Vitamins and Supplements

An archive of the best and most helpful nutrition, diet and food related topics.
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Princess
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Vitamins and Supplements

Postby Princess » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:08 pm

Hello Everyone,
Sorry to ask the same question for the millionth time, but i have tried to read all the threads about this but i'm still confused.. :oops:
Understandably human grade supplements are better for our chowdren then pet store stuff.. And organic health food store supplements better then pharmaceutical stuff, right Kiwani?

So, Gabbana is about 10 months old now and I was think about giving her Glucosamine/chondritin and fish oil. My question is how much should I give, I know that there are different quantities you can buy? should I just follow the same dose that they recommend for people? As Gabs is young and hasn't shown any joint issues, am I too early on doing this? Is it possible to give too much? Any other vitamins that I should be considering?
What about the raw eggs? what do they do and how often should I give those?
I am currently feeding Science diet puppy :oops: , but soon switching to nutro or Eagle Pack, haven't decided yet (Solid gold is impossible to find here and is unreliable to obtain) :lol:

Thank you again for all your help, really don't mean to ask the same question just don't want to do bad by trying to do good..

Olga

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kiwani
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Postby kiwani » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:37 am

Re: "Understandably human grade supplements are better for our chowdren then pet store stuff.. And organic health food store supplements better then pharmaceutical stuff, right Kiwani"?

Human grade supplements have better ingredient safety regulations, than animal quality supplements do, unless the animal supplements are rated 'pharmaceutical grade' or 'human grade'.

For example, there are various *quality* levels of glucosamine supplement, some have poorer grade of glucosmine, some have a lot of filler and less potency, some have a lot of sodium, etc. The 'pharmaceutical-grade' glucosamine is considered the best quality range for therapeutic effect.

The 'human-grade' or 'pharmaceutical-grade' omega-3 fish oil is filtered for toxins like mercury, and doesn't have harmful preservatives. For example, we've discussed that the "Grizzly" brand of salmon oil for dogs contains a preservative which isn't allowed for human use because it's considered a digestive irritant, while the "Timberwolf Organics" salmon oil for dogs didn't contain that preservative. You have to research the complete ingredients list of products to really know what you're giving your Chow.

Some dog vitamins are really cheaper grade and sometimes more toxic 'cattle vitamins'. Those might be ok for cows used for slaughter, but not ok for dogs.

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Postby kiwani » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:19 am

Re: "Is it possible to give too much?"

Yes, because even the glucosamine can be an irritant. The body makes its own glucosamine, so it's important to feed the best quality and variety of foods, especially in the first six months when about 80% of the body is being built. The body needs a *healthy balance* between the types of fats which *increase* inflammation, and those which *lower* inflammation, because the immune-system needs to raise inflammation levels sometimes.

It's important not to feed low quality foods and treats, which are high in inflammatory ingredients. It's important not to stress the joints in growing Chows with excessive exercise especially on hard surfaces, jumping, 'body-slam' playing, etc.

If you provide quality and variety of foods, you shouldn't be concerned about supplements, unless there are health problems involved. Fish is very important for brain and eye development, and for healthy skin. If you want to avoid having to deal with hot-spots, be sure to include fish and greens in your Chow's diet.

I wouldn't feed raw eggs, but some here do. I choose free-range eggs for higher omega-3 value. Each pup is an individual, and some *crave* fish and eggs more often than others do, especially during the first five months or so when they have the *biggest* growth surge. You basically have to become an expert of your own Chow, watch the development, and make adjustments if you see any problems.

Best wishes.

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Postby willowchow » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:11 pm

Two things--Can someone point me to the discussion about the Grizzly Salmon oil containing an ingredient that irritates the stomach?

Also, aren't you also supposed to use Vitamin E when you use fish oil?? :?:
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Postby Princess » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Hello willowchow

The link for that post is

http://www.chowchow.org/forum/viewtopic ... d987f2b466

not sure if the link will work, but the subject of the post is "coat question"

Olga

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Postby kiwani » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:10 pm

Re: "about the Grizzly Salmon oil containing an ingredient that irritates the stomach?"

The online detailed ingredients for the Grizzly oil include the additive 'propyl gallate'. That ingredient is linked with a blood disorder and can be a gastric and skin irritant, so it's kept out of infant/children food. As for the vitamin E question, the fish oils are usually preserved with vitamin E, and when you include whole grains, eggs, greens, etc., in the diet, your Chow will be getting vitamin E.

Since Olga was kind enough to find the old thread, I just want to mention again that the information included there about feeding coffee/coffee grounds is unhealthful. Dogs don't metabolize coffee the same as people do, that's why dogs have problems with chocolate too, since both are in the same family of chemicals.
Using coffee to make a coat shiny is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. It strips essential fatty acids from the body, where they are needed, and dumps them on the coat.
Instead of robbing the body with coffee to make a coat shine, provide enough essential fatty acids for overall health.

