ACL surgery brought forward but now I'm in doubt

[Hugo]

Hi
Thanks for the replies and well wishes. Hugo was initially booked for 31 July but the vet called last week and brought the surgery forward to this Thursday 26. Anyway, I have kept the patient very contained for the last few weeks and he was fine, no limping just the normal hugo. This week I started walking him just walking for around 20 mins and he again is fine during the walk and after he is not limping or anything . He even lifts that leg to wee and lifts the opposite one to wee the next time so is able to take the weight on it. He also does the chow kicking dirt up all over the place after the wee, no prob. When he very first did the injury he was limping around quite badly so he went to 2 vets and the 2nd did some shots and I was allowed to do short walks with him, which he was ok with but after woud limp around. Not limping now, what do I do? Is he healed or what?
Thanks
Michelle

[Sarahloo]

No limping, AND kicking up dirt? You're right to be concerned! The surgery will incapacitate him for quite a while, so it would be crazy to do surgery on him just as he is regaining his mobility. Talk to the vet and tell him what you've observed, and if he/she is a decent person, they will agree to pushing the surgery back until you've had a chance to observe Hugo more!

[Cam Atis]

I agree. See I told you before that it'll go away but judging from the length of time that it took Hugo to regain his strength means something is amiss. Normally the limping will go away in 2-3 days time. But surgery is definitely not the answer just yet. You know it can be rooted to being over weight.
Sarahloo is right, your vet must not push you on hAving the surgery especially if they don't really have a SOLID reason to do it. But I am not positive that your vet will let you and Hugo off the hook that easy. (sorry for being pessimistic. I know how some doctors are ;D )

Have Hugo on the skinnier side and put him on diet. Then observe once he maintained the weight that you want him to have.
Cassie became heavy with 4 cups of kibble a day, she became slow and I posted here that she can't clear a ledge that for another dog breed, that's quite easy to clear when jumping. She wanted to imitate the agility of Blue (Mini Pin/Toy Fox Terrier mix) so I felt oblige to give her the body fit for such kind of activity. She is losing weight now and getting more active again running around.

[reddog]

I would take the “wait & see” position for a little longer and postpone the acl surgery for now. Some vets are quick to jump on a possible surgery because of the money it will generate. My Whitby is a 7 year old rescue I got this past December with the help of “Santa Paws” (which is the nickname I gave the lady who went to bat to find Whitby a new home). She even went above and beyond just finding her a new home – she contacted the vet that Whitby had been taken to since she was a puppy and obtained her vet records. Just reading through the pages and pages of the vet records was a challenge considering the chicken scratching (writing) . Talk about unnecessary trips to the vet and tests and surgeries done. I think the vet must have been adding onto his clinic and he took advantage of Whitby’s owner. The vet thought the one acl should be done and convinced her owner into having both of them done (one within a short time of the other one). Whitby was only a puppy then. Fast forward to now. Whitby is starting to have trouble going up the steps at my home. She’ll have her front paws on the step in front of her and she’ll stand there a few minutes, sort of huffing & puffing like a little train and then she’ll start up the steps with some effort. I usually try to be behind her and give her a little boost as she does the steps. Once up the steps, she’ll look around at me and give me a look as if to say “Thanks mom”.

[Rio]

Have to agree, with the concensus, wait and see how he goes, you are after all Hugos primary carer and you alone should be the one that decides whether to go ahead or not. If in fact things take a turn for the worse again, you seem quite able to keep Hugo off his feet until surgery is scheduled.
Keep up the gentle exercise and heres hoping it was just a muscle strain and nothing that does require surgery.

[Hugo]

Thanks everyone! I have cancelled the surgery and after researching supplements etc on here I have bought some Bio Organics Glucosamine 750+ Chondroitin 400. I read on here that others had given Gluco 500 + Chon 400, but I could only get this from the chemist. They are for humans, any ideas on dose?
Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate your time.

[Hugo]

Weight could possibly be an issue, he weighs 27kg. I dont think he's overweight I thought they were supposed to be stocky! He is solid, not really overweight. Or is he?

