Question about Glucosamine, Chondrotin & MSM

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Question about Glucosamine, Chondrotin & MSM

Postby Sydney » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:10 pm

I've read Kiwani's post on Glucosamine and found it all VERY helpful. I've seached for years to find the right blend & type. I think I've been on the right track but still have a few questions, please:

Are liquids better then caps? Hope it's not so because I prefer caps or gelcaps.
Is Glucosamine alone enough?
Is there any merit to Chondrotin Sulfate?
Is a combination of Glucosamine, Chondrotin & MSM (saw your mention of MSM reducing swelling) a good way to go? Or are all 3 overkill?

I've read tons of articles on this but still can't find a straight forward one that just gives me all I need. I've read that the typical 50 lbs chow needs the following to be effective:

1500 mgs of Glucosamine
800 mgs of Chondrotin
400 mgs of MSM

Would appreciate any advice that Kiwani or anyone that's supplementing can offer.

Thanks,
Syd

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Postby kiwani » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:13 am

Re: "I've read Kiwani's post on Glucosamine and found it all VERY helpful."

Thank you - Here is that thread link, in order to keep all the information together:

http://chowchow.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7606


I'm going to reply to your questions in sections:

Re: "Is Glucosamine alone enough? Is there any merit to Chondrotin Sulfate? Is a combination of Glucosamine, Chondrotin & MSM (saw your mention of MSM reducing swelling) a good way to go? Or are all 3 overkill?"



Here are some excerpts which explain the role and sources of glucosamine and chondroitin. The MSM sulphur has it's own important role to play in the body, not only in cartilage synthesis, protecting connective tissue, slowing down collagen aging, protecting against toxins, disinfecting the blood, helping the immune system, reducing inflammation, etc. Dogs very often don't get enough sulphur in their diets, and the degree that they are over-medicated, treated with pesticides, etc., increases their need for sulphur, etc.

These bone/joint protective formulas work in a synergy effect.
Not all bones in the body have cartilage caps, as joint bones do, so the formulas are designed to maximize overall support, by reducing inflammation, etc.


Excerpt:

"Glucosamine is usually derived from marine exoskeletons and it available as water soluble salts : glucosamine hydrochloride, glucosamine sulphate and N-acetyl-glucosamine.(7)

Chondroitin sulphate is the main naturally occurring polysaccharide (glycosaminoglycans) found in cartilage (3,4). It is also present in other tissues including bone, cornea, skin and arterial walls (7)

Chondroitin sulphate is a fundamental component of aggrecan which provides shock-absorbing properties in articular cartilage.

Both glucosamine and chondroitin supplementation are thought to promote and maintain the structure and function of cartilage in joints and may also have anti-inflammatory properties. Glucosamine may have antioxidant properties and chondroitin may confer chondroprotection by increasing the production of glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) which inhibit enzymes that damage the cartilage or that block nutrient transport to the cartilage (7).

Commercial sources of chondroitin sulphate used for nutritional supplementation include cartilage from cattle, sharks and rays, green-lipped muscles and seaweed.(3)"

[note: I didn't post a link to the research excerpts, because they were used on a commercial site, selling an inferior product]

luvchows

Liquid vs. powder vs. tablets

Postby luvchows » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:57 am

<<Are liquids better then caps? Hope it's not so because I prefer caps or gelcaps.>>

Kiwani, could you speak to this question too?

I have heard that liquid is more easily absorbed by dogs and that powder (capsules) is more easily absorbed than tablets.

Thank you for sharing all your wisdom and knowledge on this and so MANY other topcs. It is greatly appreciated!

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Postby Layla » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:19 am

Kiwani - is there an optimal are to start supplementation of these compounds? Thanks
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Postby kiwani » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:16 am

Re: "Are liquids better then caps? Hope it's not so because I prefer caps or gelcaps."

"Kiwani, could you speak to this question too?"


I'll make an attempt now. :) I had an appointment to keep earlier, and couldn't continue writing this morning.

Below is a short review of the excerpts from the original thread. The glucosamine hydrochloride is the purer version (99% pure) and is *readily absorbable*. The less pure, sulfate version, is often blended into liquid formulas.

It's important to know what version the liquid formula contains, and what preservatives are used to *stabilize* the glucosamine and the liquid product. You need to know the complete ingredients list, including preservatives, flavoring agents, any color additives, etc. For example, GLYCO-FLEX tablets contain a pharmaceutical grade glucosamine, but also contain MSG as a smoke flavor. MSG can be a seizure trigger for some dogs, and it's not something I would choose to feed every day anyway. These ingredients aren't always listed on the label.

You would have to weigh whether a pharmaceutical grade, human quality tablet version, might have a better blend of ingredients, than any liquid version. You have to be able to cut through advertising claims, and look closely at the complete ingredients list.

There are so many brands to sort through. I agree that it would be helpful to try to narrow the field of choices, by discussing ingredients lists.


