Health Cert question/answer

[IliamnasQuest]

She looks so happy and so excited I was thinking about her while brushing my teeth this morning. Do you mean only 6 chows in the whole country have this many certifications??? That's wild! Go Khana! What does that mean for if you ever do decide to breed her? How will you be able to find a good sire for her pups?

I wanted to start a new thread on this - some of us will be interested in it, and those who aren't can just ignore it! *L*

chowfrnd asked the questions above and I'd like to talk about the health certs some more. All of the information can be found on the Orthopedic Foundation of Animals website (http://www.offa.org).

Some background first: the OFA works in conjunction with a couple of other health registries, like CERF (Canine Eye Registry Foundation) and CHIC (Canine Health Information Center). CERF shares their results with OFA so that the eye results can be listed along with all the other health certifications. CHIC compiles a listing of dogs that complete a designated number of health tests - the dogs don't have to pass the tests, they just have to have them done. The idea is to open up the lines of communications by encouraging breeders to show what is in their dogs (passing or not). This way people know what they're getting into.

The parent clubs (for the chow, that would be the Chow Chow Club, Inc.) are the ones that recommend which tests are required for each breed in order to receive a listing on the CHIC website. I believe the chows used to only require hips, elbows and eyes - but the current list is hips, elbows, eyes, patellas and thyroid. These five tests must be done in order for a chow to receive a CHIC number. The cardiac exam is not required for this - it's an "extra" test done by a few breeders.

If you go to the CHIC website and search chows, you'll get a listing of just 31 dogs. That's the full listing of chows who have done the tests required. That's not very many, is it? And of those 31 dogs, five have passed all six health tests and one more has passed the five tests now required. There are a few who have failed a test (but still get the CHIC number as they did the required testing). The majority of the dogs listed were done before CHIC included patellas and thyroid and so they only have hips/elbows/eyes done.

Now what does this all mean? Well, in part it means that there are way too many chow breeders out there who aren't bothering to health test their dogs. And, of course, it's a "buyer beware" market. Falling for a cute face is a huge mistake but it happens all the time. Breeders depend on that. Many breeders don't want to know if their dogs have a genetic health issue - if they knew it, then maybe their conscience would bother them a bit more. So they just don't test and instead say "well, my dogs seem healthy".

Another factor in the lack of full testing is that some of the health certs are fairly new in the chow world - or at least, were not that common until more recently. The dogs that are fully certified have all done it within the last two years.

If I've made any mistakes in the information above I'm sure that Sam will let us know .. *L*

Here is the listing of dogs that have passed all six health certs:

1 - Redcloud Bagua of Tienshan, male, completed tests in March 2006 (Khana's Dad, owned by Paula Titon and Zola Coogan).
2 - Mentor's Swt William Woolball, male, completed tests in August 2006 (owned by Dottie Everett, I know her from an email list).
3 - Sunburst's Awful Nice, female, completed tests in January 2007 (don't know the owner).
4 - Mister Bears Buddy Boy, male, completed tests in April 2007 (I believe is owned by Sam - Red Dragon).
5 - Redcloud Tienshan Rimpoche, male, completed tests in May 2007 (Khana's uncle, also owned by Paula Titon).

And now Khana will make #6, only the second female to pass everything.

I don't know that I will breed her - I've always said that and I haven't decided one way or the other yet. Part of me doesn't want to deal with it and another part says "but Khana would have such WONDERFUL puppies!" .. *L* .. I'd want to keep them all!

There are a lot of things I would have to get settled before I made that choice. But as you can see, there are few chows who are fully certified. That doesn't mean that more couldn't be - but if breeders don't start doing the tests we will never know. I didn't get all the tests done on Khana because I planned to breed her. I did it because I think it's important to see what kind of genetics are being passed on. This is valuable information for the owners of Khana's sire and dam as well as chow breeders overall.