Thanks again

[Cam Atis]

Is he?
What's the height? I don't think he is 25 inches tall at the shoulders? If not, if he's at 22 inches try losing 2kg. it'll help his paws enormously.
If he's shorter, lose another kilo. You must do that spread over months like 2-3 months. Lessen his ration that's all. Don't diet drastically.
Yes cassie is also stocky at no efforts from her at all. looks like an oversized puppy.
About the chondroitin and others intended for human consumption, dont worry as it is actually safer. we do a higher quality assurance/assay for meds intended for human. I mean the standard is higher although those for animals are not very much behind.
Your vet will be able to help you with how much of the dose that must be taken by Hugo, then with that information, your pharmacist at the local druggist or pharmacy can help you on how to meet that dose. Either they suggest you halved it or they'll halve it for you. They are the ones who can compute for you on how to meet the required dose if ever the prepared tablet or cap does not meet it up.

[Rio]

Ask for dosage amounts and up pops our friendly pharmacist. I knew Cam could answer that one for ya lol.

[Hugo]

I just measured him, to the top of his shoulder(I hope I did it in the right spot). I measured him at 45cm (17.5inches)

[Cam Atis]

@Rio Thanks. Hope to read it in time.

@Hugo. Oh he's grossly overweight! my best estimate for his weight should be around 21kg-22kg.
(The Dal is 24 inches at the shoulders and the weight is never over 21kg. = that was my Cookie. And you know how they look in the pictures - that's NOT how a chowchow should look because they have their tummy low unlike the Dal who's slim at the tummy, but at least you can visualize)

So for Hugo being a chow, try lowering the weight GRADUALLY. He'll still look plump at 21-22kg. I don't know how protein affects the fat (actually I could not remember LOL)

Dieting is the hardest part. I can't resist giving an additional cup to Cassie when she's on Royal Canin. She is fine now with Holistic Recipe Lamb for puppy. I mean she can eat a lot and not pack weight. Holistic Puppy is only 24% Crude Protein while Royal Canin Shih tzu Jr. is 28% Crude Protein.
With A LOT I mean is 4 cups daily but she's now reduced to 3cups daily and she doesn't complain YET.

[Hugo]

Thanks for that. He's only ever had 2 cups a day. one for brkfst and one for dinner. Not many treats either. Anyway would cutting down to half a cup at each meal be too little?

[Cam Atis]

Here's a photo of Cassie (and me) taken today for you. She is almost 8 months. (will turn 8 months on august 05,2012)
Cassie's weight as of today is 14kg. Her height is a little over 16 inches at the shoulders. (exact is 16.25 inches). You can see she has a waist now. Three weeks ago she doesn't have any.

[Rio]

What does a cup of food translate to in weight? I mean the weight of the food not the dog LOL. Rio only has 5-6 ounces of dry food a day. He has .5 cup of white rice. He also has a small chicken breast for training, but not everyday.
Last weigh in he was 20kgs and was 16 inches at the shoulder but that was 2 weeks ago. He will be 6 months in 2 weeks. I actually think his fur weighs a couple of kilos LOL.

[Cam Atis]

@ Hugo: 2 cups a day should be fine. I wonder why he's packing weight?

@Rio: Honestly I don't know how much a cup of food will translate into actual body weight. Normally, caloric data is needed (like how many calories a single serving is...) and the they (the dietitians) will estimate (I don't know how they do it) the caloric expenditures. ANything excess in calories will be stored by the body in the form of muscles or fats for future use or if there's famine (hahaha)

LOL @ these from you guys. we'd say here "Denial!" a form of joke, when that something is so obvious. heheh:

I actually think his fur weighs a couple of kilos LOL.

He is solid, not really overweight. Or is he?

[Hugo]

LOL!
Lovey photo, thank you. In regard to the glucosamine 750 and choncroitin 400, what would you suggest in dosage? Thanks again. BTW I'm on a diet myself and have currently lost 5 kilos YAY!!.
Have a good weekend.

[Rio]

Well done you, do you have a target weight or are you just seeing where you end up?

[Cam Atis]

I really dont know what's the correct dose for the dogs. You may have to ask your vet for that.
Have a good weekend too! I didnt realize it is saturday again tomorrow.

