Teaching bite inhibition

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Victory
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Postby Victory » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:23 am

Sometimes you have to switch from "ow" to "NO!" and change your response a bit. And you have to be very attentive, if she is near you and reaches with an open mouth, you say, "NO!" if she continues you put her in her crate and ignore her. Also you have praise when she does it right, when she approaches and just licks or allows you to pet her with no mouthing, you praise her a lot.

A trainer if she/he is good can help with this. And Melanie's site has more info on this.
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Postby grendel » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:57 pm

Mocha is doing great, we are going to puppy training classes. More for the socialization but also to learn the "new" accepted way of training - WAY different then when I looped the choke collar on my lab puppy almost 20 years ago (gosh has it really been that long since I was a teen :-)

She actually surprises me with how fast she learns each new "trick" or behavior - I was thinking she was way too stubborn but once I did it exactly as the trainer recommended she responded to each behavior within minutes wonderfully. She actually is one of the shining stars of polite behavior - I see all these "cute" small puppies and 3 or 4 golden retriever pups and they are all nuts (compared to Mocha:-) She really is making me proud of her behavior in that setting:

However - Nipping has been driving us nuts! The poor 3 year old just is left crying if she gets too playful, the 5 year old is starting to understand that he CANNOT let her play with her mouth on his skin. We try Yipping - eeking, Noing, all to no avail she just takes it as part of the game - My favorite sweatchirt and my wifes favorite shirt have holes in them from her teeth catching. I'm so glad I found this forum page. I'll try removing her faster from a situation she is doing an improper behavior instead of waiting until we have to yell and drag her away - I'll also try to spray bottle - we have one around here somewhere we use to spray the kids heads with to brush their hair in the AM.

The thing is she is fine with me all day but when the kids and wife get home she loves all over them and it includes putting her teeth on them and yanking the loose sleeve , the loose pant leg, etc etc It hurts or is frustrating and yipping has no effect. I can see her getting put in her crate Every Day at 3pm and then at 5: 30 first when my son comes home and then when my wife and littlest come in.

Anyway - I'll keep reading and try to have more patience - I am walking her every night and sometimes in the AM.

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Postby Victory » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:31 pm

When she nips or mouths do your wife and kids push her away at all? I ask because that she can think that is part of the game. A better thing would be to cross your arms over your chest, so that she can't reach them, look at her sternly and say, "no biting" when she calms down, then slowly lower your arms to pet her, if she opens her mouth, still your arms and say "no biting" If she continues after that, pick her up remove her to her crate and ignore her for 10+ minutes. And I'd make it 10+ minutes of quiet, not barking and whinning to get out and play.

I know it's hard with small children but the five yearold should be old enough to learn and if the 3 yearold copies him, it should work. Using the command instead of the yipping might work better for the kids as well, as it empowers them and prevents them from sounding like squeaky toys, which I'll bet she's not afraid of at all.

Another thing you might try is having the wife and kids not greet her when they first come home, until she is calm. (I know this one is hard) but when she's wound up she'll be more likely to approach open mouthed.
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Yes we are providing Positive Reinforcers

Postby grendel » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:24 pm

Just got done reading some pages re: Operant Learning

Interestingly enough my Undergrad degree was in Psychology - I recall hearing all this before - I just needed a refresher.

We are doing too much interaction with her - that she is seeing as part of the game, pushing, yelling and pushing, trying to kick our feet away from her (which she then has to chase). That seems to be the main cause the behavior isn't reducing.

Everyone indicates the ultimate behavior for us as a negative punishment (removing the wanted thing to reduce the behavior if I got my terms right) is crossing the arms and turning away. All that gets us to date is nipped feet, socks, pant legs. and everything that can still be reached on the kids (the whole body). SO the pushing is out, hitting has always been out but, certainly seemed like a valid Positive Punisher at times. That leaves a spray bottle (filled with H2O?) (Postive Pun)and putting in crate everytime she nips after we sternly say NO Bite (Neg. Pun).

Thanks for the tips. We'll work more on this and see how it goes.