Paula and Zola would guide me in finding a stud that would complement Khana's attributes. It would probably be a linebreeding within the Redcloud lines, which is how they developed the health that the Redcloud dogs are now proving. But it would all have to be done by artificial insemination unless they wanted to bring the stud to her .. *L* .. I am NOT sending her away somewhere if I decide to do a breeding. If that's what it would take then breeding would be absolutely out of the question. She's my buddy, my companion, my therapy dog LONG before she's a performance or breeding dog.

I know there are some out there who are adamantly against breeding when there are so many chows in need of homes. But I hope they can also see why careful and judicious breeding of healthy chows is important to the breed. So many of the chows that end up in rescue are not healthy because the breeders who produced them are more concerned about profit than the good of the pups they produce. And then there are those great breeders who are so dedicated to the breed that they are working hard to eradicate the health problems that are rampant in the breed. It's important for those genes to carry on if the breed is to survive.

So that's the scoop on the health certifications and where the breed is. We should all encourage breeders to have their dogs properly tested. Some of the diseases are not apparent in dogs for years but can be discovered through testing when the dogs are just a year or two old. And for those who have dealt with a dog with hip or elbow dysplasia or luxating patellas, you KNOW what kind of pain it puts the dog in. Why would any breeder not do simple tests that can help them avoid breeding dogs that are likely to have these diseases?

By the way, the six tests on Khana cost me just over $500. That's less than what most breeders - even backyard breeders - charge for just ONE pup. The cost may vary by a few hundred dollars depending on where you live, but expense is NO EXCUSE.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Sylvia]

I ran across a non-Chow breeder's website where she not only tested her own dogs but required as part of the puchasing contract that any puppies that came from her kennel must also be tested by a certain age regardless of whether they would be used for breeding or not. The reason for this was it allowed her to better see if there might still be genetic defects in her lines even if they didn't show up in the dogs she kept. I was wondering what you and others thought of this. I don't know of any Chow breeders that require this of their puppy buyers, but then I haven't looked at more than a few contracts from different kennels.

[Layla]

It interesting to see how few chows have been completely health tested (so far).... It makes it very hard to see how anyone can chose a puppy based entirely on health certs at the moment? How did Khana's breeder choose Khana's mom Melanie?

How do the 'non-show' population get one of these tested pups?

[IliamnasQuest]

Geez .. I am extremely disappointed that this was moved to "Health Discussions". This topic is extremely important to the breed. It's about the value of certifications and how few breeders are stepping up to the plate and doing the proper certifications, not about specific health problems. It should have remained under "General Discussions" so that it would be more visible to people. Let's put the good of the chow breed as a whole first and keep this discussion where it belongs.

Sylvia - it's really hard to require a new owner to get all the tests and to pay for all the tests, but some breeders try to do that. It's a great way to truly know what's going on in their lines. And some breeders opt to keep all the puppies they produce, at least initially, so that they can make all the proper assessments as needed. I'm not sure I agree with that because there comes a point where you can't give enough attention to all the dogs you have. But you'd sure be able to know exactly what was going on within the lines you're working with.

Layla - it's hard to find puppies at this point from chows who are fully tested, or even tested for just hips, elbows, patellas and eyes. The background is also something to look at - how long have they been testing for the basics? Testing for hip dysplasia has been available for a long time - elbow dysplasia and luxating patellas have not been as common in testing until more recently. The best you can do is ask and check numbers and put the breeder on the line. The more people insist on health testing, the more breeders will feel pushed to do it. They shouldn't NEED pushed, but many do.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd ever buy a puppy from someone who didn't do elbow testing. There's just too much elbow dysplasia in the breed. And while ideally all breeding stock passes elbows, I will concede that breeding a chow with grade I elbow dysplasia (especially if it's just in one elbow) may have merit if the other health tests are passed and the dog has really good traits that are desirable in the breed. Of course, a dog like this should only be bred to a dog that has a very strong healthy background in elbows. Careful breeding like this is how the healthy lines of chows have been produced. It's hard to find chows who genetically are healthy all the way around, so you breed up as much as possible until you end up with very healthy dogs.

