My soap box about Pitt Bulls

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Tippsy'smom
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Tippsy'smom »

Cam Atis wrote:Saying it is idiotic for anyone to assume it is in the breed is to me idiotic kind of thinking in itself. Why else do we in the medical field study genetics and temperaments being passed into offsprings if all is needed is upbringing? So no worries about whether they are breeding (puppy mills backyard breeders etc) aggressive or shy puppies if all it takes is the owner? :(
And we are talking about here is a particular situation where the pitbull is aggressive - in fact it has attacked a person already. So we cant apply here the reasoning that pits are sweetest. OF COURSE! It is assumed that the dog owner plays an important role in the molding their dog. But pitbulls are really different when they get angry or agitated or any (ANY) large breed of dogs bred (i say bred, not trained) for unswerving determination to do its job. Poms , which you have (Todd), are small dog breeds, so even if they are aggressive (like the Westies) who do they kill? rats? THESE ARE BIG DOGS with muscular jaws so it is idiotic to be always blaming the "idiotic man or idiotic lady" when certain circumstances warrants a little more broadness of understanding. Or that studies conducted on dog fatalities are "crap". It is not crap. Persons died as a result, you may say it is minuscule or small scale, but fact is, someone died due to dog bites.
This is already digressing but I want to tell you to consider carefully before labeling someone as idiotic.
It is NOT the BREED! It can be breeding, brought down to an individual (of ANY breed) through parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. However, it will NEVER be the BREED as a whole! And considering, I just got bit by Todd, a bite from ANY breed is still a BITE. Weather the media wants to say so or not.
Jess
R.I.P. Cinder~1992-1994, Tippsy~9/00-4/11, Jasper~10/08-10/14, Todd~2/11-7/15
Dixie: mix Rebel: mix
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Cocoa
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Cocoa »

Tippsy'smom wrote:
It is NOT the BREED! It can be breeding, brought down to an individual (of ANY breed) through parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.
That was exactly the point I was making. When one of these breeds becomes popular as guard dogs/fighting dogs etc. puppy mills and backyard breeders start churning out puppies from poor breeding stock and they tend to breed for the undesirable traits such as aggression. Take this and combine with a lack of proper training and socialization and it is a recipe for disaster.
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Tippsy'smom
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Tippsy'smom »

Cocoa wrote:
Tippsy'smom wrote:
It is NOT the BREED! It can be breeding, brought down to an individual (of ANY breed) through parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.
That was exactly the point I was making. When one of these breeds becomes popular as guard dogs/fighting dogs etc. puppy mills and backyard breeders start churning out puppies from poor breeding stock and they tend to breed for the undesirable traits such as aggression. Take this and combine with a lack of proper training and socialization and it is a recipe for disaster.
Exactly. My chow girl, Tippsy, was from a BYB (at least I'm pretty sure she was... And I have an awful feeling she was from the one where all those chows were rescued last year in Meriweather county last year...)... She was very timid, I was always afraid she would become a fear biter, but thank God she never did and that was thanks to the way I raised her and trained her. Shoot, Jasper has had aggression issues. He's literally lunged up at me (over food) and I was forced to kick him in the chest to keep him back... But we've worked on it, and now, I can take ANYTHING from him. Anyone else would have decided he was too risky and had him put to sleep... Now, I'm working on his confidence and teaching him how to better handle being alone... He's growled at my brother and his gf... Of course, he was alone in his kennel in the basement without me or Dixie... (Not that that's an excuse) But he always judges his reaction to things/people off mine and Dixie's reactions... But I'm obviously not one of those people that's gonna say "oh, it's because he's part chow..."
Jess
R.I.P. Cinder~1992-1994, Tippsy~9/00-4/11, Jasper~10/08-10/14, Todd~2/11-7/15
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Cam Atis
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

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For starters, why do we have dogs called Retrievers and we have Scent hounds? (Sure all dogs can follow a scent for a few meters but NOT with the dedication of a scent hound) ITS BECAUSE it is INNATE IN THAT breed. Throw a ball to a retriever puppy and he goes pick it up. It is easier to train play fetch than most of Chowchows. Can you teach your chow in a few sessions to clamp on a thick lead/leash to keep a fellow rowdy dOg from running ? A pitbull can do that for 15minutes or more without batting an eyelash.
And what have you got? Mixed breeds? You cant even be sure where your purebred chow came from. Judging from that background, you dont have a lot of experience when it comes to dogs with pedigree. I owned both (mixed and pedigreed). Pedigree dogs are predictable in character while mutts are not. And that's a fact. Not because its owner made it so.
What's my point? Here's my point: it is easier to train a pitbull to become aggressive and be used in dog fighting than another breed say Afghan hound. We are not talking here about an individual dog but a breed as a whole.

