New owner of 2 gorgeous 1.4 YO chow/rott mixes

[smokefrail]

Hello all!

I'd like to introduce myself and my 2 new household additions and the unique situation they encountered when coming to my home.

I've been interested in getting a dog for quite a while and as a previous pet owner of family dogs that expired due to age. [R.I.P. Brenda and Isis!] and ancillary contact/training of my GF's 2X dumped rescue GSD [runt, but still beautiful/smart w/ some socialization issues E.G. doesn't trust strangers] I've been wanting a dog for both companionship and home security (rural).

While falling in love w/ the reputation and look of the LGD Caucasian Ovcharka, I balked @ the high price of Puppies ($2K avg.) and the near impossibility of finding a rescue and decided that it would be an addition for the future, but there had to be a decent rescue replacement for my wants that needed a good home.
I started browsing local shelters and found many a Pit(mix), GSD(mix), etc. that would fit my want/need and then stumbled upon Ki(ara) and Nala hosted @ a local religious ministry pet rescue and knew that they were a special.
I know it helped that they have the same "bear dog" look of Ovcharkas even though they don't have the heft.

Let me introduce you to them.....

The girls are 1.4 YO Chow/Rott mix sisters that are the happy accident of the "breeder/owner" making a mistake w/ letting their male Rott (husband's) out w/ their female Chow (wife's) when the husband thought the Chow was out of heat. The resulting litter (@ least 3 pups) had the original "B/O's" keep 1 pup (heavy on the Rott side) and farm out Ki and Nala to the wife's parents (not sure if that's all....yet. I'll explain later) where the Mother was disabled and the Father worked 3rd shift. When the girls grew to young adulthood they proved too much for the older couple which gave them back to the daughter.
She, already having 4 dogs (there's a lab as well as the aforementioned), was in violation of a city ordinance that limited family's to 4 dogs and so had to surrender them to the rescue and also had an issue w/ confrontation between the mother and Nala (the Alpha of my pair).
She DID give her name/# asking it be passed on to new owners to keep her abreast of their fortune. A trait not usually found in a rescue situation! (I've called her once the night of adoption but didn't have any questions for her due to my lack of experience w/ them. After 2 wks. of them being in "my pack" I'll be calling her w/ questions tonight for sure!)

In rescue they exhibited separation anxiety when caged separately and when I went to see them they were both in the same cage (6'X12' @ least. This is a NICE rescue!) as the rescue knew of their prior relationship and acted accordingly to defuse the situation.
Since they'd always been together I knew this was a case where I had to adopt both of them to keep them from being split. I've always wanted 2 dogs and since they were same age and good w/ each other, it was a fit.

Nala is a 70 lbs. "black" (although a very fine undercoat of cinnamon gives here chocolate/rust highlights in the sun) w/ almost no ruff and an all over fine fur texture of Chow undercoat. She's the slow moving "brute" of the duo and is established Alpha of the pair. She snores too.

Ki is a 59 lbs. cinnamon girl w/ light black highlights in the rough on her shoulders and lighter, but more conventional Chow over/under coat. She is a skittish girl and still has issues approaching me when called if I'm standing (50% of the time).


The unique situations my adoption of them introduced them to was a cat in the home (a stray adoption the GF talked me into, but is a unique cat and helps w/ rodent control) and that my GF's GSD had been a frequent visitor to my home over a span of years. This is also the home of the deceased prior family (dog) members.

The smells were sure to have been an assault when arriving here and did cause a few "mistakes" even though they were advertised to be housebroken, I had to take it into effect that 1 was a dominance ploy (which failed) and other spots were in a deceased pet's "accident place" and the cat's litter box room.
I just established that this was a "No" behavior by cleaning/deodorizing the spots while having a disapproving air and haven't had an issue since. I was lucky to be able to catch them in the act once so they knew why I was unhappy, even though I don't doubt they may do it again should they get "uppity" in showing displeasure or be deprived of outside access for too long.