Excerpts:

"Because glucosamine sulfate is made from glucosamine hydrochloride, it is significantly more expensive - approximately twice the price of the hydrochloride. The necessary addition of 26% sodium chloride to maintain stability further dilutes the sulfate and significantly adds to the cost of the sulfate on an active glucosamine basis.

Conversely, Glucosamine HCI provides a high purity, stable source of glucosamine that is readily absorbed by the body"


"The hydrochloride form is more concentrated than the sulfate form, and the hydrochloride form contains substantially less sodium per effective dose than the sulfate form. Glucosamine sulfate is stabilized with sodium chloride (table salt) and can contain as much as 30% sodium."
Last edited by kiwani on Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby kiwani » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:45 am

Re: "is there an optimal are to start supplementation of these compounds?"

Since these supplements can affect insulin and also have some blood thinning effect, I think it's important to discuss *dosage strength* with the doctor before starting. This question ties in to Sydney's question about dosage.

Whatever the age and condition of the Chow, I think it's also important to feed an anti-inflammatory diet, rather than just trying to douse the inflammation with these supplements. It's important to avoid inflammatory fats, junk treats, toxins, preservatives, casual dosing of meds, excess stress, etc., all which affect inflammation in the body. It's important to maintain the health and integrity of the gut lining, in order to protect the joints. It's also important to feed sulphur rich fresh foods, to maintain a lean body, avoid over-nutrition, be careful with exercise, etc. All these are as important.

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Postby summer_rose03 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:53 pm

I'm not sure on the dosage, but Frisco has been on the glucosamine chondriton with MSM for years. My mom insists it has to have the MSM in it. She used to work in a pharmacy, so I trust her. He takes a couple pills twice a day, along with fish oil pills.
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Postby Sydney » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:42 pm

Kiwani:

Thank you for all you time regarding this subject.

Just a couple more questions:

Is the vegetable glucosamine HCL as good as shellfish? I've used it but then stopped because I just wasn't sure.

Is it ok to give Omega 3,6 &9? I was using that for the longest time then switched to just Omega 3 salmon oil.

My female chow has arthritis and she's only 4 years old. It's not bad, I'm just hoping to prevent it from getting worse or causing her pain.

Thank you again, I know you've spent alot of time on this subject. It seems not all vets are all that familar with this topic. They do tell you to give them Glucosamine, Chondrotin and MSM but then don't have a clue as to what kind or how much. So you do the best you can on your own with the help of others.

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Postby kiwani » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:59 am

Re: "Is the vegetable glucosamine HCL as good as shellfish? I've used it but then stopped because I just wasn't sure."

The corn version was primarily designed for those who had various dietary restrictions against using shellfish. There probably is a much wider range of quality formulas to choose from, using the shellfish version. I personally would prefer the shellfish version, since I wonder how much corn is genetically modified by Monsanto these days.


Re: "Is it ok to give Omega 3,6 &9? I was using that for the longest time then switched to just Omega 3 salmon oil."

Dogs are already overloaded with 6's and have enough 9's in their diet too. It's the 3's that they could use more of, and by supplementing with even more 6's and 9's, causes the body to lose more of the 3's.


Re: "My female chow has arthritis and she's only 4 years old. It's not bad, I'm just hoping to prevent it from getting worse or causing her pain."

You might review the discussion on natural ways to lower the cox-2 enzyme, or do an online search. There also are some discussions on other joint supplements - probably in the threads about accupuncture or possibly where 3blackchows discusses surgery and we reviewed various supplements.

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Postby threedogjeep » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:02 pm

Kiwani..
What is "casual dosing of meds" and can you point out some good treats that are simple and easy...maybe something that is good as a vehicle for the meds?
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Postby Juniper » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:51 pm

Well, I hope you don't mind since you asked Kiwani.

I use Breeder's Choice Active Care Chew Treats (my chows didn't like the Biscuits). Where I live the treats cost $17.00/lb. But I also get it in 5 lbs. boxes for about $68/lb + tax. 4 treats per day give 3300 + mgs from chicken cartilage. What I find strange is that chicken is inflammatory in a diet maybe cartilage properties are not and then again the other nutrients added could be countering the anti-inflammatory effect.

http://www.breeders-choice.com/dog_prod ... _chews.htm

Troy does well on these since I've been giving him 4+ chews/day. My holistic vet told me that it was important to give 3000 mg+/day of Chondroitin Sulfate for it to do any good.

I also have Troy on an anti-inflammatory diet- rabbit, duck, beef, eggs...it appears to be working. I make sure not to feed any lamb, chicken, turkey.... Troy's a rescue who is now only 2 years old, weighs 55 lbs. and got a fractured hind leg as a puppy which has considerable arthritis.
For pain I give him Arnica Montana homeopathy - 2 tabs as needed.
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Postby kiwani » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:30 am

Re: "What is "casual dosing of meds"

For example, when doctors throw antibiotics or prednisone at a problem they're not sure of, and say 'just in case'. Or groomers expecting dogs to be aced, etc.

