QUESTIONS FOR MERLIN

[valerierichard27]

Hello everyone,
I resently read a post where they were badmouthing LA BANDE A KIWI. I and it hurt me alot to see that. So i decided to write this post to let everyone know how good and loving Michel and Francine are. I bought Romeo from them about 1 1/2 months ago. I was very impressed by what i saw. The puppies had a house of thier own, with electicity and a fenced yard. I wanted Romeo soo bad, and Michel told me not to rush into buying the puppy, to make sure that that was the one i wanted. They asked me plenty of questions on how my other chow is, how i raise them, and so on. We keep in touch regulary, they are wonderfull. I would like to encourage everyone who has bought a dog from them to write thier story here. Since some people have hurt thier reputations by calling them back yard breeders and all, i think its our duty to help them get back up As fir Romeo, he is sooo nice, hes loving and NOT aggressive. Please post thanks

[Sarahloo]

Aren't puppies supposed to live inside the family home for socialization purposes?

[ccyang]

They are indeed raised in their homes.....but when they're a lil older, that's when they move to their "own" lil place. Its still in the same house....it's a regular suburbs home. Very warm and stuff.....those few times that I went to visit, the place is clean...the puppy's home is so warm and comfy...with classical music playing in the background. So cute. Those puppies and the parents (who are also living at home) are loved...you can so feel it and see it. Like I said in my other post, my baby Pong has just turned a yr old....never ever been aggressive. In fact, you can't believe how many times...strangers on the street tell me how sweet he is, after playing with him. Im so proud that he teaches ppl that the bad reputation chow has is not necessarily true.....depends of how you raise your dog. He's a sweetheart....loves ppl including children and lovesssss other dogs. Hes a confident lil baby, always sleeps with us in our bed...follows us all around....
Anyways, all this to say that I do agree about valerie's post.....others (Merlin) is trying to give La bande a Kiwi a bad reputation. I dont agree with that....especially that this person never ever met those ppl who take such good care of their puppies. I visited their homes a couple of times / talked / emailed to them....and they always told us to be patient and if we're sure that a chow is really a good fit with us. We had to wait 3 months to welcome Pong home....and we're so glad we did wait. He did come from a good home....and both me and my bf said if we're getting a second chow, for sure we'll try to contact the same breeder.

[Merlin]

A thousand people can write their story here all they want.

The law is clear. Unless a chow is registered, it is not a purebred, so in fact you have a chow mix. Unless you have your information, guarantee and pedigree in WRITING the seller is not considered a breeder of merit by anyone.


I never once said these people themselves were "bad" so don't twist what I said.
All I said was that IF you are going to buy a purebred chow you should seek out a BREEDER OF MERIT.

This has nothing to do with how nice Francine is or is not as a person, or how nice she is or is not to her puppies.. Unless her dogs are registered , they are not purebred chows and she cannot claim them to be by LAW!!!

This folks is part of the reason of what is wrong in quebec and that's why quebec remains the mecca for puppy mills.

[Judy Fox]

If a bitch with a pedigree is mated to a dog of the same breed who also has a pedigree - then by definition, the puppies are pedigrees. So therefore, the breeders can write a pedigree listing the bitch and the dog as their parents - their parents as grand-parents and so on.
Is that correct?

Then - if the breeder wishes to register the litter with the Kennel Club, then the puppies are then Pedigree KC registered puppies.

[Merlin]

then by definition, the puppies are pedigrees.

In Canada the puppies, ( the litter), have to be registered to qualify, so no, even if the parents are registered, the puppies must be as well.

[Judy Fox]

But surely you cannot grade a puppy from two pedigree parents as cross bred. They must surely be pedigrees but not registered with the kennel club.

Look at it this way - when Fred and I went to see Matilda as Maisie as babies, we saw them and their litter sister. We saw the mother and we knew where the father was. They were both pedigree chow chows. The three puppies were pedigree chow chows but they were not registered at that point.

You could in no way refer to them as cross breed puppies and then a week later when their breeder registered them, they miraculously became pedigree puppies over night. The fact of their KC registration did not make them pedigrees - the breeding of their Dam and their Sire made them pedigrees. Their Kennel Club Registration gave them the extra status, as it were to be entered in dog shows and so on.

I am glad my two are Kennel Club registered but what I am more pleased about is that their Dam and their Sire are pedigrees, therefore they are too.

How is it in the U.S.A.?

[Merlin]

Who said the parents are pedigreed? I know what you're saying and in fact in the USA, back yard breeders register their dogs with the AKC all the time to the point it's become so ridiculous, that the AKC has entirely lost their sense of purpose. I absolutely agree that just because the dog is registered doesn't make it a quality dog either, however, at least a Chow Club has a code of ethics that it's members are supposed to adhere to even if the CKC and AKC do not, and they are making headway into dealing with the mill industry.

