ChowChow.org

We fed V (or Ve-Ve) boiled burger 1/2 hot dog Mar. 12, next day she pooped loosed stool, right after that watery stool (gushed out) then followed by squirting blood, she kept trying to go, but nothing came out except runny blood. --- she was put on metronizodole--- with a bland diet then slowly went back on old food mixed with bland diet everything was smooth sailing until Apr.2 I came home to a repeat of the above. BUT this time she's had no weird food, just her can food. I feed her Pedigree. There's was nothing out of ordinary she was fed. ---- vets are gonna put her back on metronizodole----- what do you guys think????? Her nose had a raw looking blood spot but that is not from licking herself, it could be from my other dog playing / nipping on her like he always does. OTher than all this she's acting fine, running, stalking, drinking... Other dog is not experiencing these symptoms... The only thing we've been consistently giving her on her food is glucosamine / consequin. Anybody ever have bad experience with a sensitive stomach dog and consequin????

If this don't shake out, she's going in for testing.

Thanks for any andall replies. If you see any of my other posts my Ve-Ve is known to be a picky eater. And has gone through periods of not eating. But never refuses chicken.

she's lost to much weight in the past 2 months. from 48 lbs - to 40 lbs.........

so scared.

(( I forgot to note that her poop tested ok last time))

A large percentage of ground meat is contaminated with the superbug clostridium difficile which forms toxins in the gut, and can result in the type of hemorrhagic diarrhea you described. It's possible to relapse after medication is stopped because the gut immune system is altered/weakened after med use, and because the superbug spores can live on in the environment. *Probiotics* help keep clostridium in check in the gut immune system. Here's an archived thread on another type of clostridium, but if you search for clostridium difficile, you'll also find the same info on probiotics (lactobacillus, etc.) There's also an archived thread on Probiotics in the "Best of Nutrition" section


archived topic - Clostridium Perfringens--- positive for enterotoxin A

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10551&p=124085

Thaaaank you Kiwani

You really got me diggin the internet about probiotic. Silly me, our family doc prescribed it recently for my husband while taking his antibiotics. I found some hiding in my cubbard I must have bought months ago, store brand generic exp. 5/09 I took with some yogur just now just to see what'll happen. I know nutrition, but it's easy to get off track and go back to old ways of eating. I printed out all the materials you posted. Thank you so much.

Here's what i was just reading:
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/probiotics/#uses

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/fut/long.html

http://search.bodybuilding.com/search?q ... n&filter=0

Here's another - How Probiotics Can Help Prevent Disease
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/144814.php


btw, try the potent refrigerated probiotic capsules in health shops. Those brands contain about 5 billion cfu's per capsule (colony forming units)

Best wishes...

My first reaction was chlostridium as well. Dargo goes through this every time I'm gone for more than two days Seriously, it's ridiculous. But it's a stress induced thing that lives in the environment and our vet said that you can't even kill it with bleach. Short of living in a bubble, dogs can get it at any time, it's simply a matter of how strong their immune system is. Whenever I see a bloody stool I now know to immediately take a sample to the vet and ask them to specifically test it for that. If that is ruled out we go from there. No use wasting time and money testing for other things when I know Dargo's tendencies.

nean007 wrote:...our vet said that you can't even kill it with bleach

Excerpt:
Bleach is the only cleaner that kills the spore-forming type of C difficile and only 65 per cent of the hospitals they surveyed used it...
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/129118.php

So I just researched about clostridium perfringens and read at one website veterinarypartner.com that culturing from a fecal sample will not be adequate for diagnosis; they have to find the toxin. Or here is the link, http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... A=2239&S=1

My question I'm wondering, while giving metronizodole, is it ok to give a probiotic?

Then I wonder, the vet said if this don't clear up then they're gonna have to do testing and possibly a diet change. And wondered what would they test for? I've kept a diary on her for over a year now. If they have the time, I can read it. Between her picky eating episodes, she's tried to throw up with a lot of mucous (not all of it comes up) or just yellow will come out.

