my chows make it hard to find a place to live, or get insurance for my apartment.

[TyChowgirl]

Victory-not a bad suggestion about the cop thing. Let me try and explain the neighborhood I live in. This loop is made up of the several condos owned by the people who own mine, welfare housing apartments, and duplexes. The one side of the loop is the duplexes, the other is welfare housing and the beginning of the condos I live in, in fact, I live across from the welfare housing, through no choice of my own. There are a lot of people, probably a lot of drugs, prostitution, etc. It's gotten better over the years or so I've heard, I've only been down here for two years now. So I don't know many people in my neighborhood. The ones I know, I work with and they live in random condos. The only one I really talk to on occassion over by the duplexes (which is where this occurred, and I think both sides are involved) is the lady with the chows...who keeps to herself and doesn't take her dogs out, they're older like 11 and she has a fenced in back yard. The people I ended up talking to that day was her neighbor, the lady on the other side. They don't really seem to like each other, but whatever right? What do I know? I just live in a condo around the block. The police are through the neighborhood daily and every other day there's an incident at the welfare housing apartments... so yea, it's hard to single out people when it's everywhere. But I will be picking Mr.Cop's brain about the dog issues as soon as I see him next.

Also, I've met a lot of really awesome pitts, and most like almost all rotties, are a tub of love. I read an article recently that says, no pitts aren't as likely to attack as some dogs...it's just when they do the likelihood of it being fatal is much greater because of the power in their jaws. Will I ever own one?No. Why? Just not my type of dog. The same reason I won't ever own a tiny dog. Just not my type.

[Cam Atis]

What you did was just the right thing to do if you'll ask me. You did not have concrete evidence to prove your point. Cherimater had to go through that kind of incorrect reporting and has to suffer when the officers came knocking at her door just to check if the dogs are indeed abused and neglected. Wasnt true though.

[Cam Atis]

Isn't the neck of Roy been punctured and some veins torn as a result of the tiger's teeth clenched in his neck? How then can the tiger (by nature) gently grab their cubs by the scruff (of neck) without tearing the neck of the cubs. Animals know how to nibble, lick or grab gently. And they know when they mean business, ie, bite or go for the neck then drag the thing like a rag doll.

I also happen to know 2 well socialized pitbulls but it hasnt converted me, cos the rest I know aren't .
What with a lot of incidence? It says a lot about the natural temperament that is innate in that dog breed. You have to see a golden retriever go for the jugular but that behavior has been bred out, are rare in that dog breed.

[Cam Atis]

And you know, I am surprised to know Dalmatian is 10th most dangerous dog breed. LOL. I could only dream of my dals in a serious attack mode like that of GSDs but no, not one of them. And I had 10 which I retained and some are placed in various places owned by my family and relatives. Thats why I said to myself, maybe chows aren't that mean as they were supppose to do. So you see, we all agree that pits and rotts have some goood well socialised individuals bu the high incidence of these dogs attacking or killing a passerby is something we cannot ignore. Of course humans play a major part. In fact it is so major that they came up with recent aggressive breeds such as pit bull, dogo argentino and dobermanns. Designed to protect its owners. Kill if necessary.

[Victory]

Isn't the neck of Roy been punctured and some veins torn as a result of the tiger's teeth clenched in his neck? How then can the tiger (by nature) gently grab their cubs by the scruff (of neck) without tearing the neck of the cubs. Animals know how to nibble, lick or grab gently. And they know when they mean business, ie, bite or go for the neck then drag the thing like a rag doll.

I also happen to know 2 well socialized pitbulls but it hasnt converted me, cos the rest I know aren't .
What with a lot of incidence? It says a lot about the natural temperament that is innate in that dog breed. You have to see a golden retriever go for the jugular but that behavior has been bred out, are rare in that dog breed.

As his partner and as it was proven, the tiger, a male did indeed grab Roy to drag him away, however, the skin and fur on a tiger cubs neck is much tougher than the skin (and lack of fur) on a human's neck. As Seigfried explained, if the tiger had been trying to kill he would have taken the entire neck into his mouth and then shaken Roy, then dragged his dead body away. People assume that all animals are the same and that what is gentle and soft to us, is gentle and soft to them. The tiger was trying to be gentle, it was a case of not knowing his own strength. He first grabbed Roy's arm when Roy stepped between the tiger and idiot woman in the audience that was trying to get the tiger to come to her so she could pet it. Roy told the tiger to release and he did, even though the tiger was excited by the woman's behavior. When the tiger released Roy, Roy fell, and the tiger then, while confused and upset, tried to protect Roy.

[Victory]

What you did was just the right thing to do if you'll ask me. You did not have concrete evidence to prove your point. Cherimater had to go through that kind of incorrect reporting and has to suffer when the officers came knocking at her door just to check if the dogs are indeed abused and neglected. Wasnt true though.

