Buyer's paranoia

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Midare
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Buyer's paranoia

Post by Midare »

Hello,

I've just recently started shopping arround looking for a puppy for my fiancee. I contacted a breeder through NextDayPets.com and although the puppy in the listing I responded to was from a prior litter (no longer available) she did have a litter from last month that she was open to deposits on. However, several little things are making me unsure/uncomfortable and I was wondering if I could get a little input from those who've made purchases before to see if I'm just being paranoid.

1. Breeder responded to an inquery I had about the puppy's temperment with the advisement that if I trust in Christ that everything will be fine.
Normally I'd chaulk this up to just an eccentric personality... but the NextDayPets site actually warns that they have issues with scam artists occationally, and that these individuals often use claims of association with religious organizations like that their prior customers are doing missionary work in Africa and things of that sort. Perhaps reading that warning on the site just has me primed to be wary of people claiming to run ministries and breed puppies all at once. Coupled with dodging a question about temperment... this was my first red flag.

2. I suspect that the sire is only 15 months old... I'm not familiar if this is considered odd, I know that a dame should generally be about 2 years old before breeding, and that a male dog probably isn't going to suffer any ill effects by getting his nasty on as what amounts to being a teenager. (One of the images I received of the sire said "7mos" followed by a date from a few months back which with some math leads me to beleive him to be 15 months old.) It is less health-risk to the father that concerns me so much as it is that with a male so young... how can one have had time to have him properly screened for health concerns... and if he is just entering *Censored Word* maturity is their some risk that he may have a bad temperment which isn't yet identified.

I'd like to move forward with a purchase with a confidant feeling, but these two elements have me narrowing my eyes a little.
Does this sound fishy to anyone else?
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TyChowgirl
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by TyChowgirl »

Yea I'd definitely be wary of that for sure. Where do you live? ( you don't have to give exact location) but there are definitely people here who could point you in a better direction. I know many good and registered breeders are hard to find via web page and need contacted by phone. Did you try the akc web page?
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Ursa's daddy
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Ursa's daddy »

A quick sarcastic reply. As Ronald Reagan said, "trust but verify." My opinion is that there are two types of breeders. One is the individual out for the quick buck. These are the people that run puppy mills, and you get the luck of the draw. The other is the breeder who is interested in breeding the best animals possible. Since this breeder knows his/her animals are the best advertisement, the breeder will provide additional information, contact with satisfied customers, visits to the facilities, history of the sire and dam, and other services.
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Victory
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Victory »

Run from this purchase. The answer about the temperment is a big warning. Temperment is so important with any breed and especially with the independent breeds. Anyone answering a question about temperment with such an off hand remark is, (I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but telling someone to turn to diety is just not a good answer) most breeders of merit will talk about the temperments of the sire and dam and even the grandparents and great-grand parents.

Also a 15 old male should really not have been bred. He's not old enough to have been tested for genetic health issues, hip and elbow tests really can't be done until they are 18 months at the very least.

Buying a puppy is a very serious and often times a long process. But the main thing is to know the reputation of the breeders, ask around about them, look for recommendations by chow chow organizations. And when you find a breeder you like, get the names of the parents, check the pedigree on the sites that list health tests, OFA and some others. You want your puppy to be as healthy as possible.
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Midare
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Midare »

TyChowgirl, I'm out of the country at the moment, in Canada for myself but the home we're settling into for years end is in Washington state. I reached out to a member of the Pacific NW Chow chow Club via her email on their site but haven't heard back from her yet. She may be busy or out of town.

Right now I'm in correspondence with at least one breeder whom I -do- like the feel of and who fits Ursa's daddy's second breeder description much more: pictures of the parents past litter, offer of referrals, and discussion of the parent's personalities along with the explaination that the puppies are too young to assess their personalities directly. The litters are almost the exact same age, I just found this other breeder's response to give more valuable information to me than... upselling one's other "services".
Midare
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Midare »

Victory wrote:<snip> most breeders of merit will talk about the temperments of the sire and dam and even the grandparents and great-grand parents.
Also a 15 old male should really not have been bred. He's not old enough to have been tested for genetic health issues, hip and elbow tests really can't be done until they are 18 months at the very least.
Thank you, Victory, I prefer straight answers such as yours on these things. The health and stability of a puppy is my first priority, this little fluff ball is going to be a major player in our family dynamic (child-free guarantee). I know my fiancee would be heart broken if we got the puppy and it was sick and passed away. I know to ask about hip testing, are there any other tests that are "must haves" ? (I would have said that I thought I had 6 more months to do this research if you'd asked me a month ago, sorry if I sound uninformed.)
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cherriemater
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by cherriemater »

