Dog going mad/biting

kebnov · Post by **kebnov** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:45 pm

First post, so I apologise if this has been covered.
We own a male, recently (a month ago) neutered chow who we've had since a puppy. He's now 16 months old.
Most of the time, he's absolutely adorable and trustworthy, being everything we want in a dog.

However about nine months ago he began to sometimes go absolutely demented when out on a walk.

I think he's over-excited as there's nothing vicious about it: he's runs around us grabbing our coat and sleeves, he jumps up, mouths and nips hard enough to pierce the skin and has had both of us bleeding.

Hopefully it might have something to do with his age and he'll grow out of it, but I'm not banking on it. He has never growled, he's not possessive, and this behaviour never happens indoors, but when it does happen, for about a minute he's almost uncontrollable. I'd say this happens about once a week. We give him three walks a day - in total about two hours walking - we don't let him off the leash as he's a runner and his recall is poor and is as deaf as most chows when he finds something to interest him)and both my wife and I have been "bitten".

Some triggers seem to be strong wind blowing in his face (we're in England, bad weather is unavoidable

) and not going in a direction he wants, although I must stress that nine times out of ten, these triggers won't set him off.

Ignoring the behaviour is impossible because he does mouth hard and we need to defend ourselves: shouting and pushing away sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a sharp tap on the nose or telling him to sit will work, sometimes it doesn't.

He is quite a boisterous dog though quickly calms down and becomes "chowlike" again once greeted. He's great with other dogs, wanting only to play. We went to obedience classes when he was younger and he was OK though quickly lost interest. He's normally pretty obedient.

I know we could buy a muzzle - and we're almost at that point now - though I see it more as a sticking plaster rather than a cure.

Has anyone suffered similar problem? And anyone managed to cure it?

Larry Harris · Post by **Larry Harris** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:46 am

How are his other doggie manners? Does he sit on command? Carry a favorite toy when walking, something like a rope chew toy. When he starts to misbehave give the sit command. Hold him in this position until he calms down. May take a bit? Until he understands, when he goes to bite you hand him the toy instead then have him sit. A dog trainer and learning basic doggie skills may help him be be a better boy.

Larry

kebnov · Post by **kebnov** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:55 am

Larry Harris wrote:How are his other doggie manners? Does he sit on command? Carry a favorite toy when walking, something like a rope chew toy. When he starts to misbehave give the sit command. Hold him in this position until he calms down. May take a bit? Until he understands, when he goes to bite you hand him the toy instead then have him sit. A dog trainer and learning basic doggie skills may help him be be a better boy.

Larry

hi
No, he's not interested in carrying stuff in his mouth, I've tried to get him to walk with sticks, towels, soft toys, rubber bones, ropes etc but with no luck. He drops them almost immediately and just walks off.
Soft toys are his favourite play toys, but to be honest unless they're brand new, he loses interest pretty quickly when anything else is going on.
He does sit on command - most of the time. He will also wait, leave, lie down and stay most of the time.
We've tried to distract him with food (cheese) when he kicks off, but I think that while it works better than anythng else, it's rewarding his bad behaviour, so I'm not 100% that it's a good idea.
I have spoken to a friend who had the sam sort of problem with a Rottie, and it eventually grew out of it. Here's hoping.
Thanks for the reply, we will keep trying.

ciaobella · Post by **ciaobella** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:54 pm

Understand, my rescue chow is by no means typical and I didn't have her as a chowling. I have noticed with her, though, that when she gets overexcited on leash (usually over some potential prey item), if I acknowledge whatever she's spazzing out over ("hey, did you see that cat, rabbit, squirrel, lawyer") nine times out of ten, she's content to move on. Just wants to share the experience with me and make sure I don't miss anything.

Just an observation, not much help. The helpful ones will no doubt be along shortly.

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:21 pm

I have no personal experience with this but DH's family dog used to occationally lose all manners whilst out on leash and jump up on them / bite HARD. They spoke with a trainer who recommended trying distraction techniques (like showing the cheese, then asking him to sit, shake a paw, lie down etc to actually get the treat) If this failed they were told to stand on the leash then slide it up so the dog was forced to lie down. They would hold him there until he chilled out. This was a drastic measure but they were having to defend themselves against the dog & were concerned about other people being bitten. However, it did seem to work & he quit after a few of these. It maybe worth chatting to a behaviourist about your boy?

ciaobella · Post by **ciaobella** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:39 pm

That was very helpful, Layla

kebnov · Post by **kebnov** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:13 pm

Thanks for the help guys, certainly distraction seems to be the way to go, although further advice will always be appreciated.