For the time being she did the right thing, but I hope that she works with her neighbors to form a neighborhood watch group that will work with the police to clear out the drug dealers, prostitutes etc. This is the ONLY way to save a neighborhood in the US any more. You have to watch, you have to work with your neighbors and you have to let the police and DA's etc know that the tax paying citizens in their districts are watching them too, that they demand that their neighborhoods be safe for law abiding citizens.

It is unforunate but in the US this is no longer guaranteed, people have to stand up and demand it. Also there is a very big difference between living in a large or even medium sized city like some of us do and a small town like Cherimater does. The police and other law enforcement have completely different mind sets. In most cities the cops could care less about possible animal abuse, there usually is an entire other office for that, "animal control and care, or sometimes only the ASPCA or something like that. That's why in the big cities it's easier to get these idiots locked up for drugs and other human involved illegal activities.

[Victory]

And you know, I am surprised to know Dalmatian is 10th most dangerous dog breed. LOL. I could only dream of my dals in a serious attack mode like that of GSDs but no, not one of them. And I had 10 which I retained and some are placed in various places owned by my family and relatives. Thats why I said to myself, maybe chows aren't that mean as they were supppose to do. So you see, we all agree that pits and rotts have some goood well socialised individuals bu the high incidence of these dogs attacking or killing a passerby is something we cannot ignore. Of course humans play a major part. In fact it is so major that they came up with recent aggressive breeds such as pit bull, dogo argentino and dobermanns. Designed to protect its owners. Kill if necessary.

See, I already new about Dalmatians and have seen their over aggressive behavior for myself. In my old neighborhood there were a couple at one time that would try and go after anyone, dog or person. Here in the US they were overly inbred for a while, the movies 101 dalmatians made them popular and puppy mills bred them, without regard to temperment, health etc. The results were dogs that had issues. Doberman's on the other hand have been rebred from their origianal purpose as guard dogs to the most idiotic animals on the planet. One of them won at big dog show a few years ago, she was narcoleptic, only in the ring would she even be bothered to stay awake! She just slept all the time other than that, How can a dog like that protect anyone? I also had a roommate with two; the female was okay, the male was stupid, he tried to be aggressive but all he did was bark, if you left the room he was in and came back into it, he'd bark aggressively, all you had to do to stop the behavior was look directly at him and yell back, once, after that you could have killed anyone in the house, stolen everything and he wouldn't move. There might be a few dobbies out there that still make good guard dogs, but for the most part they have been replaced by Rotties, because Rotties are smarter and more trainable now. The pit bull isn't a new or recent breed, the two breeds that are usally called pit bulls have been around for a while, the AKC accepted them in 1936.

[Tippsy'smom]

As someone with a pitbull mix in the household, it IS all about how they're raised and trained. Snooki (my brother's pit/rottie mix) is the sweetest dog. She hasn't EVER shown a lick of aggression, towards people or animals. And I've known plenty of pits who are fantastic dogs! Saying "it's in the breed" is so idiotic! People say the same stupid thing about chows all the time and it makes me wanna punch them in the face! And too many people don't even know a true pitbull when they see one! A friend of mine from school was talking to me the other day and told me how someone asked her if her Shar-pei was a pit!? Talk about stupid people. Shoot! I get it all the time! People walk up to me and the dogs when we're out and always wanna pet Dixie and Todd, but are always eyeing Jazz and say "I don't trust chows." Jasper isn't even a purebred chow! He's part lab! And if they took a minute to ask me what Dixie is, I'd flat out tell them "an Aussie mix; we assume with chow and GSD in her" but they don't...

I will forever stand by pitbulls. They're misunderstood and mistreated. They use to he called "nanny dogs" for a reason. But too many idiots are training and raising them the wrong way and also overbreeding them, not caring about temperament or health. Snooki even gets the "oh, it's a pitbull" crap, and she's a 4 month old PUPPY! I can understand being fearful of dogs that you suspect are being taught to be aggressive, but give the benefit of the doubt. I always ask if a pit is friendly when we meet them when we're out, but ya know what? The pits we've met have been WAY more friendly than labs and goldens we've met! And the CDC's bite list is a load of crap. Chihuahuas, poms, and yorkies (all three of which, I live with and am telling you from experience) bite more than pits, chows, rotties, GSDs, etc. They just don't make the press because they're not lethal. Yes, I've had a fair share of run ins with pits that were not so friendly, but the good has always outweighed the bad. Shoot, the mini poodle I had years ago, his best friend was our neighbors pitbull!