I agree with all of the above. We just went through this process and I can tell you that, at times, it was a nightmare. Briefly, we put in a deposit BEFORE THE PUPPY WAS BORN to "save" our spot on the list. My bad (shame on you, Marti!) ... that should have been my first red flag. So then, we wait about a year all the while the breeder NEVER contacts me when a litter is born (and they spell it "liter" on the web page, another red flag). I actually contact THEM when I notice it on their web page. Another issue, they NEVER talk to me. They answer my questions in one-word answers. All this was done before our Kimba-girl passed.

So, with the added heartache of losing Kimba (we wanted her to teach the new pup all her wonderful stuff) I began searching the internet again. Talked with a really nice lady who lived in Michigan north of us and got on her "list" WITHOUT a deposit. Four months later SHE contacted US two days after they were born, but asked us to wait to send the deposit until she could get pictures to us (her description had us so excited but it was she who held us off ... that points to experience as a breeder). Only after she sent us pictures and gave us more details on their general health did she allow us to send up the deposit.

Afterward, she kept us posted on their "goings-on," sent pictures when I asked, used great candor when I asked questions, offered the name of her Vet so I could do some checking of my own and really made this process as seamless as possible. She also sent pictures of Sire and Dam so we could get a general idea of what they may look like once grown.

Just before we decided to go with the breeder of our boys, I contacted our CCCI rep for Michigan and she was VERY helpful. She, basically, told me that if the breeder won't answer questions or provide information without pulling teeth ... to RUN (as Victory says). Especially if you've never dealt with that person before. A reputable breeder has NOTHING to fear in being open and honest with you. Ursa's daddy says it perfectly that the pups are the "best advertisement."

No matter how many times I, the nervous Momma-to-be contacted our breeder, she was always polite and answered my questions/concerns. She really made it an easy process and the very fact that you're questioning yours ... no matter how it may hurt your heart ... please, do, walk away. There are so many chow-babies out there that, while it may take some looking, you'll find the right one with a bit more research.

Keep in mind ... this is a lifetime decision. You want to make the best life for your chow chow and want it to only ENHANCE your own. ((Joyful tears are welling up for me.)) Our boys have done just that for us.
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Yvonne
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Yvonne »

I'd definitely find another breeder.

For all the reasons others have listed in the above posts.
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Sirchow »

Another way to find a good breeder is to listen to what they want to know about you. They wont let a puppy go to anyone they think is not suitable. So it is a two way process. The more health and background questions you ask the more they can tell you are a caring informed owner. Having said that if I was selling puppies I would want to know as much about the prospective owners background and understanding of the breed and also their circumstances. So a breeder who leaves to a higher power has little interst in ensuring their puppies best interest for the future imo. I think you need to use your gut instincts and talk to a few breeders to get an idea of how a breeder should respond on the phone. Good luck and I hope you find your precious puppy soon. :D
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Midare
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Midare »

Thank you, all, for your responses and great advice. We've moved our attentions to a more respondent breeder... lol now we just have to hope WE pass muster. Lining up our intended vets, budgetting ahead for socialization/puppy training classes and other costs. Much work to be done before hand. Still nothing back from the Pacific NW Chowchow Club... hopefully I hear back soon so we can put out a few more feelers closer to home. Right now all the people we've been in contact witha are outside WA state and I feel sort of bad being in a situation where the puppy may need to be shipped to us. (I hate flying, can't imagine a puppy will care for it.)
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Judy Fox »

Sirchow has a very valid point.

She and I were lucky enough to have puppies from the same breeder - we got Matilda and Maisie and she got beautiful Issie.

Before we were allowed to have Matilda we were "interviewed" by her breeder and questioned about everything and I suspect Sirchow was too.

Another point is that when the breeder brought Matilda's litter sister to live with us when they were five months old, she asked us to promise that if anything went wrong in the future, we would contact her and let her have the girls back rather than let them go anywhere else. This we did - we promised and we meant it.

It is comforting to know that if, in the future something happened and we could not look after them properly, they would be taken care of and bless her, she included our old girl Mabel who was not from her.

We keep in contact with her and send her photos of the girls and she pops in to see them - we refer to her as "Mummy Joan" to them.