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Postby sit_by_the_beach » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:34 am

I don't have much experience when it comes to dog behaviour. Some of my friends do. One friend and family just returned from a trip of eastern europe, Finland, Hungary and former Yogoslavia, sorry don't know what it's called now. Their relatives over there own dogs, they don't tend to make such a fuss over dogs. Visitors come in, the dog is told 'sit'. Seems like the humans are more important, pets don't get the attention as in north america or western europe. My friends tell me that the dogs are well cared for, but seem more independant, mature. Their opinion seems to be about kids too. More mature, not as spoiled as north american and the rest of the european continent. I thought it was an interesting.

I would take the chow in question and take him out for a walk before the kids, wife come home. Let him go for a good run, then return home, keep the dog on a leash, let the dog sniff, greet everyone and then told to sit and stay. I ugess it looks good on paper, but little difficult to implement. Karin
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Postby kiwani » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:25 am

Re: "That leaves a spray bottle (filled with H2O?) (Postive Pun)and putting in crate everytime she nips after we sternly say NO Bite (Neg. Pun)."

I would spritz hands, sleeves, etc., with vinegar. The odor is pretty much of a repellent to dogs, and the taste is even more so. Do *not* spray the pup in the face with vinegar though, because it will sting the eyes. Rather than crating the pup for nippy behavior, offer an *outlet* for all that excitable stress chemistry. Give the pup newspapers, cardboard rolls, etc., to shred. Stress chemistry (adrenaline, excitement, etc.) has to be *discharged* by some *activity*, and chewing/shredding/licking is one way that dogs *discharge* that chemistry when they aren't exercised enough. There can be no calming *bite inhibition* chemistry when stress hormones build up, because those two brain chemistries oppose each other. You can't have much learning take place when a dog's stress chemistry is engaged either. Diet is important as well, to keep blood sugar steady with no mood swings, etc.

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Postby Victory » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:07 pm

Another reason why teaching bite inhibition is so important. There is a husky puppy in my neighborhood, the owner is a nice young guy with some experience with dogs, but not a lot. The puppy is about 2 weeks younger than my Dreamdancer and just about the same size, he's a little shorter, but a bit longer. Anyway, we've known him since he was very very small and he's a good dog, just very energetic, (like most huskies). Last night we met up with the two of them and the dogs were playing, when the husky puppy decided to jump up and grab my hand to get me to pay attention to me. He's about 7 months old, full set of adult teeth and though he didn't grab hard he did nip, which hurt through my insulated leather gloves. I just said ouch, he'd already released my hand but he did look a bit contrite at my excalamation.

The puppy nips a lot according to his owner, he has no bite inhibition. He didn't break the skin through my glove, but with out the glove he might have. Now I won't turn a dog or their owner in for that behavior I'll just be more alert around the dog. But someone else may and in Minneapolis there is a no tolerance rule about dogs who bite and a bite is anything that breaks the skin, even a very, small itty bitty wound. The first incident requires the dog to be labeled as dangerous and it must be muzzled at all times outside of the home, the second incidendence if there is one, results in the dog being put to sleep. Many cities are adobting laws like this, so teaching bite inhibition is extrememly important. A puppy that nips is not cute, what it is doing could cost the puppy it's life and such a thing is not necessary if the puppy is properly trained.
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HELP!!

Postby cheriekynb » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:50 pm

Hello all, my Chow, Sid is just about 9 months old. I've tried everything to get him to stop nipping. The funny thing is that I'M the only one he nips. It's almost like PINCHING instead of actually biting. It always happens when we're playing and he's usually grabbing for my clothes.
He doesn't nibble at the Vet. I use the groomer that works at the Vet's office ans she LOVES Sid, she says that he is the best Chow! She doesn't have to muzzle him and he lets her come him out without a bit of trouble.
I tried: Time Outs, saying OW (That just drives him crazy and he starts running around the house, he thinks it's a game) I tried ignoring him, EVERYTHING! OH, even pinning him to the ground and saying "settle"...
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.......... I realize he's just playing gut this is ridiculous! :-L Tonight I just kept telling him to go lie down, which he did..
Sigh..
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Postby Victory » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:35 pm

Don't use "Ow" if he thinks it's a game. (Actually I have never used "Ow" for anything, unless it was a realy "Ow" and that is always followed by a very, very firm "NO" and a nice long time out as well the only exception to this is if they step on my feet, that is the only physical pain I'll tolerate from my chows easily)

And timeouts for chows work better if it means isolation, put him in his crate and go where he can't see you for a bit. If he doesn't have a crate, put him in a room, tell him to lay down, close the door and leave him for a bit, if there is no other room use the bathroom.