Other causes of gastrointestinal bleeding that must be considered as possibilities and subsequently ruled out include:

Gastrointestinal ulcers
Colitis
Parvovirus
Coronavirus
Campylobacter sp (bacteria)
Salmonella sp (bacteria)

Clostridium sp (bacteria) - If it's this and stress plays a role in churning it up, I have our other dog to blame he picks on her something fierce. Itry to tell him no, at times she barks back, other times he drags her out of her den by pulling her cheek with his mouth, literally! No who wouldn't be stressed out by this. She even sounds like she's saying No!!!

Escherichia coli (bacteria)
Leptospirosis
Whipworms
Hookworms
Coccidiosis
Giardiasis
Warfarin (rat poison) toxicity

Thromobocytopenia (low platelets) -i suspect this, her brother (from a different litter) had strange spontaneous bleeding (we lost him over a year ago- not due to this bleeding episode) she's had 3 periods in one year. A cbc should tell us everything i suppose.

Gastrointestinal cancer
Hypoadrenocorticism

rufnedge-2 wrote:...Other causes of gastrointestinal bleeding that must be considered as possibilities and subsequently ruled out include...

It *could* be a long list of possibilities, but persons reading this forum will base their advice on the information you've posted. Ground meat is considered to be a source of superbugs, because it's a *blending* of meat pieces and it gets further contaminated by whatever bacteria is on the grinding machine from other meats. The superbugs produce the type of bloody gastro symptoms you described. The superbug medications *do* alter and *weaken* the gut immune system and they don't kill the superbug *spores* in the colon. The spores also live on in the environment.


Probiotics keep the superbugs in check in the gut immune system - but probiotics weren't given after the last round of meds. The meds actually wiped out the *good army* in the gut immune system.


Pedigree dog food isn't considered to be a quality food or one that helps to keep the immune system/body strong. It might be a fine food for a Chihuahua, but a Chow needs a great amount of hormone power (from optimal nutrition) just to grow a dense double coat. The gut lining needs optimal nutrition too for repair/rebuilding. The food you feed is what provides the building blocks of the body (muscle, *immune function*, hormones, blood, etc....)

If the nutritional building blocks are weak, the body can't mount a strong defense, can't keep up with repair/rebuilding, etc.

rufnedge-2 wrote:So I just researched about clostridium perfringens and read at one website veterinarypartner.com that culturing from a fecal sample will not be adequate for diagnosis; they have to find the toxin. Or here is the link, http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... A=2239&S=1

I am not sure what you mean by this but all they would have to do is take a stool sample and specifically check if the c diff toxin is present.

Where it's written "other causes of gastrointestinal" I cut and paste this from a website that provided that long list.

Same for the testing / finding the bug - just reprinted from a website. Not sure if those websites are accurate but I would trust what you's are saying over them.

No doubt I'm going to discuss with the vet...

As far as the quality of food.. I sprinkle on vitamins on their food (not hers food she don't like it-she wriggles her mouth even if i make it gravy) that's made by Nupro (wow i didn't even know it has lactobacillus acidolphilus) I just read it. Hmmm..maybe thats why my boy isn't having the same symptoms as her. As I mentioned he had the burger and the hot dog too, he had the runs but no blood. Hmm..

rufnedge-2 wrote:Where it's written "other causes of gastrointestinal" I cut and paste this from a website that provided that long list....Same for the testing / finding the bug - just reprinted from a website.

Yes, I did understand that those sections were cut/paste jargon.

rufnedge-2 wrote:As far as the quality of food.. I sprinkle on vitamins on their food (not hers food she don't like it-she wriggles her mouth even if i make it gravy) that's made by Nupro (wow i didn't even know it has lactobacillus acidolphilus) I just read it.

But, in essence, you are trying to doctor-up Pedigree's toxic preservatives, inferior by-product ingredients, lower quality protein, etc. You mentioned that she doesn't get/like the Nupro vitamin sprinkles anyway. Have you tried something like "California Natural"? That's a limited formula version made by the same company as Innova.

rufnedge-2 wrote:Hmmm..maybe thats why my boy isn't having the same symptoms as her. As I mentioned he had the burger and the hot dog too, he had the runs but no blood. Hmm..

Yes, each dog is an individual in terms of what health they inherit, plus she endures more stress by being bullied by your boy, and her immune system was weakened further by the meds.

You might also check for any more Pedigree salmonella recalls, in case you use their other products. They've had problems before...