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Postby chowfrnd88 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:49 pm

This is a great thread.

Kiwani, I wish I could go grocery shopping for Special with you at my side! :D

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Postby willowchow » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:45 pm

Thank you! I use Wild Alaskan Salmon oil which is made by the same company that makes the Grizzly Salmon oil. It's just the oil and rosemary extract, that's it.

Thank you for the information I will stay away from that ingredient in the future though.
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Postby kiwani » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:53 am

Re: "I use Wild Alaskan Salmon oil which is made by the same company that makes the Grizzly Salmon oil. It's just the oil and rosemary extract, that's it."

When I was researching the "Grizzley" version, I came across many sites listing *only* rosemary extract as the preservative, until I found the sites listing the full ingredients, including the "additives". Check further to make sure. It just may be that all dispenser-type bottles of oil contain the anti-rancidity ingredient (propyl gallate). That's why I prefer the sealed capsules or canned salmon, canned sardines, etc.

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Postby kiwani » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:09 am

Re: Kiwani, I wish I could go grocery shopping for Special with you at my side!"

Let's rent a bus and all go shopping with Chows along for the ride! Stick to the brands with a reputation for quality, and research unfamiliar ingredients. We already know that food corporation junk is dumped into animal feeds, but we don't have to support those products.

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Postby willowchow » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:03 am

Thank you Kiwani--I will definately try to find further information on the product. It's unreal that they don't have to list everything that's in the bottle, what if she had allergies??

PS--I definately want to be on the bus full of chows! :D

:?: PS again--Kiwani, do you know what the difference is between the Wild Alaskan Salmon oil and the Grizzly Salmon oil? They are both made by the same company. I could never find anything on it.
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Postby kiwani » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:57 am

Re: "It's unreal that they don't have to list everything that's in the bottle, what if she had allergies?"

I've read that pet food companies are only starting to comply with the federal label law already in effect.


Re: "do you know what the difference is between the Wild Alaskan Salmon oil and the Grizzly Salmon oil? They are both made by the same company. I could never find anything on it."

I researched "Grizzly Pet Products" and their link to 'Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil' just takes you to the Grizzly Salmon Oil page. I think it's the same product, because I was unable to find anything else. If you do a search on Grizzly and propyl gallate, you'll get sites revealing the full ingredients list.

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Postby chowfrnd88 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:33 am

OMG, I wish we really could do that, can you imagine people's faces when we're all on board a bus full of the fuzziest, cutest pups ever!

It really is so scary that they don't have to list everything on the label. That is too frightening, I didn't even know until recently that it's way for pet foods. I like the idea of the canned slamon or canned sardines. I'll try that too. Kiwani, would giving Special canned salmon or canned sardine once a week be too much coupled with his solid gold (which is still the wolf king)?

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Postby Auddymay » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:14 pm

My husband used to eat sardines :-x Disgusting little fish! I could see him getting all jealous if I got them for the girls...lol.

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Postby chowfrnd88 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:32 pm

Actually I just re-read something you said earlier in this thread kiwani, so based on his current diet I really wouldn't need to give Special extra fish as often as once a week, is that correct?

BTW, I cook Eggland's Best just for Special, I tell my husband "no, those are Special's eggs" :D :D :D :D when he reaches into the fridge for eggs.

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Postby Sharons Chows » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:39 pm

Katalin,

I can't believe that your husband can't share Special's Egglands!!! I am really laughing. Don't you think that your husband needs to watch his cholesterol also????
I can just see Special with his eggs. BTW...JR and Cheyenne get a "regular" egg once a week...I scramble one egg each in the microwave.

And I thought that JR and Cheyenne were really, really spoiled. Alan shares his tuna and sardines with them a few times a week...it is a ritual around here. They also get fishskin when we have salmon or trout...they go crazy for fishskin!!!

Oh well...it seems that we are not the only "fruitcakes" around this Chow site!! Can you imagine us all going into someplace like Costco's with a busload of Chows...the meat, fish and chicken department would never be the same again...that is if they survived a band of our fuzzie wuzzies gorging through the merchandise!!!

Sharon

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Postby kingalls » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:11 pm

:oops: I pick up chicken thighs and Omega-3 at Costco for my two...one time a guy commented when I was putting the chicken in my cart "I love chicken thighs, too - it's the best part"...I didn't tell him it was for my Chowdren :lol:
We boil organic eggs and give them the egg yolks - they love it...
Karen, Kohana, Takoda, and our Chow Angels Nahkohe and Shiloh

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Postby threedogjeep » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:43 am

What about raw eggs? And shouldn't mercury from canned fishes be a concern?
Twelve Paws UP!!
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Postby kiwani » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:20 am

Re: "I wish we really could do that, can you imagine people's faces when we're all on board a bus full of the fuzziest, cutest pups ever!"