The introduction to the cat (Spook) was to give Spook (female) downstairs w/ food/water/litter there and a barrier on the stairs she could navigate but the dogs couldn't. Since I had already done this routine w/ the GF's GSD I fudged the introduction rules a bit in letting the cat decide how/when to make an appearance.
The cat had been a fairly established stray in an area of coyotes and so already had 3 tools necessary for a dominating introduction; attitude, the "stare" (it is entertaining to see a chow lose a stare contest w/ a cat. Nala seems embarrassed by it.) and the tendency to move slowly and purposefully unless there is a definite reason to bolt while letting the other animal know via the low "you mess w/ me, I'll mess you up" growl in confrontation and following that up with a no claw feint the 1st time, and claws next time should you be too stupid to take the hint.
The result is that Nala still has an intense, but reserved, interest in the cat while Ki is usually somewhat disinterested unless Nala triggers quickly on the cat making a sound or the cat's name being called.

Last night a milestone was accomplished w/ all of them laying in the LR w/ no barriers w/i 3' of each other. I have confidence that things will progress accordingly although I do believe claws may make an appearance after time since both Chows and Rotts have a high prey drive and the cat won't tolerate infraction.

In fact while I type this the cat is in my lap and the girls are laying about 5-6' from me.
This is how I have chosen to introduce them and NOT the usual recommended practice. I would not try this w/ a normal house cat!!!

The introduction to the GF's GSD (Cara, consequently why Ki(ara)'s name got shortened) was a bit more intense since Kara is 6 YO, has free run of the house, no outside restrictions, and a bit of owner protectiveness of me as I'm a proxy owner/dominant Alpha whenever in her presence (she chose this).
While having my girls on leash they were introduced to Kara "live" (they'd smelled her on both me and the GF constantly for a week before introduction) in the unfenced front yard. Cara was the 1st to growl and feint when the girls got to close to her pack (GF and her daughter). I rebuked Cara and after everyone had a good smell of everyone else all were allowed both inside, and in the fenced yard off leash, but under constant supervision. This finally resulted in all 3 girls lying in the LR (but only in close proximity of their "pack") while we all watched a movie, but not w/o a few more Alpha "barks" from me beforehand to whomever was showing attitude.
This has been the only introduction but I hope (and am fairly sure) that future ones will be more relaxed over time.
All girl's seem to respect me as Alpha which definitely helps me keep order should anyone try to get twitchy.

I am still having issues w/ selective hearing (both), skittishness (Ki), outright insubordination (both), roughhousing in the house, and their regular teenage angst. When displeased about my being away (whether it's me leaving or they are in the fenced yard while I am working outside the fence) they have not been shy about showing their displeasure by savaging a recent object of my attention (pencil, cup, garden seedling [outside], etc.) to let me know they are not happy w/ me. This will happen as they look like adult dogs but still have a bit of puppy in them. Training, patience, time, and the input of the good experienced owners in this forum should help me take care of this and it is @ least a good sign of intelligence.

I invite all insight, criticism, and tips that folks might want to share and am already learning Chow specific training insights from the reading I've done on the boards since finding this site today.

Thanks for all you've shared!

[smokefrail]

...and in the grand internet tradition of "pics, or it didn't happen", my babies.

The trip home from rescue-

The trip home from rescue

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Nala in the yard-

Nala in the yard

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Ki in the yard-

Ki in the yard

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[smokefrail]

Nala and the cat in standoff mode-

Nala and the cat in standoff mode

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head2head-

head2head

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[Cindy J]

I love the write up and pictures! It sounds as if you have a fairly good idea of the tools that you will need to make this work. I applaud you for reaching out to a rescue and for taking both dogs in to your home.

They appear to be settling in nicely. I will be watching for updates and more photos. Willing to bet that this duo will keep you on your toes.