But in any case the law is the law. In this country if your dog isn't registered, it's not a purebred.
Don't forget, there are a lot of breeders who have been thrown out of the Registrars also, just like there are a lot of breeders who have been thrown out or not accepted into breed clubs.

[Judy Fox]

However, the fact remains that a puppy born to a purebred Chow Chow bitch, sired by a purebred Chow Chow dog is a purebred Chow Chow puppy.
That is basic biology. You cannot get away from that.

[Merlin]

Not in Canada! ( thank goodness) and again, who says the parents are registered?

And I say thank goodness for this law, because part of the process of registering the dog means the breeder went out of their way to include in their programs, only Canadian Kennel Club registered (or registerable) stock which will strengthen the genetic pool and, thus, guarantee further progression toward the ideals of the standard, keeping authentic records of their activities;

Any breeder with two registered parents WOULD register their puppies. Why wouldn't they? A "registered" chow is definitely a sell point for any breeder.
If they don't register their puppies, that is a general indication that something is very amiss with the parents being registered. It's part of the reason the law was instilled in the first place

[Judy Fox]

Yes, I see your point and I actually agree with the registering of puppies.

In this country you can only register puppies born to registered parents and these puppies are "Pedigree Registered Puppies" and have the Kennel Club Certificate to say this.

This still does not get past the fact that puppies born to a pedigree bitch and sired by a pedigree dog of the same breed are pedigree pups. As you say, why would a breeder not register a litter of pups born to a registered bitch mated to a registered dog.

However, registered or not, biologically, the pups are pedigree. Fact!

[Merlin]

However, registered or not, biologically, the pups are pedigree. Fact

Ok, I'll agree with that. They are pure descendants of pedigreed parents biologically. Fine! But unless they are registered they have no pedigree ( a play on words actually), - but it's a moot point, because in this case , it has absolutely no bearing on what is being discussed here. The discussion is about breeder ethics and breeder reputation. Is the breeder a mill? or not? That's the issue at hand here. A reputable breeder adheres to a code of ethics whether it be from the kennel club or breed club. There is everything positive about selling one's dog as a registered CKC dog and I can't see any breeder going out of their way NOT to registered their dogs if they had that privilege.

[Judy Fox]

Yes - they do have a pedigree. However, they do not have the Kennel Club recognition of their pedigree - which of course any self respecting breeder wants. It is a way of trying to keep the standard of breeding up and in the case of Chow Chows in this country, the registered breeders who breed take the greatest of care of the quality of their pups and this is acknowledged.

I agree with that and what you are saying about standards.

That is why we approached a breeder who takes the greatest of care of her breeding. All her chow chows are kept in her house, not housed in kennels and are extremely good natured and sociable. Her puppies are greatly sought after and she has a waiting list for puppies and believe me, you consider yourself lucky to get on the waiting list. Then she reserves the right to vet you and your home before she will even consider you as a prospective owner for her puppies. The joy when you get one is tremendous.

This is how all breeders should be. Back street breeders should be hounded out of business.

[Merlin]

Yes - they do have a pedigree.

Not in this country.

Back street breeders should be hounded out of business.

Yes, I totally agree and THANK YOU, because in fact, that IS what this issue is about - Back Street Breeders.

[valerierichard27]

Hey Merlin,
This post is not about YOU so stop writting about papers and pedegree.

[Merlin]

It's unfortuant that you really don't take the time to read.
If you did you'd see that this post isn't about papers.

[valerierichard27]

Not in Canada! ( thank goodness) and again, who says the parents are registered?

And I say thank goodness for this law, because part of the process of registering the dog means the breeder went out of their way to include in their programs, only Canadian Kennel Club registered (or registerable) stock which will strengthen the genetic pool and, thus, guarantee further progression toward the ideals of the standard, keeping authentic records of their activities;

Any breeder with two registered parents WOULD register their puppies. Why wouldn't they? A "registered" chow is definitely a sell point for any breeder.
If they don't register their puppies, that is a general indication that something is very amiss with the parents being registered. It's part of the reason the law was instilled in the first place

REGISTERED= PAPERS *Censored Word*

[Victory]

Not in Canada! ( thank goodness) and again, who says the parents are registered?

