I know this should be in the nutrition forum but....
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I know this should be in the nutrition forum but....
I thought for all those who post here looking for nutrition help maybe it would help and I'm sure the mods will soon move it anyway....sorry mods 
I did not write this.....I kinda borrowed it from another forum...hope this is OK!
After constantly going around and correcting myths, giving advice, etc, I have decided to compile a thread to help new owners of large breed puppies pick out a proper kibble, dispel any myths, and shoot straight from the hip with facts. Wherever I can, I will try to cite sources, but so much of this information is contained in my head, I can't remember where I learned it all.
Myth: Too much protein will make my large breed puppy grow too fast, and hurt him.
Fact: (Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll
It is too little protein that will actually cause skeletal problems in growing puppies.
Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value
Myth: I need to have a specific ratio of calcium to phosphorus or else my puppy will get a growth disorder.
Fact: It is the overall calcium level that affects everything. Calcium excess is the culprit. (same source as above... What can I say? it was a GREAT cumulative study)
The absolute level of calcium in the diet, rather than an imbalance in the calcium/phosphorus ratio, influences skeletal development.2 Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis) with either normal phosphorus(0.9% dry matter basis) or high phosphorus(3% dry matter basis, to maintain a normal calcium/phosphorus ratio) had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease.2 These puppies apparently were unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic calcium excess.3 Further, chronic high calcium intake increased the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis.
Myth: I need to switch my large breed puppy to an adult food at 4-6 mos of age or else he will grow too fast and get a growth disorder.
Fact: (taken from the same source as above) Adult foods are often calorically less dense and have lower protein levels. Therefore, in order to get all that your puppy needs, you would need to feed more of the food. This causes an increase in the calcium levels, which could then result in a growth disorder.
Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium).
Myth: Large breed puppy food is just a marketing scam, and any puppy food or dog food is fine.
Fact: Large breed puppy foods are specifically formulated for controlled growth. These foods contain the appropriate levels of calcium, in addition to the appropriate balance of minerals, fat, and protein to ensure a healthy, steady growing puppy.
Myth: Raw-feeding will cause my puppy to have growth disorders because I can't control the calcium intake.
Fact: Raw feeders actually tend to have very nice, slow, even growing lines. As long as the 10% bone ratio adhered to as the pup grows, this ratio is the proper and precise percent that the pup needs.
Myth: I can find out what levels of specific nutrients are in my kibble by just reading the bag.
Fact: Don't simply rely what is on the bag. When you are researching these numbers, make sure that you are reading the MAX %, not just the minimum. If a max is unavailable to you, look on their website or email the company.
Myth: I need to supplement with Vitamin C/Ester C because my breeder said so because it'll prevent hip dysplasia (or some similar statement).
Fact: First of all, ANY complete, quality kibble should not need supplementing, period. Second, Vitamin C does basically...nothing.
L-ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is necessary for hydroxylation of proline and lysine during biosynthesis of collagen, a major component of ligaments and bones. Food devoid of Vitamin C fed to puppies for 147 to 154 days neither affected growth nor caused skeletal lesions.12 There are no known dietary requirements for Vitamin C in the dog.
Myth: I have a medium-sized dog like a husky or a border collie, so I can feed regular puppy food.
Fact: This is speaking moreso from someone who has read the bags and compared them to the facts, then from an actual study. Medium sized and even small breed puppies can still grow too fast. They may not grow for a long enough period of time to develop some of the awful bowing or knuckling that we large/giant breed owners see, but they are not beyond getting pano or other problems. A small/medium breed puppy is not going to be harmed in any way by eating a large breed puppy food. However, a small/medium breed puppy could be just as susceptible to a growth/skeletal problem while on a regular puppy food.
Myth: Ol' Roy is just as good as Orijen!
Fact: First of all, because of a lack of nutritional density, you'd have to feed quite a bit more of Ol' Roy or any grocery store brand in order to give your pup the proper nutrition. And even then, the other health problems I'm sure you'd encounter would be insanely high because these foods don't get their ingredients from highly digestible sources. A bunch of protein means nothing when it comes from corn and it can't be digested.
Also, these are animals that are going to grow A LOT over a long period of time, they need all the nutrients they can get served up in the proper package (meat, not mystery ingredients). So what is it? Feed 15 cups a day and buy 20 bags a month, or feed 4-6 cups a day and buy 2 bags a month? Hmmm....thinking
Myth: Puppies are meant to be rolly-polly.
