uncooked beef for a sickly chow

[chowdad]

Hello,
I have discovered after months of trying everything to get my chow George to eat that what he was craving was ground beef. But he wants it raw, and at this point he's been so sick for so long I've decided if this is a risk it's worth it. It began with me making attempts to boil it for him, and he would run in the kitchen all excited, but by the time I served it he'd lost his appetite. Very frustrating for both of us. He kept showing all this interest in the packaging, licking any little bits that were left before it was cooked. So last night I said what the hell George and gave it to him uncooked he ate all of it and was smiling and smacking his lips for hours. Do my fellow Chowist have any thoughts on this?

[LEO's mum]

I am no expert, but I think he knows what his body needs. Make sure to check what comes out at the other end. If that's OK, no need to worry. He needs to eat and rebuild his strengh. I am so glad to hear he is eating. Stick to lean meat, not too much fat. Gradually you can add grated/food processed veggies(raw or cooked) as per Bama's receipe according to his appetite & excuse the word, pooh. I would leave out the raw egg whites especially because of his weakened condition. Once again, so glad to hear he is better.

Hugs,
Leonora & mum

[chris]

Try this.. Bama has a really good recapie.. (sp?)

http://chowchow.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4543

there are a few others in this section as well. I think Bama freezes the patties that way she can just whip it out and give it to her pups.

[LEO's mum]

One more thing, Green Tripe. I've never used it myself, & I'm not sure how easily digestible these are, but that might work for him. Help him get the necessary enzimes back. Maybe other's will assist me in it's nutritional values or ask your vet if feeding him Green Tripe is OK. There was a thread recently on it as well.

[chowdad]

Thanks for the input. George is a very fickle eater. It is about to drive me and his Mom completely nuts. What he takes one day he refuses the next, and because he has been sick for 3 months we have been spoiling him more than usual. He went through a phase where he would only eat canned tuna, a week later he will have nothing to do with it but likes salmon. This morning he refused the raw beef he gobbled up the night before, so I boiled it for a minute, and after an hour of turning his nose at that he eats it up. His bowels are a little scary right now, but they have always been loose. He is on antibiotics and I don't know if that's why. This is where you should stop if you are not into poop.

Runny and black with some green, not real thin, but not solid, with some regular looking light brown patches mixed in. Thank You.

It usually seems when I try to hide anything in his food, he is off that food for several weeks. Once about a month ago I had him up to 50/50 cottage cheese/ kibble mix. Then I ran out of cottage cheese and tried 90% kibble. He still won't touch cottage cheese, and is offended if it's offered. Silly Chow Chow.

[chris]

He is on antibiotics and I don't know if that's why.

that is a very good possibility... Where is Kiwani... ? She can probably help ya here.

[kiwani]

Re: "I've decided if this is a risk it's worth it."

Is it worth the risk of losing your Chow to hemorrhagic gastroenteritis, (severe bloody diarrhea, vomitting)? Your dog already has a severely depressed immune system, and is currently on antibiotics, which would result in further weakening the disease fighting gut immune system. You now want to introduce salmonella and campylobacter, e-coli, into this situation?

If dogs innately knew what was healthful for them, they wouldn't eat chocolate, turkey skins, or drink anti-freeze.

Ground beef is often filthier too because it's a blend of several cuts of the day passing through the grinder. Choose lean roasts instead. Before slicing into a raw roast, heavily salt the roast, rub the salt in, and then rinse in cold water. You can then slice the roast into slabs, broil one slab per meal and freeze the rest.

[chris]

Kiwani... couldn't you also go to your local butcher, pick out a roast from the display and then have the butcher grind it up for you? Would that be better?

do you have any suggestions for chowdad and his chow? How can he get him to eat more and become better health wise?

[Jeff&Peks]

Ever think that by hiding the meds in his food it might be causing him not to eat. after he does eat he may be getting sick or have some side effects from the meds so won't go anywhere near that type of food again. plus no matter how well you hide them in his food he can smell those meds a mile away. My Chow Pekoe loves Cheese like all Chows but if I hid something in it she will never touch cheese again.

Cottage Cheese is a gourmet meal to a Chow so if he isn't eating it he probably had a reaction from one of the meds or smells the meds in it so relates it to the cottage cheese.

I have broken pills and put it in Pekoes food she knows its there and won't eat it, if she does some how she will eat around it all and leave everything with meds on it in the bowl.