And I say thank goodness for this law, because part of the process of registering the dog means the breeder went out of their way to include in their programs, only Canadian Kennel Club registered (or registerable) stock which will strengthen the genetic pool and, thus, guarantee further progression toward the ideals of the standard, keeping authentic records of their activities;

Any breeder with two registered parents WOULD register their puppies. Why wouldn't they? A "registered" chow is definitely a sell point for any breeder.
If they don't register their puppies, that is a general indication that something is very amiss with the parents being registered. It's part of the reason the law was instilled in the first place

I'm sorry, if you think this is going to make any difference it's not. Here's why, you see a registration only includes a lineage list, nothing more. No health tests, no behavioral cert, it doesn't even have to contain an champions. That's why so many byb in the US and US puppy mills can sell so many registered puppies, because the parents were registered, the grandparents were and the great grandparents, great-great grandparents and so on. Many puppy mill and byb bred puppies have lineage records going back to the first chows ,(and other breeds) brought to the US. Doesn't mean a thing, since in the case of puppy mills, the bitches, (and sires) are kept in such horrendous circumstances that the litters are unhealthy, behavioraly unsound and just bad breedings from the beginning. Now unless the CKC has things in the registration which include, not only lineage, but on site visits of breeding faculities, A mandatory physical testing and entry into a few breed specific shows, including at least two opedience ones for behavioral soundness, then that piece of paper is no more meaningful than the ones in the US.

I personally would perfer to have a chow puppy, that I could see, OFA testing done on both parents, that I see some opedience ribbons for, as well as having been shown and judged by knowledgeable chow people, a puppy raised inside with early, (like from birth) socialization, than a puppy with a registration from any Kennel Club. Now to show in most breed shows requires registration of some sort. But many of the best opedience and/or algility shows don't require pedigree registration because so many of the champions of those events have no pedigree, as a lot of them are rescues.

[Merlin]

In principale, I wholeheartedly and totally agree with you, but this is all besides the point because I'm sure the person in question doesn't do any testing either.
But in any case, the law is the law and has to be respected. If you have no papers, you have no proof!

and doesn't this just want to make you laugh?
http://www.netchows.net/cgi-bin/forum/Y ... 1288620143

[Victory]

In principale, I wholeheartedly and totally agree with you, but this is all besides the point because I'm sure the person in question doesn't do any testing either.
But in any case, the law is the law and has to be respected. If you have no papers, you have no proof!

and doesn't this just want to make you laugh?
http://www.netchows.net/cgi-bin/forum/Y ... 1288620143

Yeah, I did laugh. You can't register a dog on your say so...maybe in the future when the genetic tests are 95% accurate. But not now. And yeah you should get papers with a puppy, my Mom's two chows, (who became my first two) were byb, pet store boys and they came with papers. She sent off the proper changes for the names and such, I still have their AKC registrations somewhere. In the US there is even a thing called a companion/pet registration. This is given by the breeder for those puppies they deem not to be good examples of the breed. I'm kind of so so on those, cause 6 week old puppy may not have all the points or whatever they call them to make them show quality, but in a few months things could improve, or maybe that pet quality puppy is the one with the better joints...

[Merlin]

You can't register a dog on your say so

Not on my say so.
No one has to register a dog if they don't want to, but in this country, if you want to claim your dog a purebred it needs to be registered.


That's a pretty simple concept. Also you can't compare the AKC to the CKC. The CKC has developed much better mechanisms than the AKC, which is SOLELY interested in increasing their revenue. I think everyone will agree with you there. No one will dispute that plenty of registered dogs should be, have major health issues and are sold by breeders who should be shoot out and hung to dry. No one will dispute that with you. That's where your National Chow Club becomes your ally and very helpful. They DO insist on a code of ethics of all their members, and every country has a Chow Association, so it's very easy to pick up the phone and see if a breeder is a member. Also, and again, there are simple rules that allow a buyer to better qualify a quality breeder. These indications have been plastered and replasted here now over and over, so there's no excuse for that.

There aren't too many breeders that are out there doing CERF and OFA and aren't registering their dog either - like I said, registered dogs are a definite sell point for any breeder. To do all that work and not register them doesn't make any sense to anyone.

[Sarahloo]

This all boils down to one thing, and we all know it: (some) people want to own a purebred dog but do not want to cough up the $ 2000 that a purebred puppy with "real" papers costs. So they look for cheaper options (in most cases, much cheaper) to the detriment of the "purebred" puppies bred especially for that clientele. My dog escaped from such a breeder, literally escaped as in "ran away as fast as he could", and when I first got him he was so scared and traumatized he could only run in circles. Once those dogs no longer produce puppies, the breeders get rid of them and it's the rescue organizations who have to deal with those poor mangled, sick, traumatized creatures.
If you can't afford a quality puppy, just go to your local shelter and pick up the dog of your dreams for a very small sum. Why does it have to be a not-at-all-purebred "purebred"? At least at the shelter it is "what you see is what you get", whereas you have no idea what your supposedly purebred puppy is going to grow up to look like. There isn't going to be any "Oh, my 'Chow' has floppy ears" or "Oops, his tongue didn't turn blue".
That being said: of course I have no idea which category that Kiwi place belongs to. Although I did notice that their website was almost completely devoid of information, which isn't a good sign. I've never seen a quality breeder's website that didn't at least introduce the breeder's dogs (names, dates, other info) to the reader. And a wikipedia article? OMG!!!