The problem is that many breeders avoid the testing so they don't have to face up to what they have. And when you don't test, you're playing Russian roulette with the puppies you produce. While there's never a 100% guarantee that puppies will be healthy, the percentage goes way up when you start with healthy breeding stock.

I think the answer to many of the problems within the breed starts with education of the general public. That includes educating on chow temperament, physical traits and health problems. The more we hold breeders accountable and refuse to buy from breeders who don't provide health certifications (and proper socialization and temperament testing, as well as adherence to a breed standard), the better the breed will become overall.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Red Dragon]

Melanie, that's all well and good and a great plan, but my experience with breeding and breeders so far has not even come close to your expectations, in fact the majority of them test nothing more than hips. Sorry if I laugh at your plan, but it will never happen, at least not in the remote future. If I can get a female to take that has some minor issues I will consider myself lucky, because getting something from someone else to use for breeding is nothing but a can of worms. Too many lies and deception for too long of a period to expect much out of the people in the US.

Sylvia, I assume you are talking about Jessica at Gurkan in Sweden, she is the only person I know of that is doing that. Getting something like that done in the US is impossible, and I could give you a million reasons why it would never happen. Sweden is one country that is way far advanced in their thinking on breeding Chows as compared to the rest of the world.

Yes, I do own Mister Bears Buddy Boy, he is a wonderful dog and I hope that I can get some puppies out of him before he gets too old.

I also own Red Dragon's Feng Po-Po, she got very close to passing all of those tests, she has a Grade I right patella, otherwise she would have passed. I can only pray that I get some puppies out of her, she is an extremely nice girl.

I have another female that I am pretty sure will pass all the tests, but we are quite a ways off from doing the testing, so time will tell.

Then you have to get them pregnant when you do want to breed them, that can be a problem too. I just spent almost $1200 on one with a breeding and it didn't take, so all you people that think I am getting rich breeding dogs, guess again. That doesn't include the fact that I had over $1000 in her as a pup and bred her myself, plus a few thousand dollars in travel expenses and show fees to get that championship that everyone wants to see. Then I am not quite as lucky as Melanie, it is around $650 per dog for me to run all those tests and be certified. Then you have the normal expenses that everone else has like feeding and vet bills for routine stuff. Breeding dogs the right way is a losing proposition, I can guarantee that.

[j72]

Totally naive question here Sam... and I will add, STRICTLY out of curiosity because breeding ANYTHING including fleas on a hamster is completely out for me... but why did that breeding cost so much? I know there is a lot I don't get here... but aren't there just certain things that take care of themselves, especially if both dogs were yours... or did I read that wrong? Did she need some really fancy lingerie?

[chowfrnd88]

Melanie, thanks for posting this. It's exactly why I asked you about this all in a pm a while ago. With my new job, I come into contact with a few people who want to breed their dog (and mind you the pup is only 8 weeks ago and it's their first dog) because "I already have so many people lined up that want one, my friends all say they'd take one." So now I can come back with an educated response as to what goes into responsible breeding. I can tell them how important it is to know what health considerations there are with any particular breed and to test for those, etc.

Melanie, I have a stupid question, if you do breed Khana within the Redcloud lines, how long is that okay before it gets into genetic problems? I know that with primates it's quite different than humans and you cna actually go several generations with outright inbreeding before it becomes a problem (say a father can breed with his mate and his daughter, grandaughter, etc. for some generations). Is it the same with dogs?

[Red Dragon]

J72, in the case of the puppies that I bred and had a $1000 invested in right from the start, I had travel time, stud fees, x-rays to see if there were any puppies, and an emergency room c-section, then there were the vet visits to have the puppies checked out and shots. I sold one puppy from that litter for $1200, kept two, and my expenses for that breeding were over $3200.