[rmb]

You have a great looking pair of girls & it sounds like you are handling their integration well. The only thing I would say is that, having adopted a 1 year old skittish full chow from a shelter, it took several months for him to really relax in his new home. He is still skittish (2 years later) around other people & I'm convinced it's best to not push him, let him retreat into another room if he wants to.
Congrats & good luck to all of you.

[smokefrail]

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the replies and support of my endeavor!

I hope I am equal to the plethora of goals and pitfalls that my new family members have made realized. I'll lay them out in bulleted good news/needs work (bad news) format.


Good news items 1st!

- The "accident" issues have been pretty good w/ a relapse only when it was raining outside and no one wanted to go out. Cain was raised when a pile and wet spot was found in one of the bedrooms and they were forced to stay outside that day during the rain multiple times to insure that they knew it would not be tolerated. We will have to wait for another morning rain for a true test of whether it has sunk in.
I'm a little confused at their aversion to rain as the basement flooded earlier this month and both had no issues coming downstairs and wading in up to 1" standing water, even to the point of laying down in the shallow spots to keep me company while I worked on cleaning up (although they weren't given much choice as the "item savagery" [a polyfiber duster, multiple wooden cook spoons, etc.] is still happening every so often, but on an increasingly infrequent basis, except for getting in the trash. I'm going to cheat a bit on this one and just get a taller kitchen trash can w/ a sealing lid).
Yes, they do have chew toys/bones so they are not deprived of items that are theirs to destroy.

- The cat situation is better in that there seems to be a truce of mutual respect. they seem to be getting used to the idea that other family members are NOT toys and now do not immediately trigger upon hearing the cats name called. They respect the cat's favorite spots and will sniff them, but do not try to "own" them. The cat still walks slowly and purposefully but will meow instead of hiss when she feels her personal space is being violated.

- Ki will now come 90-95% of the time when called the 1st time (Nala always has been a steady 85-90%) and is a MUCH more confident dog evinced by tail up when petted and is working on becoming a "daddy's girl" in her efforts to please. Nala seems to be leaning more towards the Rott stubbornness/ Chow aloofness as she has what seems to be a 3-5 sec. delay, and sometimes much more, in preforming an asked task unless there is food involved.
I'm not a fan of food based training since, were I a dog, I'd have serious reservations about still preforming the assigned task when I noticed the treats stopped flowing.

- They are both shamed into doing much better listening when the GF's GSD comes over and they see the praise she gets when she instantly preforms the appropriate command when asked. I plan on many more shaming sessions as I would like to be able to let them out outside the fence off leash with better than 50% confidence and they give a very jealous eye to the GSD when she's outside fence w/ the GF and I. Cruel I know, but since I don't use a stick to persuade good behavior I gotta have a carrot to use instead and it's SOOOOO much easier to have an older dog show them the example of good behavior and the benefits it brings.

- For having never been trained they've come to grasp the basics fairly well (sit, come, stay (to a point), and "go lay down" aka "Unless it's REALLY important, leave me be" also issued as "back off" when I'm filling food bowls). Ki is @ about 90-95% compliance or better where Nala comes in @ about 60-65% (except for "come") right now but it's better than it was and I hope it keeps improving (as to why I only hope, see bullet #2 below).
Thankfully one of the most important traits (alerting/guarding) comes naturally and only needs to be tweaked for them to know when it's appropriate.
Once I get 90-95% WITH BOTH we'll work on new tricks.

The bad:

- They have a......a....polyfill addiction.
I blame the GF for giving them the stuffed animal squeaky toys which are disemboweled of their squeakors w/i the 1st hour and then the shredding beings. This behavior abstracted itself to the point of a living room couch throw pillow being sacrificed to their desires and it was NOT a good day for them or I in that they were punished by banishment outside for the day until evening dinner time (the fenced yard has all day shade and a 5 gal. bucket of water so they are not THAT deprived! ).
I've assuaged the habit with an every 3 day bone for each but they can reduce a 5-7" bone w/ 2 1'/2" knuckles to small shards in 3-4 hours (not always, but they have before). I'm considering going to the source and asking a local butcher what he wants for raw beef or pork bones before buying the pre-packaged ones bankrupt me. The upside of the bone regimen is sparkly white teeth with no signs of tartar!