Also you want to watch him to see when he is getting too wound up during play and stop it before he begins to grap at you. Also I'd recommend that you don't rough house with your chow, I never rough house with my chows, I'll play throw the ball for them, we do petting and I'll tease to make them dance, but I don't rough house.

see if some of these things will help.
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Postby cheriekynb » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:34 pm

Thank you so much! I will give it a try. It didn't even dawn on me that I really shouldn't be playing "rough" with Sid. He's just so darn cute. :) We do play a LOT. Thanks again!
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Postby Victory » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:55 pm

cheriekynb wrote:Thank you so much! I will give it a try. It didn't even dawn on me that I really shouldn't be playing "rough" with Sid. He's just so darn cute. :) We do play a LOT. Thanks again!


Actually rough housing, (wrestling, playing keep the toy away) and tug of war between a human and the canine is not recommended for any of the "aggressive", (I prefer assertive) breeds. It encourages them to challenge your status as alph, and sometimes they win the match which completely puts you on the bottom in rank. At the very least it shouldn't be done until their bite inhibition is firmly and trustfully in place.

Remember you're trying to get them to recognize that they should at least pause before going after a person, any person. And by teaching them that even mouthing is forbidden you instill that pause.
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Postby cheriekynb » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:04 pm

Victory wrote: and tug of war between a human and the canine is not recommended for any of the "aggressive", (I prefer assertive) breeds. It encourages them to challenge your status as alph, and sometimes they win the match which completely puts you on the bottom in rank.


Oh my.. Sid loves to play tug of war. I will throw his rope, tied up sock or stuffed octopus across the room or yard. He brings it back to me and tosses his head at me until I take it. He then shakes his head trying to get it and I say "leave it".. he lets go and I toss it again.. That will go on for a while, then he gets bored.
Now I'm going to have to re-think our whole game. The funny thing is he NEVER puts his mouth on me while we're playing that game.

Thank you for all the info!
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Postby Victory » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:44 pm

If he's letting go when you say "leave it' that's fine, in fact it's excellent. It's when people actually have to pull it away from them that it gets tricky.
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Postby cheriekynb » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:41 pm

Victory wrote:If he's letting go when you say "leave it' that's fine, in fact it's excellent. It's when people actually have to pull it away from them that it gets tricky.


Aw, THANKS! Some things Sid learned QUICK and some things he just REFUSES to do.. like STAY!!! Sid even knows what "bed-time" means... or "Go to bed".. COME and STAY.. EGAD!! I though I was stubborn!! My Mom teases me and say it's more like "who can be more obstinate".. (We're both pretty stubborn individuals) 8)

We're actually taking our first Behavior Training Class next Wednesday. My Vet office (I brag about them in most of my posts) has a dog behaviorist on staff. He's a (an) RVT Animal Behaviorist with 19 years experience. LOL.. I had him do a puppy evaluation when Sid was about 4 months old. He said "Sid is a pusher".. NO DUH!! LOL.. Anyways, it should be very interesting and a LOT of fun! :)
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Postby Victory » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:24 pm

cheriekynb wrote:
Victory wrote:If he's letting go when you say "leave it' that's fine, in fact it's excellent. It's when people actually have to pull it away from them that it gets tricky.


Aw, THANKS! Some things Sid learned QUICK and some things he just REFUSES to do.. like STAY!!! Sid even knows what "bed-time" means... or "Go to bed".. COME and STAY.. EGAD!! I though I was stubborn!! My Mom teases me and say it's more like "who can be more obstinate".. (We're both pretty stubborn individuals) 8)

We're actually taking our first Behavior Training Class next Wednesday. My Vet office (I brag about them in most of my posts) has a dog behaviorist on staff. He's a (an) RVT Animal Behaviorist with 19 years experience. LOL.. I had him do a puppy evaluation when Sid was about 4 months old. He said "Sid is a pusher".. NO DUH!! LOL.. Anyways, it should be very interesting and a LOT of fun! :)


:lol: :lol: I have said for years that one of the rules for having a chow is that the human has to be more stubborn than the chow. It's the reason for all the strong opinions on this site, I'll bet there isn't a single push-over on this site! Every chow "pushes" the trick is to push back in the correct way, because they don't take to some kinds of pushing. I think you and Sid are doing excellently, he's a puppy and you're learning as well. Just keep it up and remember, persistence, patience and respect are the three keys to haveing a well behaved chow.
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Postby Jeff&Peks » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:02 pm

"We're actually taking our first Behavior Training Class next Wednesday. My Vet office (I brag about them in most of my posts) has a dog behaviorist on staff. He's a (an) RVT Animal Behaviorist with 19 years experience. LOL.. I had him do a puppy evaluation when Sid was about 4 months old. He said "Sid is a pusher".. NO DUH!! LOL.. Anyways, it should be very interesting and a LOT of fun!"