As for the breeding that I just did and resulted in no puppies, I had a stud fee, travel expenses, and a visit to the vet for an x-ray. I was pretty sure there were no puppies, but if she had one it could be missed by feeling for it, and if she tried to whelp one puppy and couldn't while I was at work, she could die as a result. Most of the time they cannot whelp one or two puppies, the puppies are too large for them to push out, so you have to have a C-section. Fun Fun Fun!

[j72]

Okay... so both dogs weren't yours... I see! With the travel and all that it would add up very quickly! Even without the fancy panties...

[IliamnasQuest]

Well, Sam, the way I look at it is that if we don't even TRY to educate or push breeders into doing more health certifications, then we're certainly not trying to help the breed. Is it a losing battle with some? Oh yes .. there will probably always be those who don't want to do the "right" thing and who will continue to lie and deceive people - and who will continue to produce unhealthy dogs. But every step that is taken to raise the knowledge level of both breeders and general public is going to help in some way.

I have no doubt that there are breeders out there watching those of us who are doing the full certfications and it's making them uneasy. It's raising the bar, so to speak, and it may even shame some into making more of an effort. And that will be GOOD for the health of the breed.

I fully acknowledge that breeding is an expensive proposition which is one of the reasons why I may not breed. I'm a long ways from any dog that would be right for Khana to breed to, so we'd be looking at artificial insemination and all the associated costs. What may help is that I'd be working with the breeders who produced Khana and they have goals .. and offspring from Khana may be part of those goals. I don't plan to become a big breeder. But if I can do my little part (therefore the health certs) then I think it's important that I do so.

chowfrnd - regarding the people who want to breed - emphasizing the need for health certfications is a big step, because most of them don't have a clue. I often pop on the OFA site and take a look at what diseases run in whatever breed it is and then tell them how devastating these conditions are and how important it is to have their dog (and the mate) fully tested prior to breeding. I tell them they need to wait until at least two years old for some of the tests and certainly before breeding as the joints of the dogs should be fully formed. I mention the number of dogs being euthanized (and if they have a common breed - like labs - I talk about how many of that particular breed end up in pounds). And then I talk about the risks toward the dogs themselves. The male dogs don't have near the risks of the females, but if they have a female you can mention how many end up having c-sections (expensive!) and that a certain percentage die when whelping. Both male and female should be tested for brucellosis, which can be transmitted *Censored Word*, before they're bred (mention of an STD in dogs really gets to some people .. *L*).

Your question on linebreeding is not stupid at all. I still have a LOT to learn about that but have been researching the concepts of linebreeding and inbreeding for well over a year now. When I say that she would be bred within the Redcloud lines, that would still give her quite a bit of leeway as far as breeding. There are a lot of Redcloud dogs out there who are not closely related. And then there are those that are. There's a possibility that she may be mated with a dog that is closely related to her on the dam's side, but outcrossed to a dog from the 1980's on his father's side. This would give a mix of linebreeding/outcrossing. I believe that most breeders who do a close linebreeding will then follow that by breeding out farther again - maybe not an outcrossing to totally different lines, but not a second close linebreeding.

I think that the reason linebreeding is so effective for some breeders is that they keep a very close watch on the traits being passed down through the generations. They recognize the bad traits as well as the good ones and then they breed away from the bad traits. In Khana's pedigree, they bred half-siblings (both offspring of Wah-Hu Redcloud Sugar Daddy, a well-known Redcloud male). She also has Redcloud's Big Picture (also well-known) in her pedigree (third, fourth, fifth generations back) listed five times, but that's out of 56 dogs in those generations. So while she's got some linebreeding going on, it's balanced by other dogs farther out in bloodlines.

j72 - I hope I don't have to go out and buy fancy lingerie for Khana if I breed her .. do they have a "Victoria's Secret" for dogs?? *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Sylvia]

do they have a "Victoria's Secret" for dogs?? *L*

http://www.pamperedpuppy.com/features/m ... trodog.php

[Red Dragon]

Melanie, you can't make people do something they don't want to do. You can't make a breeder do health checks without a law that requires them to do so. And you can't make a buyer of a puppy only buy from a breeder that does the health checks. You should know all of this from the forums you have been on. I'm through wasting my breath on them, and wearing out my fingers typing. Guess you just tell people the bad news about what's wrong with their dog and why, the hardest lessons are the only ones people seem to learn.