Fact: Ugh, this is one of those things that I see in my own breed. It's one thing to have nice puppy chunk, but there is such a thing as an overweight puppy, and no it is not cute it is A BAD THING. Especially in large breed puppy joints, that extra weight is hard. But it seems like in these breeds everybody wants the chunky, big puppy because of course one of the reasons folks get large breeds is to have a large dog. Understand that intentionally beefing up a pup of any breed is wrong and harmful to the pup. I find this is an especially common practice amongst unscrupulous bully breed breeders. If you think your large breed pup is too thin, as long as he or she is not emaciated, he or she is probably fine. Whilst growing, it is better to be a little bit underweight than ANY bit overweight.
Myth: I cannot feed a grainfree kibble as they all have levels of calcium and phosphorus that are too high for my large breed puppy.
Fact: While many grainfree kibbles are inappropriate for large breed puppies (Wellness Core, Taste of the Wild, Canidae GF, Evo, etc) there are grainfree kibbles specifically formulated for large breed puppies. Orijen is one such company.
I also would like to caution those who see a food that is listed for "All Life Stages" and think it will be okay for a large breed puppy. PLEASE PLEASE check the maximum analysis on these foods. Taste of the Wild and Canidae both claim to have grainfree all life stages foods, but when you check out their maximum analysis they are completely inappropriate for a large breed puppy.
Conversely, Orijen also makes 6 Fresh Fish, which is an All Life Stages food and does indeed have the appropriate levels fro a growing puppy.
The rule of thumb is 4-4.5g of calcium per every 1000 calories.
Myth: Wild pups would eat the same thing as the adults, so why bother with a large breed puppy food?
In the wild, a puppy would not be eating the same food day in and day out. The variety alone is natures way of balancing over time. Because we feed the EXACT same thing every single day, there has to be a balance in the amount of nutrients, particularly calcium, as puppies cannot control their absorption of calcium. This is why those who do the raw diet for a LBP do not change the ratios from the adult diet, they just increase the amount the pup gets: the variety allows for that natural balance over time, and helps to prevent excesses or deficiencies.
I did not write this.....I kinda borrowed it from another forum...hope this is OK!
After constantly going around and correcting myths, giving advice, etc, I have decided to compile a thread to help new owners of large breed puppies pick out a proper kibble, dispel any myths, and shoot straight from the hip with facts. Wherever I can, I will try to cite sources, but so much of this information is contained in my head, I can't remember where I learned it all.
Myth: Too much protein will make my large breed puppy grow too fast, and hurt him.
Fact: (Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll
It is too little protein that will actually cause skeletal problems in growing puppies.
Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value
Myth: I need to have a specific ratio of calcium to phosphorus or else my puppy will get a growth disorder.
Fact: It is the overall calcium level that affects everything. Calcium excess is the culprit. (same source as above... What can I say? it was a GREAT cumulative study)
The absolute level of calcium in the diet, rather than an imbalance in the calcium/phosphorus ratio, influences skeletal development.2 Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis) with either normal phosphorus(0.9% dry matter basis) or high phosphorus(3% dry matter basis, to maintain a normal calcium/phosphorus ratio) had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease.2 These puppies apparently were unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic calcium excess.3 Further, chronic high calcium intake increased the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis.
Myth: I need to switch my large breed puppy to an adult food at 4-6 mos of age or else he will grow too fast and get a growth disorder.
Fact: (taken from the same source as above) Adult foods are often calorically less dense and have lower protein levels. Therefore, in order to get all that your puppy needs, you would need to feed more of the food. This causes an increase in the calcium levels, which could then result in a growth disorder.
Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium).
Myth: Large breed puppy food is just a marketing scam, and any puppy food or dog food is fine.
Fact: Large breed puppy foods are specifically formulated for controlled growth. These foods contain the appropriate levels of calcium, in addition to the appropriate balance of minerals, fat, and protein to ensure a healthy, steady growing puppy.
Myth: Raw-feeding will cause my puppy to have growth disorders because I can't control the calcium intake.
Fact: Raw feeders actually tend to have very nice, slow, even growing lines. As long as the 10% bone ratio adhered to as the pup grows, this ratio is the proper and precise percent that the pup needs.
Myth: I can find out what levels of specific nutrients are in my kibble by just reading the bag.
Fact: Don't simply rely what is on the bag. When you are researching these numbers, make sure that you are reading the MAX %, not just the minimum. If a max is unavailable to you, look on their website or email the company.
Myth: I need to supplement with Vitamin C/Ester C because my breeder said so because it'll prevent hip dysplasia (or some similar statement).