[Sarahloo]

I just measured him, to the top of his shoulder(I hope I did it in the right spot). I measured him at 45cm (17.5inches)

Loo is 58cm and weighs as much as Hugo does! But then again, they are not the same built. I wonder what the right weight is for a Chow with a heavy built. You can't expect them to weigh the same that an athletic Chow does, wouldn't be fair to Hugo, can't put the little guy on a starvation diet. How's Hugo's mobility? Can he do longer walks?

[Sarahloo]

@ Hugo: 2 cups a day should be fine. I wonder why he's packing weight?

He has mobility issues, as this thread tells you. Cassie's a young thing in full health, while Hugo has his cross to "bear" . Just like with people, the youngsters have no trouble losing weight, but once the ill health starts, it's very difficult.

[Hugo]

He walks fine, although has had the last couple of mnths fairly quiet due to the leg issue, I have been walking him again though 20 mins a day is about what we do. Perhaps he has packed on the weight while not walking for the couple of mnths. Will slowly increase the walking time up to an hr over the next mths, (weather permitting), then in Summer we'll be in the pool again.

[Hugo]

Rio,
Thanks. Yes I hope to get to 70kg.

[Rory's Dad]

1st off, i agree, if your dog is not showing any signs of discomfort or limping, put off any surgeries. Any procedure requiring anethesia is a risk to our Chow friends. Speak with the vet. Perhaps they have an xray or mri or whatever shows ligament damage to support their conclusion. Partial damage/tears in humans can repair on their own with rest, so similar would be expected within canines.

Dictating a dogs weight bases solely on his/her height is extremely unscientific and can be downright dangerous. For any breed of dog, the weight initially is based on bone and muscle mass. As we have all agreed, there is quite a bit of variation in our Chows. There are the taller, thinner boned types prevalent in Asia. The shorter, US style dogs are shorter with a lot more muscle mass.

Look at any of the charts in your vets office. They are based on general condition. Ribs accessible to the touch, but not overly visible to the eye. No bulging at the body and a slight indentation just before the hips. Force dieting a dog that does not visibly appear overweight makes no sense. Each dog should be considered on its own condition, not a height to weight formula that doesnt take into account the dogs build.

As for any supplement, it would be wise to consult a reputable vet. Dosage calculations can be difficult at best. If the supplement would serve any benefit at all.

[Cam Atis]

Oh I am not telling To diet Hugo to the point of starvation (the 2 cups daily is from Hugo's so I kinda replied it is fine - even little, but if Hugo doesnt move a lot then that 2 cups is fine ). I am just saying lower the weight so it will be easy on him healthwise. Yes Sarah, Cassie is still young and actually I shouldn't be putting her on diet just yet because she's growing up but I just went on 3 wks ago, to lessen her ration and so far her weight have stagnated giving her room for carefree running. I know Hugo is older and more complacent but i am not sure if they do have difficulty in shedding excess weight as I saw dogs shed weight fairly easily. My 2-3months allowance is for 2kg loss. If we are targeting like 5kg weight loss, that should spread out more to about 6months. That way, we let Hugo's body adjust. Feeding 2 cups is fine. Just add some exercise and he'll loose excess wt.
Cassie is NOT the athletic type. She came from generations of champion and we all know how they looked. But you may mistake her for being athletic coz she's SLIM. I think it is doable. Perhaps it is also an advantage that I let them out of the house most of the time thus she has a lot of exercise.

[Cam Atis]

Dictating a dogs weight bases solely on his/her height is extremely unscientific and can be downright dangerous.

I beg to differ. Actually the reverse is TRUE.

Thus if you notice it is quite different from the weight height relation on a dalmatian, mini pin, great dane FROM chowchow and the likes. too many technical terms, angulations, rib cage size etc are all jargons that cannot be understood by people in general who had no medical backgrounds. Plain common sense judgment would suffice. And I trust most of us has a sound judgement. Not all are applicable to all. You'll be able to assess based on the dog's behavior. Cassie's lineage to my dismay after MORE careful research comes from the US not China. :-,