Buying a puppy is indeed a very serious thing and you are wise to be careful.
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Victory
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Victory »

Midare wrote:
Victory wrote:<snip> most breeders of merit will talk about the temperments of the sire and dam and even the grandparents and great-grand parents.
Also a 15 old male should really not have been bred. He's not old enough to have been tested for genetic health issues, hip and elbow tests really can't be done until they are 18 months at the very least.
Thank you, Victory, I prefer straight answers such as yours on these things. The health and stability of a puppy is my first priority, this little fluff ball is going to be a major player in our family dynamic (child-free guarantee). I know my fiancee would be heart broken if we got the puppy and it was sick and passed away. I know to ask about hip testing, are there any other tests that are "must haves" ? (I would have said that I thought I had 6 more months to do this research if you'd asked me a month ago, sorry if I sound uninformed.)
Elbows are another joint that is probelmatic with chows, (they have a VERY high incidence of elbow dysplasia) also, thyroid issues, entropian and other eye issues, heart problems. Like any pure breed, there are multiple genetic problems now. A good breeder is aware of this, has parents, grandparents, great grandparents tested and will have records of those tests. They will also admit that no amount of testing is going to quarantee a perfectly healthy puppy but it surely helps.
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by bellachow »

Victory is correct, no amount of testing is a guarantee but it doesnt hurt. And I wouldn't worry too much about flying the little guy or girl in...puppies are resilient and as long as you are doing it at this time of the year he/she should be ok. Another sign of a good breeder is one that will not ship a puppy by air in the summer (cargo holds of airplanes are not air conditioned).
Midare
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Midare »

Thank you, Victory. I'll keep that list in mind as I continue communications with people. You're a priceless asset! :D I confess to having skimmed your posts via your profile to glean info from your answers to questions others have posted.

That is a very good point, Bella. I hadn't thought of that... I was just thinking the holds would be very cold, but the chows are probably better able to be prepared for that (blanket) than for the opposite extreme. Thank you. I'll still keep trying to wade through old defunct geocities breeder sites looking for contact info for WA/OR breeders. it would be nice to find a puppy closer to Everett, WA so she could meet the breeder, dame, and/or sire. It seems like most folks have to travel or ship, though.
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Rory's Dad »

Just to add to the replies... We were lucky enough to locate a breeder local to us after losing our two older chowbies...13 and 9 to be exact...within about 6 months of each other. We met the breeder and both parents. Were very happy with the disposition of both, and that is very important. We have had problems finding vets in the past because many of them are acutally afraid of the breed. Since it was fairly close, we were able to use the same vet the breeder used. They were great. They asked us about neutering. I have never considered this with my previous Chows, and they were not even close to the breed standard that our new Rory is. The vet recommended genetic testing at age 2 and not before. They recommend the usual, hips etc, but also insisted on eyes.

The breeder was also very concerned about our experience with Chows, and not just enamored with the looks of the puppies, cause darn they are the cutest ever...

Breeders that dont answer any question you ask are iffy at best. Meet the parents or any other dogs they may have. This is important to judging how the litter will end up. Be prepared to socialize any Chow, and i mean a lot. It makes them so much better as a pet.
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by chowchowdaddy »

Just wanted to throw our two cents worth in, and to reiterate what others have said: Any reliable breeder should always insist that if anything happens and you are unable to care for the chow in the future, they (the breeder) will take them back. We have friends who are breeders (good, reliable breeders who produce one litter every couple of years or so, not so-called backyard breeders) and that's pretty standard stuff for them...
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by Ursa's daddy »

Rory's Dad has a good point
Be prepared to socialize any Chow, and I mean a lot. It makes them so much better as a pet.
The dog that you get will be both a product of the breeder (the raw material) and your training. Training and socialization are so very important.
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Re: Buyer's paranoia

Post by TyChowgirl »

Absolutely to both of those responses. Every time I feel a little down about how shy and skittish Ty seems to be, he surprises me on how much of a good boy he is and how much progress he's made (and continues making an effort it seems); the break throughs I've had with him because I take him every where I can with me and still have people try to pet him, give him treats, and have him meet/play with other dogs has made a huge difference. He's only about 10 months now and at the rate he's going, he may be a friendlier and more relaxed chow boy when he's older. It's all about socialization, correction, and love. When I mean correction, I mean letting he/she know who's boss, what's allowed, and what's not by either voice, look, or slight touch. I've gotten to the point that my neighbor said I would. I thought I'd want a different breed when it comes to a second dog, but once I've gone chow...looks like I'm in love with these dogs :)
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