So far she's doing ok... No pet recalls on any of the food i've been given. Pedigree's never been onthe recall list before so that's good.

rufnedge-2 wrote:Pedigree's never been onthe recall list before so that's good.

Pedigree has had recalls in the past year.

Do you mind if I ask you where you get your info from that says pedigree had any recalls?

I go by : http://www.fda.gov/cvm/petfoods.htm

I just used the search engine, because I remembered the press releases from last year.

Here's one link about two Pedigree recalls...

http://pet-nutrition.suite101.com/artic ... all_issued

This link mentions that the manufacturing plant has been closed permanently, and that it was the same facility closed for cleaning in 2007, also because of salmonella. (The 2007 closure is mentioned on your FDA link)

http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm ... ood_recall

Pedigree dog food isn't considered to be a quality food or one that helps to keep the immune system/body strong. It might be a fine food for a Chihuahua, but a Chow needs a great amount of hormone power (from optimal nutrition) just to grow a dense double coat. The gut lining needs optimal nutrition too for repair/rebuilding. The food you feed is what provides the building blocks of the body (muscle, *immune function*, hormones, blood, etc....)

Kiwani,
What do you think of Avoderm? What do you feed your dogs? Just curious because now I think Denny has chlostridium

nean007 wrote:Kiwani, What do you think of Avoderm? What do you feed your dogs? Just curious because now I think Denny has chlostridium

I've recommended an Avoderm formula to one of the members here. It doesn't seem to be available everywhere though. I've most often recommended Solid Gold "Wolf King" (adult) "Wolf Cub" (puppy) or Natura's line, mostly Innova. Natura has a higher priced organic line too, but it's not available everywhere. There are two older threads started by willowchow
"what's everyone(everybody) feeding?" I mentioned the fresh foods I add in one of those threads. There have also been numerous threads where we discussed pros/cons of various new brands too.

Do you supplement with probiotics?

kiwani wrote: "Pedigree dog food isn't considered to be a quality food or one that helps to keep the immune system/body strong. It might be a fine food for a Chihuahua, but a Chow..."

Poor Chihuahuas...they can't catch a break...lmao.

Auddymay wrote:Poor Chihuahuas...they can't catch a break...lmao.

They seem more like a praying mantis, and probably would look better in green.

Nean007,

I know you asked Kiwani for her thoughts on Avoderm. I wanted to add that my Miss Pooh Bear and Tiggy are on Avoderm. I switched from Solid Gold Wolf King to SG Hundchenflocken to Avoderm Lamb Meal a few months ago, due to economy, not quality of food. They are doing well on it and as I mentioned on a different thread, Tiggy's coat is shiny, shiny! When Bruin was living with us, he was on Wolf King then I switched his food to Natural Balance in January because that's the other brand the rescue wants their fosters to be on and his meals were not affected by the economy. Once we met his new family and realised they fed Avoderm to their chows, I transitioned his meals to Avoderm so he was good to go in that regard.

I was able to get plenty samples of the different types of Avoderm from their pet store. They tried the chicken, the baked beef and also the vegetarian. They did best on the Lamb Meal.

Back to Pedigree.... our first two chows were on Pedigree all their long lives. However, that was back in the early '80's when dog food choices weren't as dizzying as they are now. Maybe the quality of their product in the US was better back then, I don't know. We had chihuahuas in the '70's and they were on Pedigree too! Burrita was light brown and Burrito was black... would have loved to have had a green chihuahua!

Thank you Kiwani and ZhuyosMom,
Well the vet switched Denny to Science Diet ID, antibiotics, and probiotics. I asked specifically about the probiotics and she had already included it but I was glad to know what it was. She thinks he would be best on any dog food for sensitive stomachs from now on. I tried to switch Dargo to Avoderm canned (he only eats canned -- little stinker) and he just didnt' like the texture. So back to science diet (yuch) but he seems much happier with it. I had Denny on Avoderm dry lite and he really liked it. I like that Avoderm actually smells like food rather than a can/bag of chemicals.

nean007 wrote:...rather than a can/bag of chemicals.

It's your dog, your decision.

If all your one will eat is canned, try Nature's Recipe canned. Mine love the rabbit flavor, I give venison in the dry version, so I don't get it in the wet, though it is available. No corn, no wheat.