Chows are extremely finicky eaters as it is they don't revolve their lives around the food bowl and will go days with out eating if they think something is wrong with the food or gets sick from it.

Unless Kiwani doesn't agree or has another Idea I would leave the meds out of his food for awhile and go about giving the meds a different way.

[LEO's mum]

If you are worried about germs, you can make a "tataki" out of steak or tuna. That should take care of the germs that thrive on the surface of a cut. Heat a pan to extremely hot & sear the outside and shock it in ice cold water to stop it cooking. Aside from dog food, I don't feed my Leo anything that I won't eat. So, "tataki" rather than totally raw. You can cut them in to what ever chunks or slices you want, at least you know how long the new surface is exposed to air. Slice them thin and you can share the steak w/ your baby. I like it w/ salt & olive oil. Soy-sauce, lemon juice + tabasco is also nice as well as soy-sauce + wasabi. The condiments are for non-furry ones only, tho....

[kiwani]

Re: "Kiwani... couldn't you also go to your local butcher, pick out a roast from the display and then have the butcher grind it up for you? Would that be better?"

Why would I want the filthy bacteria colony from the butcher's grinder mixed into my meat? Why would I want the bacteria on the outer surface of the roast mixed into my meat? The whole *point* of buying a roast and trying to sanitize the surface *before* cutting into it, is to reduce the bacteria.


Re: "do you have any suggestions for chowdad and his chow? How can he get him to eat more and become better health wise?"

If you haven't been to the health forum lately, you'll find several pages devoted to this Chow.

[kiwani]

Re: "Unless Kiwani doesn't agree or has another Idea I would leave the meds out of his food for awhile and go about giving the meds a different way."

I agree. What usually works is using five pieces of an extraordinary treat (cream cheese, liverwurst, etc.) feed two, hide the med in the third, and quickly offer the last two morsels.

[chris]

[quote="kiwani]Re: "do you have any suggestions for chowdad and his chow? How can he get him to eat more and become better health wise?"If you haven't been to the health forum lately, you'll find several pages devoted to this Chow.[/quote]


dough... my bad.. sorry

[Merlin]

Hello,
I have discovered after months of trying everything to get my chow George to eat that what he was craving was ground beef. But he wants it raw, and at this point he's been so sick for so long I've decided if this is a risk it's worth it. It began with me making attempts to boil it for him, and he would run in the kitchen all excited, but by the time I served it he'd lost his appetite. Very frustrating for both of us. He kept showing all this interest in the packaging, licking any little bits that were left before it was cooked. So last night I said what the hell George and gave it to him uncooked he ate all of it and was smiling and smacking his lips for hours. Do my fellow Chowist have any thoughts on this?

Let him eat raw! He's telling you some good news if you ask me.
Chows over and above other breeds are excellent candidates for raw feeding regimes. They have a naturally lowered pH which makes them ideal candidates for raw.

I've been raw feeding for some 10 years now. If you have any questions, please don't hesiate to ask. There is every thing good about feeding an appropriate species specific diet.

Excellent raw learning link at:

http:///www.rawlearning.com

[chowdad]

Thanks to all. George is slowly recovering his appetite, and only chose raw meat once. He now prefers it boiled for a minute or two and drained. He had another vet visit yesterday to check for what is causing him not to eat. He has lost 4 pounds in two weeks. All his stool tests were clear, and the vet says it will just take a while. He is very very picky and has been all of his life. He will eat most meats only the day they are opened. It must be extremely fresh or he refuses it. Today he ate canned salmon, and ground beef with rice.

I don't hide any thing in his food except other food (rice or nutro dry) that I'm trying to switch him over to eating. His meds are tossed to the back of his throat. This works well for us.

I appreciate your blessing Merlin. I have read a dozen or more books on chows and canine health from the library, half of them suggest BARF diets, the other half say no raw food. That's why I asked here, because I wanted chow specific advice. Thank You.

[bama]

>>..Is it worth the risk of losing your Chow to hemorrhagic gastroenteritis, (severe bloody diarrhea, vomitting)?<<<

Kiwani,
My princess buttercup recently had hemorrhagic gastro-enteritis HGE). Exactly what causes this illness in any animal is unknown, except the fact that it is a bacteria. The most common cause is when they eat poop, whether dog or out of the cat box. I wouldn't want folks to get the wrong impression that raw diet made PB sick. Since she has been on a raw diet for 1 1/2 years, I don't think that caused her problem. My other two furkids eat the same thing and they are flourishing. All my pets throughout the years have eaten a raw diet with wonderful results.
If I gave the impression that Princess Buttercup got ill from a raw diet, I apologise.
I will say this, when mixing up a raw diet such as the Bama Burgers, the meat is refrigerated and is added as the last ingredient. I work fast and get the meat back into the refrigerator.
As for the cut of meat, due the fact that hamburger meat from the butcher stays in the grinder longer, therefore I prefer to get a roast and have it ground. Also, it must be eaten immediately once removed from the frig.
Sorry for any confusion.