You kids better educate yourselves first before saying anything that borders to...
And i dont just watch media, I READ.
And also try to learn the art of communicating in A respectful way. What you believe is up to you. But dont use languages or words that is not proper in this kind of forum especially if you are referring to another person in this forum. I could have used expletives on you but I didnt coz I know my manners.

BTW, applying what you know based on the behaviour of your mutts is grossly irresponsible.
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Tippsy'smom
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

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My chow was bought by my cousin. I was 9. Of course I don't know where she bought her from. I have been here way longer than you, and obviously, I'm not the only person who feels the way I do about pitbulls. YOU are NOT in the US. YOU don't know ME. I have done my research on MANY MANY dog breeds since I was very young! And my bringing up of my chow/lab mix's behavior stems back to INDIVIDUALS of bad breedings having issues! And for your information, my very first dog was a pedigree chow who had aggression issues! Pedigree dogs can STILL have plenty of issues!
Jess
R.I.P. Cinder~1992-1994, Tippsy~9/00-4/11, Jasper~10/08-10/14, Todd~2/11-7/15
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Ursa's daddy
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Ursa's daddy »

Hi folks, let's chill a bit. I did see the Nova show on dogs and on the Soviet/Russian study of the breeding of foxes. Those were very interesting shows. There have been a number of shows on dogs and their genetics. Bottom line is that humans and dogs have been together for longer than recorded history, and people have selected various traits and through selective breeding, have enhanced these traits in several selective breeds. All dogs can bite. Big dogs bite harder than small dogs and therefore cause greater injury. All dogs can be taught be be aggressive. Some are more aggressive than others. I have a rat terrier that will go after the Yorkie and likes to be aggressive towards Malachi. It is funny in a way because he will raise up his head and there is not much Maggie can do to him. She has learned to not mess with Ursa, because Ursa will give a warning bite, but a warning bite from a chow can be serious to a rat terrier. Years ago I shared a house with a guy that had a pit bull. She was a big baby. She actually got along quite well with my cat. Pedigree dogs are somewhat predictable within a range of behavior. At least this is the case in the USA. This is because many breeders chose to breed based upon appearance only. In this country, pit bulls are a mixed bag. They range from very friendly and social dogs to aggressive and unpredictable dogs. The only papers the owners of dogs used for fighting are interested in is money. As Victory noted, these are the same people engaged in drug dealing and other criminal activities. I have had the opportunity to reside in a neighborhood where drug dealing was common, prostitutes walked the street, and random gunfire was frequently heard. While I can't speak of the rest of the world, there are some people and places in this country that are not nice. The police can do some things to address the problem, but resources are limited. Of course, the squeaky wheel does get the grease.
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Cam Atis
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Cam Atis »

Thanks Ursa's dad for a VERY WELL INFORMED comment regarding dog breeds.

As for you Jess, does it make a difference if you are here first and I'm not? We are talking about pitbull and not chows. Does it matter if you live in the US? And if i live half way across the globe?
MOST dog breeds are globally available and knowledge on them is also globally available.
Sure you are not alone in how you think about pitbulls and I am also obviously not alone in mine. In fact I have a whole lot to say there are really particular temperaments bred into the breed in order for it to do its job effectively.
Examples are rat terriers, water dogs designed for water rescue, bird dogs such as retrievers bred to retrieve and there's the pitbull bred to bait bull. There's the Rhodesian ridgeback bred to keep lions at bay. These are working dogs bred for a specific job. And you dare say it is so idiotic to say it is innate in the breed?
If you are talking about your mixed breed then I agree! Its never in that mixed breed. But since we are talking about a purebreed, so my belief is.
You did research since you are a kid? I guess you read just the basic and have not raised any purebreed aside from your apparently pedigreed first dog. And now a pom.
FYI: I have taken care of a pitbull dam 2 years of age and she stayed with me for a year until her owner came back. Yes she is just like any other dog and didnt have aggression issues wih me. This is a pedigreed pitbull. A fighting line as a matter of fact. So please dont use your snootiness on me.
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Cam Atis
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