[TyChowgirl]

Jess, I agree completely. There was this survey with pictures that had a bunch of dogs mistaken for pitt bulls all the time, some were obvious for me, but others...I knew to be the original stock of a pitt because Pitt bulls are a mix of different bully dogs. At least, that's my understanding. This area though, it's easy to assume that some of these dogs weren't raised right just how you see their owners treat them in public or how they react to seeing another dog. The ones I trust and thoroughly enjoy the company of are the ones that come to the dog park. No one there will tolerate a violent dog. All the pitt or pitt mixes are very sweet dogs who may occassionally play a little rough, but aren't aggressive. Definitely smart to ask about how friendly it is though! I've been searching high and low for something more on this case...and I've come up short. Plus, still haven't even seen the animal control officer at work..

[Tippsy'smom]

I agree with you on judging by how the owner treats the dog. My favorite quote of all time is : "You can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Not only do the people are are abusive to animals make me angry, but the one's who let their dogs walk all of them... Those are just as bad.

Hope you're able to catch up with the ACO soon!

[Cocoa]

I completely agree with Jess. There are a lot of dog breeds that are known to be good guard dogs and it seems that at different times the ill bred people have chosen one of these as their dog of choice. Right now it is the pit bulls and Staffies but looking back before that it was Rotties, Doberman, German Shepherds, Mastiffs and even our beloved Chows. During the times that the morons were picking each of these breeds as their guard dogs there was a lot of backyard/puppy mill breeding of the dogs which turned out poor specimens. Add this to the fact that these people are unwilling and/or unable to properly train a dog and you have a recipe for disaster. Often the dogs are left out in the back yard all the time (great way to guard your house from a burglar, they'll just go in the front door) and never socialized. A poorly trained dog is a nuisance whether it is a 6 pound Yorkie or a 120+ pound Mastiff. I recently read that the #1 dog for dog bites is a Dachshund, with chihuahua and Jack Russell terrier 2nd and 3rd.
A pit bull wouldn't be my choice of dog but that's just a personal preference and nothing to do with the reputation.

[Clovers_Mom]

Hi All
These stories make me so mad... furious... Ugh...
A dog has instincts, as it should, it is a dog- however, being a dog owner it is our responsibility in making sure that the dog behaves in a respective manner .. For this waste of a carbon footprint people, they deserve... well... it probaly would not be PC for me to continue...
as for the bad dog list- yes, our beloved chow is on it... my homeowners insurance told me since i was an existing customer.... but if anything was to ever happen.. i am automatically dropped... I find such issue with the bad behavior of humans which reflects on the dog breeds.
This Pitbull story was in our News yesterday. Since Chows are 'classified' as an 'aggressive' breed as well, I really like to share these story... since they are never heard about as much as all of the bad stories...
As for your specific situation, it could hurt to mention what you saw to animal control, they can keep an eye on it, and make the deciding factor...
As for my 'aggressive chow' Clover (not) she is playing with and licking her beloved stuffed pink monkey...

http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/181786 ... rains-path

Have a good night!

[Cam Atis]

Saying it is idiotic for anyone to assume it is in the breed is to me idiotic kind of thinking in itself. Why else do we in the medical field study genetics and temperaments being passed into offsprings if all is needed is upbringing? So no worries about whether they are breeding (puppy mills backyard breeders etc) aggressive or shy puppies if all it takes is the owner?
And we are talking about here is a particular situation where the pitbull is aggressive - in fact it has attacked a person already. So we cant apply here the reasoning that pits are sweetest. OF COURSE! It is assumed that the dog owner plays an important role in the molding their dog. But pitbulls are really different when they get angry or agitated or any (ANY) large breed of dogs bred (i say bred, not trained) for unswerving determination to do its job. Poms , which you have (Todd), are small dog breeds, so even if they are aggressive (like the Westies) who do they kill? rats? THESE ARE BIG DOGS with muscular jaws so it is idiotic to be always blaming the "idiotic man or idiotic lady" when certain circumstances warrants a little more broadness of understanding. Or that studies conducted on dog fatalities are "crap". It is not crap. Persons died as a result, you may say it is minuscule or small scale, but fact is, someone died due to dog bites.
This is already digressing but I want to tell you to consider carefully before labeling someone as idiotic.

[TyChowgirl]

Yikes ANYWAY. The only thing I will add to that is it's a little bit of both, but I think that a poorly bred dog can be salvaged if raised properly though there's always going to be that risk. If any of you have heard of the study they did on silver foxes, some of it is genetics. But there's also the study of the domestic dog versus the wolf. Nova (PBS) did a huge thing about dogs. Dogs Decoded is their special and if you have netflix, you should be able to watch it. I highly recommend it. It's really fascinating.
Update on the situation via my neighbor from the one who lived next door to them. She didn't get details from the couple, but they said that they have till the end of the week to move out and it's my understanding the dogs were taken. Don't know where, to what end, etc. Just that they won't be around anymore which apparently has most of the neighborhood relieved.