Just my opinion and how I would take it, When a trainer uses words like "pusher" to me that's a dog is a dog terminology, I would keep a close eye on what type of interaction your Chow and this trainer have, If the trainer (not the Chow) is being to aggressive I would move on.

For those that insist a Chow is a Dog read back about the nightmares people have had with trainers and Chows, It has taken them months or years to undo the damage a trainer has done thinking a dog is a dog.
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Postby cheriekynb » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:18 am

Victory wrote:
cheriekynb wrote:
Victory wrote:If he's letting go when you say "leave it' that's fine, in fact it's excellent. It's when people actually have to pull it away from them that it gets tricky.


Aw, THANKS! Some things Sid learned QUICK and some things he just REFUSES to do.. like STAY!!! Sid even knows what "bed-time" means... or "Go to bed".. COME and STAY.. EGAD!! I though I was stubborn!! My Mom teases me and say it's more like "who can be more obstinate".. (We're both pretty stubborn individuals) 8)

We're actually taking our first Behavior Training Class next Wednesday. My Vet office (I brag about them in most of my posts) has a dog behaviorist on staff. He's a (an) RVT Animal Behaviorist with 19 years experience. LOL.. I had him do a puppy evaluation when Sid was about 4 months old. He said "Sid is a pusher".. NO DUH!! LOL.. Anyways, it should be very interesting and a LOT of fun! :)


:lol: :lol: I have said for years that one of the rules for having a chow is that the human has to be more stubborn than the chow. It's the reason for all the strong opinions on this site, I'll bet there isn't a single push-over on this site! Every chow "pushes" the trick is to push back in the correct way, because they don't take to some kinds of pushing. I think you and Sid are doing excellently, he's a puppy and you're learning as well. Just keep it up and remember, persistence, patience and respect are the three keys to haveing a well behaved chow.


Victory, sometimes I wish I lived closer to the people I talk to on this site!! You all have such great wisdom and advice! My first Chow was a female and SO TYPICAL Chow-like!! She ONLY wanted attention when SHE wanted it. Sid, however, is an "attention pig.".. Honestly, I hope he doesn't outgrow it. The people in my area just THINK they know about Chows and I keep hearing stuff like.. "His disposition will change" or "Oh, a Chow, why did you get him".. stuff like that.. I just consider the source and go on my merry way.. (The stubborn girl that I am).. HA HA HA HA HA!!!
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Postby cheriekynb » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:27 am

Jeff&Peks wrote:"We're actually taking our first Behavior Training Class next Wednesday. My Vet office (I brag about them in most of my posts) has a dog behaviorist on staff. He's a (an) RVT Animal Behaviorist with 19 years experience. LOL.. I had him do a puppy evaluation when Sid was about 4 months old. He said "Sid is a pusher".. NO DUH!! LOL.. Anyways, it should be very interesting and a LOT of fun!"


Just my opinion and how I would take it, When a trainer uses words like "pusher" to me that's a dog is a dog terminology, I would keep a close eye on what type of interaction your Chow and this trainer have, If the trainer (not the Chow) is being to aggressive I would move on.

For those that insist a Chow is a Dog read back about the nightmares people have had with trainers and Chows, It has taken them months or years to undo the damage a trainer has done thinking a dog is a dog.


Thanks! I value EVERYONE'S opinion and thoughts and ideas on this site! I will DEFINITELY keep an "eye" on this trainer. He seems to be "tough" to me but gentle at the same time. The first time he saw Sid, he sat on the floor and had me sit across the room and just let Sid roam the room. Sid would walk up to him, let him pet him for a minute or two then walk away. This went on for about 15 minutes. He (the behaviorist) actually fitted and put the "Gentle Leader" on Sid the first time. When ever Sid put his paw up, the behaviorist would say, VERY CALMLY, "Paw down".. would take Sid's paw and put in on the floor. I was impressed. He told me that he actually will take people's pets home with him (if the pet's parents allow it) to break really BAD habits! I don't think I could EVER do that!! (too paranoid).. LOL..
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uh oh!