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I know where Victory and Ursa stands when they say dark personas engaged in drug dealings and prostitution. These people are violent and I fortunAtely does not have them for my neighbors. Being a vigilant citizen is a must so maybe to some of you, Tychowgirl lacked the initiative but I can feel her apprehension because she didnt saw anything other than a hanging sack from a tree. all she had was suspicion coupled with a weird feeling something is wrong with that spotless house having pitbulls. You can't cry wolf all the time. So a more circumspect approach is better.
The run away pitbull who attacked a passerby beat her to it. Anyhow it is a dangerous neighborhood if you got persons who intentionally makes their pitbull aggressive. I had a book of pitbulls and a hanging sack is one of their exercises as well as pulling a vehicle to strengten their muscles. Thus I also feel iffy with pitbulls as a whole. But I am not biased to the breed. I intended to own one as my friend owed me a pup which never got to be born as Dharma cant get impregnated even though I cared for her 1 year.That was years ago.
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Victory »

Cam Atis wrote:But pitbulls are really different when they get angry or agitated or any (ANY) large breed of dogs bred (i say bred, not trained) for unswerving determination to do its job. Poms , which you have (Todd), are small dog breeds, so even if they are aggressive (like the Westies) who do they kill? rats? THESE ARE BIG DOGS with muscular jaws so it is idiotic to be always blaming the "idiotic man or idiotic lady" when certain circumstances warrants a little more broadness of understanding. Or that studies conducted on dog fatalities are "crap". It is not crap. Persons died as a result, you may say it is minuscule or small scale, but fact is, someone died due to dog bites.
This is already digressing but I want to tell you to consider carefully before labeling someone as idiotic.
First there are documented cases here by the CDC where small dogs have killed human childern, one I remember very clearly is a chihuahua that killed a week old infant, it did it by the simple method of tearing out the babies throat. Also anyone who compares a dog of any breed to the world's largest wild feline is an idiot. Frankly I am tired of being "understanding" to humans who will not use logic and reason and simply make statments like, "all pit bulls are unpredictable and dangerous and should be outlawed." They don't seem to get it that any dog can and have been raised to be vicious and aggressive. There are vicous labs, there are vicious collies, any breed of dog that has any tendency to be thinking and indepedent can be and have been used to guard and can become dangerous. In San Francisco they used to use Malumutes, Samoyeds, GSD, Rotties and Doberman's to night guard stores, these dogs were nearly wild, they were kept in cages, and only allowed freedom in the stores at night, in the morning they were lured back into their cages with food. Both Malumutes and Samoyeds are normally gentle friendly family dogs, but these were allowed to pack with only other dogs and didn't see humans as anything but a source of food and as the enemy. Everyone in the city knew if you broke into one of these stores at night, you wouldn't be walking out. Also in California a man trained his golden retriver mix to kill then turned it on his wife. The dog had to bve put down because the man wouldn't give up the command he used and the dog could never be considered safe.

Add the huge amounts of animals that come from puppy mills in this country, of dogs that are bred only for money without any regard to their health, intelligence or personality and you can get many dog breeds that dont behave anything like they should. These dogs aren't being bred by any one with any understanding of basic genetics, just an understanding that every puppy means a certain amount of money. And a lot if not most of these animals are registered with the AKC, they are pur breds on paper and in actuallity. They are unsocialized, often neglected and abused, coming rom females that do nothing but breed and breed and breed. The studs aren't examined for soundness or personality either, but they have their papers and thats all that matters. Some of these people even have websites and people buy from them. To say it is only one breed or even ten different breeds is to invite criminals to start using other breeds for the same purposes. And that is why we are SO adament that it people who do these things not any particular dog breed.
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