Fact: First of all, ANY complete, quality kibble should not need supplementing, period. Second, Vitamin C does basically...nothing.
L-ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is necessary for hydroxylation of proline and lysine during biosynthesis of collagen, a major component of ligaments and bones. Food devoid of Vitamin C fed to puppies for 147 to 154 days neither affected growth nor caused skeletal lesions.12 There are no known dietary requirements for Vitamin C in the dog.
Myth: I have a medium-sized dog like a husky or a border collie, so I can feed regular puppy food.
Fact: This is speaking moreso from someone who has read the bags and compared them to the facts, then from an actual study. Medium sized and even small breed puppies can still grow too fast. They may not grow for a long enough period of time to develop some of the awful bowing or knuckling that we large/giant breed owners see, but they are not beyond getting pano or other problems. A small/medium breed puppy is not going to be harmed in any way by eating a large breed puppy food. However, a small/medium breed puppy could be just as susceptible to a growth/skeletal problem while on a regular puppy food.
Myth: Ol' Roy is just as good as Orijen!
Fact: First of all, because of a lack of nutritional density, you'd have to feed quite a bit more of Ol' Roy or any grocery store brand in order to give your pup the proper nutrition. And even then, the other health problems I'm sure you'd encounter would be insanely high because these foods don't get their ingredients from highly digestible sources. A bunch of protein means nothing when it comes from corn and it can't be digested.
Also, these are animals that are going to grow A LOT over a long period of time, they need all the nutrients they can get served up in the proper package (meat, not mystery ingredients). So what is it? Feed 15 cups a day and buy 20 bags a month, or feed 4-6 cups a day and buy 2 bags a month? Hmmm....thinking
Myth: Puppies are meant to be rolly-polly.
Fact: Ugh, this is one of those things that I see in my own breed. It's one thing to have nice puppy chunk, but there is such a thing as an overweight puppy, and no it is not cute it is A BAD THING. Especially in large breed puppy joints, that extra weight is hard. But it seems like in these breeds everybody wants the chunky, big puppy because of course one of the reasons folks get large breeds is to have a large dog. Understand that intentionally beefing up a pup of any breed is wrong and harmful to the pup. I find this is an especially common practice amongst unscrupulous bully breed breeders. If you think your large breed pup is too thin, as long as he or she is not emaciated, he or she is probably fine. Whilst growing, it is better to be a little bit underweight than ANY bit overweight.
Myth: I cannot feed a grainfree kibble as they all have levels of calcium and phosphorus that are too high for my large breed puppy.
Fact: While many grainfree kibbles are inappropriate for large breed puppies (Wellness Core, Taste of the Wild, Canidae GF, Evo, etc) there are grainfree kibbles specifically formulated for large breed puppies. Orijen is one such company.
I also would like to caution those who see a food that is listed for "All Life Stages" and think it will be okay for a large breed puppy. PLEASE PLEASE check the maximum analysis on these foods. Taste of the Wild and Canidae both claim to have grainfree all life stages foods, but when you check out their maximum analysis they are completely inappropriate for a large breed puppy.
Conversely, Orijen also makes 6 Fresh Fish, which is an All Life Stages food and does indeed have the appropriate levels fro a growing puppy.
The rule of thumb is 4-4.5g of calcium per every 1000 calories.
Myth: Wild pups would eat the same thing as the adults, so why bother with a large breed puppy food?
In the wild, a puppy would not be eating the same food day in and day out. The variety alone is natures way of balancing over time. Because we feed the EXACT same thing every single day, there has to be a balance in the amount of nutrients, particularly calcium, as puppies cannot control their absorption of calcium. This is why those who do the raw diet for a LBP do not change the ratios from the adult diet, they just increase the amount the pup gets: the variety allows for that natural balance over time, and helps to prevent excesses or deficiencies.
Siriol, Bramble, Izzie and Isla.
Re: I know this should be in the nutrition forum but....
My conclusion, the article supports the raw diet. Better check this out for those feeding their dogs a diet that matches their vegetarian diet. I wonder if fused spine condition would be related too the skeletal problems mentioned; many dogs seem to develop this problem later on in life.
Thanks Sirchow for putting yourself on the line, this subject has been coming up a lot on what to feed.
Good sign that people are as concerned about what their pets eat, as they are about their own diet.
I have read in the Health Forum some owners take feeding very seriously, there were Links to sites devoted to dog diets. Makes me feel guilty that I feed my Chows in a way that is most convenient to me.
Thanks Sirchow for putting yourself on the line, this subject has been coming up a lot on what to feed.