Postby socialwork555 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:06 am

Hello
Gordo likes to wrestle and when he does it he DOES play bite, and I had no idea that this was such a bad habit to get into. I guess we just thought it was cute and playful, but on occasion he HAS left bruises, although I haven't made a big deal about it---I am a tough girl when it comes to that. So when we play, he can only play with his shoulders and his legs?

Anyway, he's seven years old. We did have a biting problem the first week we got him--he went after my little cat and in order to save her life I put my hand in to push her out of the corner and crunch---a few hours later the surgeon was sewing the tip of my finger back on. I don't know if he realized what he did-----he was in this crazy zone that I hope I never see again.

It's not too late to train him not to play in this way? Even though we've been doing it all along?

By the way, Gordo has gotten less nutty about the cats, but still not ok to bring them together. Has anyone successfully integrated a chow with a cat who the Chow wanted to eat for dinner? I see him calming down a lot with my big fat cat Snowy----but with Greenley he ALWAYS gets hightened arousal and sees her as nothing but PREY (how can he see his sister in such a way I just don'tknow)

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Troy does sound tricky

Postby socialwork555 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:19 am

I have been reading your responses to Troys owner, and Troy does seem kind of special........a chow who is that needy?

My Gordo is awesome, but my biggest complaint is that he needs too much space (he won't sit next to me on the couch, won't sleep on the bed at my feet, doesn't like too close for too long, didn't give direct eye contact for months)

I would never suggest that you give up on him, but I do have to admit that there's something to be said for a good dog/ownder matchup, and I am not sure that your needs match with Troys. If I had a dog like that, that clinginess that annoys you so much would meet all of my needs for connectedness, and make me more able to perservere through the rest of the training milestones.

So yes I really do sympathize for you that perhaps it wasn't the best match in terms of what you need from your dog and what your dog needs from you. Time and resources are limited and if he does need more than you can give him then I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to find a better match for him.

Good luck!
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Re: Teaching bite inhibition

Postby chowfrnd88 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:49 pm

Christine, nope, it's never too late! :D I once had a 13 yr old blind dog in one of my training classes and she did fantastic. :D
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Re: Teaching bite inhibition

Postby shannlee379 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:13 am

I had to start bite inhibition right away. Once Shelby started to warm up and give kisses, she found my hoop earings. I have three in each ear and almost had none in one ear. She was kissing my cheak and started to climb on my shoulders to lay on the back of the couch and she found my earings. Since then I was wondering if I was doing it right.

Thanks for posting this, now I know how to stop the biting and not let her mouth. I had been telling her no bite when she grassed me while playing and while I am walking she has been grabbing my paint leg as I pass her, but did not know about not giving attention afterwards. Thanks.
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Re: Teaching bite inhibition

Postby max5105 » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:17 am

Thanks for the post. Misiu tends to get a little nippy now and then, mostly when he gets excited playing, but not always. I have tried to dissuade him firmly, but I think my son lets him chew on his hand when I am not around. I have to stress this with everyone once again.

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Re: Teaching bite inhibition

Postby bevgo » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:15 am

Thanks so much for the information. I have been doing some things right with my new puppy but not all. She is very mouthy and likes to nip. She is 12 wks and I thought this was very normal puppy behavior but have been saying no bite in a firm tone each time. I have young grandkids and don't want them to be hurt accidently by a puppy and its very sharp teeth. I did not know about the no attention thing though so will add that. No it is NOT agression just playing.

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Re: Teaching bite inhibition

Postby RouxTheLabChow » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:15 pm

I feel for the lady with Troy. To have no help and be physically exhausted/healing, is more than a challenge. It sounds she is doing the best she can. Roux had no manners when we got her from the SPCA 6 yrs ago. SHe is a lab-chow mix -- It just takes time and committment and patience. Have you ever read Cesar Milan books? That is really true that they need to see you as a leader. Can you make Troy sit before he gets fed? That seems to put a dog's attitude in the right place. Just hang in there -- you are doing the best you can and it sounds like you rescued Troy from a bad previous life.


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