[bama]

>>>>I appreciate your blessing Merlin. I have read a dozen or more books on chows and canine health from the library, half of them suggest BARF diets, the other half say no raw food. That's why I asked here, because I wanted chow specific advice. Thank You.<<<<

Chowdad,

Just as there are strongly opinionated Democrats and Republicans, there are two schools of thought on Raw vs Cooked diets for our pets and they are strongly opinionated.
I am a fan of raw diet. There are others that are not.
I think you have to decide what is best for you and your chowkid.
Good Luck,
Sherill

[Merlin]

As for the cut of meat, due the fact that hamburger meat from the butcher stays in the grinder longer, therefore I prefer to get a roast and have it ground. Also, it must be eaten immediately once removed from the frig.
Sorry for any confusion.

Hamburger meat is not a raw diet. I am constantly amazed at people who come to the conclusion that hamburger meat or ground meat constitutes an appropriate canine diet. It doesn't.

The mastication process for dogs is a necessary one and chows above most other breeds, have incredibly strong jaws meant for pulverizings and processing bone.

A raw diet consists of HUNKS and CHUNKS of meat with "some", bone attached, or hunks of fish. The ratio should be 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal/tripe - that's what we should all be striving for.

I have a typical menu at the bottom of this page on Merlin's website:
http://www.clubequestre.com/merlin/BLOG ... 000047.htm




Cheers
MM

[chowdad]

Hello All, I didn't think that ground beef was an appropriate BARF diet, because it stands for Bones and Raw Food. A good FAQ about BARF is at

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

The issue they have in common is the safety of uncooked meet for our chows.

George has eaten uncooked meat three times in 10 years. Twice he stole meat from the kitchen counter, and once last week I gave him some. No ill effects so far. He seems to prefer it cooked rare most of the time, but his appetite is very tricky and he is not at all consistent with what he likes to eat.

Merlin, it is interesting that you mention mastication, because that's what got all this soft food started in the first place. George stopped being able to eat/chew kibble in november. So we began feeding cottage cheese, soft rare beef, soft jerky treats etc. The diet he's on now is only to get him back healthy enough to eat normal, and it's working he has started eating his kibble and hard treats again in the last three days.

I think Kiwani's advice that he may have a zinc/copper imbalance is what has led to his recovery. We started giving him vitamins that day, about 3 weeks ago and he has steadily improved since. We are using Preservision brand vitamins because they are high quality and high in zinc, and easy to swallow.

I have no personal opinion on, or experience with BARF diets. I've never fed that way.

Again thanks to everyone for input, we are going through a tough time and need it.

[Merlin]

Firstly, the word BARF went out about 5 years ago. The word "raw", is in these days it seems. BARF does not have a good connotation to it anymore.

I know about the NJBoxer site. They were pioneers way back when, when we all hopped onto the no-kibble bandwagon, and I think they were represented the first BREEDER who raised litters on Raw publically, and were proud of it.

Sorry to hear about your chow haveing mouth problems. There could be a great many reasons for that, let alone food issues. I'm sure you were saavy enough to have his gums/teeth and all that checked. Soft palates , yes, certainly can be a result of missing vitamins and minerals.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it higher up in this particular discussion. If you are going to feed kibble then you should know what is IN the kibble and understand the dangerous, potential side effects. That for treats too by the way.
You can learn alot at : http://www.dogfoodproject.com

You may be willing to read more at:
http://www.rawlearning.com

The purist-raw feeders (like myself), feed meat/fish only, no additives are necessary, no supplements, just plain ole meat with some tripe and offal.


Chowists are quite lucky in that chows are a much hardier breed than other breeds. I also have Chinese Shar-Pei and can tell you that if you gave them poor quality dog food, in a short time you'd be dispensing thousands at a vet. There are several other breeds that fall into that category as well. Chows seem to be much hardier in that respect, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve the best we can feed them as well!

Cheers
all the best
MM