[Red Dragon]

I need a shrink for two of my females, they think they are supposed to mount the male, I keep telling them it doesn't work very well like that. Getting the males interest isn't a problem, but that leopard skin is sure cute!

[chowfrnd88]

Thanks for all the info Melanie! That makes perfect sense, that is exactly what they do with some primate colonies.

[Layla]

I need a shrink for two of my females, they think they are supposed to mount the male, I keep telling them it doesn't work very well like that.

Sam, they are chows, never going to listen to a word you say (unless you have chicken in your hand at the same time)

[Red Dragon]

Is that the latest Chow breeding technique? So I have to stand in front of them with some chicken while the male mates them? That's almost as bad as collecting semen and doing artificial.

[j72]

do they have a "Victoria's Secret" for dogs?? *L*

http://www.pamperedpuppy.com/features/m ... trodog.php

ROFLMAO!!!! Oh MY GOSH!!! I am crying I am laughing so hard!!!!

But Khana is so pretty, she doesn't need any of the silk and lace... au natural is as gorgeous as it gets for her!

Not that I don't have the visual of it now...

[IliamnasQuest]

Sylvia! Why are you looking at doggie lingerie pages??? *LOL*

Actually nothing there is quite right for Khana .. she'd be more of a black leather, whips and handcuffs type of gal. She'd probably be running some high-level dominatrix kind of business.



Sam - you're right, you can't MAKE people do something they don't want to do. And I understand the frustration because I get frustrated too. Sometimes you need to take a step back and re-group. But I really think that we have a responsibility to the BREED to continue to educate as much as we can. And every once in awhile we get through to someone, and I've seen THAT on the forums many times too. So it's not all wasted.

Do I want to strangle people sometimes? Darn right I do!

Do I get upset when I see someone who KNOWS better do something I think is against the good of the breed? OH yes, I do!

Do I feel good when someone who might have bred their untested, backyard-bred chow decides not to after hearing about health testing, etc.? Oh man, yes! Do I feel good when I hear of someone saying "I asked the breeder about health certifications and they just made excuses why they didn't do them, so I decided not to buy a pup from them"? Yes, yes, YES .. THAT feels good!

It doesn't happen often enough but I do know of several people who have made better choices because of information I've helped them understand. I wish it would happen more. And it's darn hard for me to want to help someone when they make a bad choice when they know better. I do tend to give up on them at that point. Maybe I shouldn't, but I'm only human and I figure I'm not going to waste my time on people who have shown me how unwilling they are to listen. There are others out there who WILL listen. And those people still deserve to be educated, and the chow breed as a whole needs ambassadors who are truly dedicated to the good of the breed.

None of us have all the answers, but together maybe we can figure it all out.

Melanie and the gang

[Sylvia]

Sylvia! Why are you looking at doggie lingerie pages??? *LOL*

When I saw the question about doggie Victoria's Secret, I just had to google it. I'm always amazed by what you can find on the web.

[WildThings]

Melanie, thanks for posting the information on health testing. It doesn't always fall on deaf ears. Until joining this site, I honestly did not realize that breeders should do the health testing at all. I have never gone through a breeder to find my animals, they have all come to my family, I swear they seek us out...but if I ever decided to go with a breeder, I can guarantee I would used the health testing information to make my decision. It's too bad show judges, etc. don't use health testing more to judge participants. To me, that should be the number one priority...then go with the typical judging tools. But then again, in my fantasy world, the AKC should not register dogs unless they pass their health certifications..to breed and not test is just selfish...but then again this is my fantasy world.