- I've inherited (and perhaps perpetuated) a dastardly situation known as "littermate syndrome". If you look it up you'll see that it's not absolute across the board for all dogs but the girls have more than a slight touch of it. 25% of the time they (breaking eye contact with me) will confer w/ each other before executing (or failing to) a command. It's not to the point where I'm ready to break them up (reportedly the only real cure for the syndrome) but I need their attention on me and not each other. Separate training of each seems to be making an impact so I hope it keeps progressing.

- They may have put on 3-5 lbs. since they came into my care. Ki looks fine with it but Nala seems to accruing a more level underside which is not the best of signs. this may be happening because it's been hard to gauge how much to feed them since I've had to quest to find a brand that agrees with them both as it seems Nala can eat anything, but Ki has a more delicate system that results in no firm stools unless the food agrees with her. Since cleaning poo-puddles out of the lawn is not possible w/o 3-4 warm days of no rain this was of paramount importance. I seem to have found a mixture of foods (2:1 Exclusive Large breed puppy and Doc's Choice) that agrees with Ki. They are even given treats (or more likely I drop some bit of food in the kitchen and don't feel like cleaning it up aka the 2nd most important instinctual function of a dog).

- it's sometimes hard to treat them as individuals. "Attached at the hip" and "bookends" are terms that I (and others) have used to describe them. Subsequently, they often share punishment (banishment to the yard) when transgressions occur. Not their fault, but mine since I usually don't see the act in progress but they both know why it (banishment) is happening.
I usually try to praise them together as well, but since any reason for praise IS observed by me the 1st one to perform correctly (usually Ki) is the 1st one to get praise and it's usually of a much more enthusiastic nature than that for the "Johnny come lately".

- OMG, the fur! (and I usually think those sort of acronyms are EXTREMELY overused and trite!)
Even though thing have calmed down a bit on this front, they constantly shed and have blown coat (winter/spring morphing to summer) for the 1st 2 1/2 mo. I had them. This necessitated the need for daily "scrubbing" (which is pretty much a full body massage with my fingertips scaring up cantaloupe sized balls of fur combined from both DAILY!!)
I do this since brushes fill to quickly and take to long to clean when you're dealing with seasonal shedding coat IMHO.
They do love it and it gives me "personal time" with each to the exclusion of the other (you cannot scrub one dog while the other is constantly asking for the same amount of attention at the same time). Now that each one knows that each session includes both being looked after (on an alternating 1st up basis) they are pretty good about listening when I tell one to lay down and wait.

No pics of my beauties at this time around as I haven't felt the urge to take any lately. Right now they are passed out at my feet on the floor of the man cave and pictures of the man cave are not something I assault the interwebs fine sensibilities with.

Cindy J - Thank you for the warm welcome and your belief (perhaps misguided) of my abilities to wrangle these 2 into well mannered guardians/pets.The well mannered pet part is the hardest but following close behind is the ability for them to listen to you about toning down the guardian part on command. So far they are pretty sociable (taking into consideration the personality traits exposed in the 1st post) and have been socialized with a variety of people and 2 other dogs but I'm trying to walk that fine line in training of "everyone deserves both respect and suspicion until their character has been attested to by the alpha". Animals and small children are the best instinctual judges of character (which is why I like your sig!) but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor and it still might be best that I have the final say (not that their estimation will not be taken into consideration).

BTW, Chance is one fine looking animal!

rmb - Thank you for the congrats. From the description above you can see that Ki is coming around quite nicely and your experience seems to underscore the one I'm experiencing right now. I've given them the opportunity to go off and "pout" somewhere if they are feeling put off by a situation but not before they know they have to ask for permission which is usually granted after being asked for via a tongue bath (Ki) or "trash talking" (Nala)

Thank you for the wish of luck as well as I think I'll need a LOT of that!