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I FINALLY saw the officer involved today and picked his brain about everything at work before I got on the clock. He was willing to give me whatever info I wanted it seemed as I asked him about it and he's like " What would you like to know? " lol. Anyways, the woman is fine. Had over a hundred stitches, but he said she was being melodramatic at the time, thinking that they were going to have to amputate her leg (he's seen much worse). The dog has been taken to AC where it's quarantined. Apparently, I was right. I told him all that I saw and he shared with me stories from the neighbors including a bite incident that happened inside the house that was never reported. They won't be able to get the dog back, but they have a number of steps they have to go through to get the dog euthanized as they don't think it's got a chance of recovering from it's aggression issues. He explained the number of hoops one has to jump through to even get something investigated. And I said, wow, they don't make it easy on you guys do they? He said with a chuckle "And that's just dogs." So by the sounds of things, an actual incident would have had to occur. He said they also have a female pitt that's as sweet as could be. If that incident the neighbors spoke of would be reported then they may have had to give up the other dog too. But he said they had run ins with them before and that they were hounding them to register those dogs (not as dangerous or anything, just register with the county) because they had gotten loose before. So they were definitely on their radar beforehand.
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Cam Atis »

Steph, sadly it is really hard for the police to implement euthanasia to a vicious dog in US, To make things work faster for the police force, they have banned pitbulls altogether to the detriment of the breed owners who are responsible enough to raise them well socialized. Well, just register your pit into a staffordshire and you are off the hook. Dog politics. AKC vs. UKC.

Victory I agree with you to think it is dumb to compare a tiger (of Roy and Siegfreid) to a dog. I read their account and have watched that horrid moment. And a chihuahua killing a week old babe is the parents being sooo into "oh she's the sweetest dog " thinking and they let the dog go near the babe. Irresponsible. Let's not forget they are classed as a carnivore. You'll see a correlation in the size of a dog to the size of prey or victim. A JRT can kill a two year old. Whereas a rott could kill a full grown man.

Yes to make a dog vicious. Tie it or caged it during the day, let them out at night. You'll turn an otherwise sweet pup into a hostile guard dog. But it still depend on the temperament of the dog (mutts)
Now , Princess the Golden Lab mix (as compared to mutts whose ancestry are not clear) has been given such a treatment by my in laws since it is puppy, and all she managed to learn is to bark. She also growled to me a little but really it is a sissy growl. Now it is because she came from pure Golden Ret and pure Lab Ret. so I know it is a little wishful thinking to turn a rerriever into an effective guard dog that can be used to guard a store in your place. But Rotts and staff or GSD are up to the job ad they get hired for it. It is in the breed of these dogs to be reliable on the job they were called for just by sheer muscle. All my dalmatians are you may call them sweet, yet Hera who have been caged all her life by my in laws. But she was docile when I got her again but she did attack someone during my watch (2nd attack of her) I didnt fault her because it is her job to protect home. And I saw that her attack was more bravado, yet it scared me and had me running outside the yard. So you see, upbringing can only do so much but you can't bred it out as it is innate guarding instinct of the dalmatian. Cookie has also did to my employee a half hearted bite on the thigh when she had just whelped. These are all my observation and I dont ask anyone to tell me otherwise as in the same way we just comment , let's comment in a respectfu way.
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Cocoa
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Cocoa »

Interesting article in the local paper this morning about people who own "dangerous breeds:
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/link+b ... story.html
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Clovers_Mom »

Hi
Great article... Have to say I was a bit weary about opening the new post, all things considered from the previous posts.... glad that I did though!!!...
ha.. 'owners pick breeds that most resembles themselves' .....

...'Highly intelligent and values their independence...Stubborn, however their dignity and aloofness must never be confused with a fierce or intractable temperament. Minds thier own business and does not generally initiate trouble.
The Chow's appearance and personality suggest the nobility of a lion, the drollness of a panda, the appeal of a teddy bear, the grace and independence of a cat, and the loyalty and devotion of the dog.
The Chow has a little of all these qualities in his appearance and in his behavior. It is, however, his particular intelligence and devotion, his independence and dignity which make him unique....'
..... Ok.... I may have some of the above..... ;-)
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Cam Atis
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Re: My soap box about Pitt Bulls

Post by Cam Atis »

It says " No Link between aggressive dog breeds and delinquent owners: Study"

Why, they finally found out thru this study that that notion of violent people gravitating towards aggressive breeds is a false one. It just doesn't tick.
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