If Leela is still taking the pain meds for the HD, you might try wrapping the pill in softened string cheese, low-fat cream cheese, lightly browned all beef hot dog chunks, etc. Then there are 'pet piller' plungers, pill pockets, etc.

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Postby threedogjeep » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:44 pm

Leela is on Glycoflex III and I get away with just crumbling it up in her kibble, and she gets a herbal supplement on her food as well that has glucosamine. Only pill she takes is a cranberry pill to prevent more UTIs and she takes that with a little low fast cheese or string cheese and on special occasions some peanut butter or a tiny bite of whole grain bread. The lightly browned all beef hot dogs sounds like a good idea as well.

Juniper, Arnica Montana Homeopathy? Wonder if that is anything like DGP? I'll google it. That is what my 15 yo lab mix is taking for pain.

And man, chicken is an inflammatory? I'm gonna have to look those up too.
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Postby bama » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:38 am

Just a little FYI to add to this great conversation...
Did you guys know that most ALL Glucosemine (human and pet grade) is sourced from China? Even commercial dog food companies who claim NOT to out-source from China, in fact really do so, if their product contains added Glucosemine or Taurine.
I *think* the only major vitamin company left in the U.S. that grows it's own product is Shaklee Vitamins.
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Postby WildThings » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:09 am

Ooh, Bama, thanks for pointing that out. My collie Tacia just ran out so I was going searching for a better brand today. I will have to go to the health food store and see what I can find. My local health food store is adamant about not stocking products from China so I'm sure they'll have something. I would rather get supplements from them than large commercial stores anyway, I trust the ingredients a lot more.
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Postby kiwani » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:13 pm

That's why I always stress the importance of choosing pharmaceutical grade 99% pure, which are marked with quality seals. As mentioned several times before, pharmaceutical grade is not the same thing as pharmacy brands.

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Postby Sydney » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:27 pm

I'm searching and searching. If anyone out there finds a pharmaceutical grade PLEASE share with the rest of us. I'm becoming so skeptical about anything I buy these days. All I want is a quality brand and I'm with Bama, I don't want anything, if I can help it, made in China.

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Postby kiwani » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:14 pm

Here are just two of the many pharmaceutical grade glucosamine formulas for dogs. One of these carries the NASC 'seal of quality' (National Animal Supplement Council), and the other is a 'natural' formula. I've looked at other brands marked with the NASC seal of quality, and some included ingredients that I wouldn't want, such as artificial flavor. You basically have to go over the product's detailed ingredients list, choose according to your standards, and contact the manufacturer if need be.


InflamAway ES (KR Natural)

http://www.smartpakcanine.com/ProductCl ... egory=true


Hip & Joint (Nutri-Vet)

http://www.smartpakcanine.com/ProductCl ... egory=true

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Postby debraschow » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:53 pm

I want to ask a question here, cause I am trying to do things a lilttle different this time. I have used glucosamin, chondrointin with older dogs, and I am feeding Milo a combo of 1 cup of Nutro Lamb and Rice, which contains, glucosamine and chondroitin and also 1 cup of Hunden Flochen 2 times a day. Should I use a supplement in a two year old dog that shows no issues? Can it be used as a preventative. Hobo at 13 had no arthritis issues and had been on Nutro for 11.5 years.
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Postby threedogjeep » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:13 pm

There has been discussion about levels of glucosamine needed for results. I have read that at least 1000 mg is needed.
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Postby kiwani » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:27 am

Re: "I have read that at least 1000 mg is needed"

There are various strength formulas: mild, moderate, severe. Generally, people have started the supplements when joint problems were already obvious. The body is capable of creating its own glucosamine, but it loses an important building block when there is increased stress, other health problems, surgery, etc. We've discussed some of this in the threads on glutamine. Glutamine plays an important role in the body, and it's also a building block of glucosamine. You have to look at the overall health picture of your Chow, including nutrition, to determine initial dosage strength.

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Postby bama » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:43 pm

I think there are many differing opinions about which form of glucosamine is best, so I'll not get into that.
However, I want to mention if you use glucosamine HCI, there will be better absorption if it is mixed with glucosamine sulfate. Glucosamine sulfate can be givin alone. No matter how it is taken, manganese helps overall absorption of glucosamine.

***Read the lables carefully...
look out for glucosamine that is sourced from green lipped mussels, containing creatine, especially if your dog has any kind of kidney failure.
I haven't read the label of SynoviG3 (glucosamine), but I believe it may contain the green lipped mussel and creatine?
Anyway, a dog in renal failure can not tolerate increased creatine levels.

For advanced joint pain, you may want to ask your vet about sub-Q injections of Cartrophen. Adequan is another injectable treatment, however it is more painful than Cartrophen, because it is injected into the muscle.
Results are going to vary with each dog. One dog may do better than another with the same treatment.
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