I thought it would make a good reality show, Chow-Chow-Shoppers! :lol:

We'd go to interesting outdoor green-markets, fish and Asian speciality food markets, visit the headquarters of holistic dog food companies, free-range poultry farms, bison range farms, dog-spas, natural medicine healers, etc. :wink:

Re: "so based on his current diet I really wouldn't need to give Special extra fish as often as once a week, is that correct?"


It depends on how much of meat based treats or other 'dog treats' are also included. If he doesn't have any skin/itch problems, you don't have to increase the fish in his diet. I haven't had any problem offering some fish 2 to 3 times a week, plus seaweed, in addition to the Solid Gold. When their coats are at their best, they'll sparkle like prisms in sunlight.

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Postby kiwani » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:38 am

Re: "shouldn't mercury from canned fishes be a concern?"

Certain kinds of fish, like sardines and wild salmon, are considered lower risks for mercury, while farmed salmon is considered higher risk for PCB's. Certain cuts of tuna are higher mercury risks than other types of tuna flesh.

If you offer canned fish, make sure it's 'sodium free'.

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Postby chowfrnd88 » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:10 pm

Thanks Kiwani! I love it, "Chow Chow Shoppers!!" :D That would be sooooo great.

Sharon, :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :D :D . You're right, I do think hubby also needs to watch his cholesterol. :D You're also right about the grocery store surviving, it would be so super cute.

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Postby Princess » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:00 pm

I've actually heard a story on the news about a study done about mercury in tuna i believe it was. And the research group said that the amounts of mercury in it were negligable (sp.) and consuming tuna is better overall for your health even with potential for mercury then not consuming it at all. those were human studies but i'm just passing on the message.

I've very undecided on the food I should chose for Gabbana. I'm taking her off science diet and have a choice between Nurto and Eagle... she's pretty picky, do you guys think that it would be a wise choice to maybe buy a small bag of each and put some in separate bowls and let her choose on her own? or am I completely nuts :shock: ?
Gabbana also doesn't eat veggies, except for the ones in her science diet for now, (but neither do I, well what do you expect, i'm 22 and eat well pretty much crap), but i've tried giving her fruits and veggies when I eat them and she smells them and walks away, sometimes she'll take them in her mouth and then drop it. Any suggestions what veggies I should give and how should I prepare them?

Again sorry with the same questions...
Olga :)

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Postby bama » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:56 pm

Lots of good info here already, I just want to add this note.

FYI: For my rescued doggie patients, I recommend purchasing nutrients separately in ground powder form at the health food store to make my own "pet vitamins" according to each dog's needs. I don't recommend this route for others, but I strongly recommend human grade nutritional supplements from the health food store for your pets. Unless your dog has specific needs, a "one a day" type is good enough, as long as you are feeding a nutritionally fortified diet on a daily basis.
I prefer "organic whole foods" supplements as opposed to "natural" or pharmacutial brands, due to the different nutritional sources and processing. Yes, there is a difference between "natural" and "organic".
*Pet vitamins are usually packaged with poor sources of nutrients, such as Calcium carbonate derived from dolomite, which contains some lead. Calcium derived from coral is the best source for optimal absorption.
Most times in pet vitamins, the B-vitamins are supplied by yeast, which some dogs are allergic to.
And the list goes on...
Hopefully, you get the picture.

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Postby kiwani » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: "I prefer "organic whole foods" supplements as opposed to "natural" or pharmacutial brands..."

Pharmaceutical *brands* are not the same thing as the pharmaceutical *grade* being discussed in this thread.

Pharmaceutical *grade* is the highest sanitary production standard and certified for safety, purity, quality, and therapeutic effect.

The next lower standard is human grade, which can range from various levels of quality, potency and purity, from discount pharmacy brand names to health shop brands. The terms organic or natural don't guarantee safety, sanitation, purity, therapeutic effect, etc.

The next lower standard is feed grade quality for animal use.

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Postby Red Dragon » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:21 am

Kiwani, I use Grizzly Salmon Oil and have seen no problems with it, in fact it served it's purpose very well in that it took away any itch the dog had and made for some beautiful coats. Could it be that the ingrediant you mentioned, "propyl gallate" is only a problem in human babies because their digestive system has not developed?

I think people worry too much about a lot of this, I have seen many Chows live on complete junk for food and live 12-15 years, then others get only the best and don't make it past 6-8 years old. It all comes down to genetics, and when I look at dogs to breed with I look at how long the relatives lived. I use one line for breeding that consistantly the dogs live in the 12-15 year range, these are heavy type dogs too, the line has even had them live up to 18 years old, that is the oldest Chow I have ever seen. These dogs are fed food that you all say is horrible, and they are completely healthy and have beautiful coats.

There are a bunch of companies out there that prey on people looking for a solution to their dogs health problems through the use of magical food, breeding healthy dogs is the solution, not the food. Think about it.
Sam

Keeper of the furry things...Master of the kibble....Scooper of the poo!


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