[Merlin]

Sarah, well said!!! That's the point exactly isn't it?. I think we've all met those kinds of people.

[valerierichard27]

LE MAGICIEN NOIR DE L'OBSCURANTIME

LUMIERE ROUGE (meme sauce que tu utilise….)

Merlin's
1. les chow chow que tu sauve ont-ils des papiers ?
oui voir question suivante 2
non ont peut donc dire comme toi que se ne sont pas des chow chows….
arrete de te vanter et de tout savoir….tu sauve des batards

Merlin's
2. Si les chow chows que tu sauve ont des papiers
d’où proviennent ils?

d'éleveurs de mérite ?
oui voir question suivante 3
non donc ils proviennent : de breeders ordinaire
de puppy mills
d éleveurs de fond cours
comment font ils ces gens la pour avoirs des papiers avec de mauvais chiens ?
A quoi serve alors ta montée d'hormone pour les papiers ….

Merlin's
3. Si les chow chows que tu sauve ont des papiers et proviennent d'éleveurs de mérite
Comment se fait-il que leurs chows avec un pedigree sans bavure ont beaucoup de problemes ?
provienne t il du meme eleveur ?
ou d'éleveurs différents ?
A quoi serve alors ta montée d'hormone pour les papiers et les éleveurs de merite

Merlin's
4. A tu déjà placer des chow chows provenant d'éleveur de merite pour les raisons suivantes ?
bébé mal formés…
chow chow trop vieux pour etre vendu…
chow chow non vendu et pas sociabilisé…
Chow chow avec probleme repris par l'eleveur

5. Merlin's
A quel endroits on peut retracer visuellement le bien etre que tu donne personnellement au chow chow ?
pas ceux de ton site qui provienne d'autres personnes ….(copier coller )….

Merlin's
Section Faite ce que je dit pas ce que je fais
6. Donne tu une garantie a vie sur l'adoption ?
7. pourquoi toi aussi tu annonce sur (kijiji et toute sorte de site de bebelles come petfinders ).alors que tu dit que ceux qui font
cela ne sont pas de bon éleveur ?
8. Pourquoi tu vends des bébelles sur ton site ?
9. Pourquoi tu est si ferme avec les prix d'adoption sur ton site ?
tu veut sauver un chow ?
ou le VENDRE ?
10. Sur ton site on ne retrouve pas : qui tu est ?
qu'elle son des connaissances pour une si belle mission ?
(en passant elle semble avoir changer pour du LOBBY de BREEDER)
ou son tes papiers et titre professionnel pour diffusé autant de conseil ou de commentaires ?

11. Merlin's
Sur ton site on remarque que les chow chows a sauver peuvent venir de l'amerique
alors tu est un intermediaire pour sauver les chow chows de l'amerique du nord….
Merlin le Big….il l'on l'affaire les americain

12. Merlin's
Comment tu fais avec autant de responasbilité pour etre toujours sur le site ?
tu doit etre vraiment un magicien ou un IMPOSTEUR

13. Merlin's
A VENIR….

[Merlin]

Wow, It's really sad when people are SO ignorant they don't understand the purpose of a rescue and can't tell the difference between a Rescue and a Vendor who sells animals.
That is more than a tragedy.

I really hope Valerie that some day you become enlighted to what you are saying here. As a matter of fact, I'll pray that you do.

I'm sure on any other occassion you're probably a nice person who cares about their family and their dogs, but that doesn't mean you can increase your own awareness and knowledge.
Anyone who reads what you just wrote will know how utterly ignorant you are on the entire subject of dog ownership, and dogs in general, and you've done that by yourself by posting what you just did.

I hope you spend some time at the next dog show in your area and speak to breeders, and people who are there so that after some time you can come to learn that there is a lot out there that you need to know.

A RESCUE , Valerie is NOT the same as a VENDOR of DOGS, so you cannot compare the two at any level. A RESCUE is NOT a store.

A RESCUE, Valerie, is the local garbage service that cleans up the mess left by irresponsible owners , breeders and puppy mills.
What you just wrote above is the highest insult to anyone who works in rescue, not only chow rescue, but in rescue in general.

It's a shame! an absolute shame!