Good sign that people are as concerned about what their pets eat, as they are about their own diet.
I have read in the Health Forum some owners take feeding very seriously, there were Links to sites devoted to dog diets. Makes me feel guilty that I feed my Chows in a way that is most convenient to me.
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Re: I know this should be in the nutrition forum but....
Some I agree with, some I dont. Vitamin C may not have an impact on skeletal development but it is wrong to say it does not do anything. It does a lot of good things. and it is highly perishable.
It amazes me how people are too confused with what a dog needs. And also more amazed why veterinarians (even in my place!) shy away from feeding bones (cooked or uncooked) to puppies when they should be trained at the earliest to munch and chew on those. = THEN NYLABONE comes in! = marketing, right?
REAL BONES: It helps in the bone development of a puppy. In doing so, ONE DOES NOT WORRY ABOUT EXCESS CALCIUM going to the body. I feed cooked bones (left overs) ALL THE TIME! and I know fellow countrymen also does, and no one's hurt. Dogs that were trained at the earliest age don't choke on such. Dogs who are untrained - never seen a bone - ends up in the emergency after gulping it with no chewing...tsk tsk.
Dogs are carnivores, let us go back to the basic principles. If you are a canine, you need meat and bones (be it cooked or raw)
Puppy kibble are made in such as way that it can be fed in smaller portions yet provide the protein needs. Feeding an adult kibble (lower protein)
(this is IF ONE is feeding kibble exclusively) is advisable only IF your pup can eat all that is needed - if you know how to compute - otherwise, dont interchange it. Then the pup's stomach will become distended.
Large PUPPY and small breed PUPPY are just marketing ploy. maybe the size of the kibble is the one basis for such description - not the protein.
Reading on the label , one needs to be discerning and well - able to read. A minimum and a maximum are two different things. So make sure you are reading the correct one - depends on which info you need.
Another odd practice is getting dogs to be vegetarian! I mean, since when did dogs became vegetarians? And on the other side, they say, don't feed grains.. rice and corn and wheat are grains. They can safely eat such but never exclusively. It will hurt them if they feed on it 100% or 80%. MY GUESS, why dogs have so many medical health problems in the area of bone structure (dysplasia, brittleness etc) is because they've been weaned from their natural diet many generations back. Kibble can only be a substitute. Thus I admire those who practices holistic way of feeding their pooches. Sometimes, they go the wrong way by making their dog eat a lot of potatoes, carrots and green beans! when it should be meat and bones at the heart of such meals.
It amazes me how people are too confused with what a dog needs. And also more amazed why veterinarians (even in my place!) shy away from feeding bones (cooked or uncooked) to puppies when they should be trained at the earliest to munch and chew on those. = THEN NYLABONE comes in! = marketing, right?
REAL BONES: It helps in the bone development of a puppy. In doing so, ONE DOES NOT WORRY ABOUT EXCESS CALCIUM going to the body. I feed cooked bones (left overs) ALL THE TIME! and I know fellow countrymen also does, and no one's hurt. Dogs that were trained at the earliest age don't choke on such. Dogs who are untrained - never seen a bone - ends up in the emergency after gulping it with no chewing...tsk tsk.
Dogs are carnivores, let us go back to the basic principles. If you are a canine, you need meat and bones (be it cooked or raw)
Puppy kibble are made in such as way that it can be fed in smaller portions yet provide the protein needs. Feeding an adult kibble (lower protein)
(this is IF ONE is feeding kibble exclusively) is advisable only IF your pup can eat all that is needed - if you know how to compute - otherwise, dont interchange it. Then the pup's stomach will become distended.
Large PUPPY and small breed PUPPY are just marketing ploy. maybe the size of the kibble is the one basis for such description - not the protein.
Reading on the label , one needs to be discerning and well - able to read. A minimum and a maximum are two different things. So make sure you are reading the correct one - depends on which info you need.
Another odd practice is getting dogs to be vegetarian! I mean, since when did dogs became vegetarians? And on the other side, they say, don't feed grains.. rice and corn and wheat are grains. They can safely eat such but never exclusively. It will hurt them if they feed on it 100% or 80%. MY GUESS, why dogs have so many medical health problems in the area of bone structure (dysplasia, brittleness etc) is because they've been weaned from their natural diet many generations back. Kibble can only be a substitute. Thus I admire those who practices holistic way of feeding their pooches. Sometimes, they go the wrong way by making their dog eat a lot of potatoes, carrots and green beans! when it should be meat and bones at the heart of such meals.