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:21 pm

Sounds chillingly familiar. Do you know if he wants to "zoomie" and finds himself on a leash so attacks the holder of the leash? Zoomie is a term used on this site for a bout of crazy run by chows. My Leonora(19m/s) would sometimes attack the holder of the leash when she wants freedom. It can happen often right after BM, she'd go running wild and jump on me. Or, when she has leash frustration, she wants to go one way and find that the leash is restricting her, so she starts chewing on the leash and then attacking the leash holder. In both cases, telling her to "wait" or "sit" works, most of the time. But sometimes it would not register & I have to grab the leash v shortly & restrain her movement. Initally I tried to hold her by her cheek fur but my arms were bruised like a battered wife and it just made her more adjitated. My dog walking gear(jeans, ski jacket, boots) all got holes/tear from her teeth. I am lucky I live in a climate which allows me to wear a ski jacket in the summer and not look totally silly or homeless. Stepping on the leash and pulling the dog down I think is easier said than done. I've been saying we'd consult a behaviorist but haven't yet.

I was wondering if it is because of the pent up energy. She needs to zoomie, but can't fully in the house as we've got wooden floors & have no fenced yard. I say so more now after seeing how much energy she has playing w/ a 3m/s foster puppy(Neelaa). We got Neelaa on Saturday, at first Leo was apprehensive, but last couple of days, they started to play like crazy. Basically at close to 2yr old, Leonora is still a puppy at heart tho not in size(55lb).

Sorry, I can't be much of a help, but I share your frustration. I am all ears, do inform us if you find a remedy for it.

Big Baby Leonora & mum in Foggy SF
___________________________________

"The coldest winter I ever spent was summer in San Francisco" Mark Twain

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:41 pm

LEO's mum wrote:Stepping on the leash and pulling the dog down I think is easier said than done.

That is very true. I'm not sure I could do it, but DH & FIL are far stronger & prehaps confident than I......

kebnov · Post by **kebnov** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:02 pm

Leo's Mum

This is almost exactly what we're experiencing, and in many ways, selfish though it might seem, I'm glad to hear it as it means there's nothing really wrong with our boy, just another quirk.

Certainly he does try and bound away at times, and the fact we don't let him off the lead doesn't help I know.

He's astonishingly strong, far stronger than I'd expected and much stronger than some bigger dogs I've walked in the past. Maybe it's that low centre of gravity, but I'm a big bloke and he's pulled me over before when he's set off and I haven't quite managed to get my balance in time.
While I can hold him down, my wife would struggle so I much prefer the distraction option to the holding him in place by the collar.

Here's a picture of Rocky at about 12 months - he's a 16 months now. (I'll do a quick life story over in the gallery if I get the time - puppy to today type of thing.)

Mouthing/demented or not, how can we fail to love him!!!

By kebnov at 2007-07-12

ciaobella · Post by **ciaobella** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:25 pm

Aw, he's an angel.

Chikka, that must be miserable for you. I've seen your picture, and you are tiny.

shandilady · Post by **shandilady** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:45 pm

Hiya, sorry to hear about your troubles. You might try and longer lead so the dog can do some running. I sorta run but I could not keep up with my girl if I had to. So long lead and she kinda runs around and back / forth. I also use a halti on her . Helps with control since I am very small and she weighs about 55 pounds. She has never really used any teeth on me but her sister used to try to herd people. Small nippy bites that could really hurt. I just suggest halti maybe and long lead for more exercise. I just carry the long lead in a bag with me. Good luck.

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:14 am

Larry Harris wrote:How are his other doggie manners? Does he sit on command? Carry a favorite toy when walking, something like a rope chew toy. When he starts to misbehave give the sit command. Hold him in this position until he calms down. May take a bit? Until he understands, when he goes to bite you hand him the toy instead then have him sit. A dog trainer and learning basic doggie skills may help him be be a better boy.

Larry

I am here to tell you that this is the BEST idea and suggestion EVER!! I have had problems with Sid and grabbing at my clothes and my arms and belly look like I'm an abuse victim. I have bruises all the time! I tried EVERYTHING.. time outs, ignoring, NO, no bite, sticking my finger in his mouth to gag him (good idea but I'm always sticking my fingers in his mouth to take out fur balls so he's way too used to that).. WELL!! Someone lent me this book called the "dog bible" or something like that. Believe it or not, there is a section actually titles ZOOMIES!!!!! It said:

Don't stop them from having zoomies because sooner or later they will get too old to "zoom" and you'll miss how cute it is, enjoy it while it lasts. So, if your dog is grabbing at your clothes during a zoomie or excited play keep a "tug rope" when the dog starts to grab for you.. as soon as the mouth opens stick the rope in his/her mouth...

IT IS WORKING!!! I now carry that rope where ever we go. If he grabs for me I stick the rope in his mouth. I do it EVERY time. EVERY EVERY EVERY time!! It's only been 3 or 4 days but he's getting it!! HONEST it's working!!

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:42 am

Hey Cheri,

Glad to hear that your brusies are getting better. Clever Sid

Layla

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:53 am

OMG!! I had to do something!! On Monday he grabbed the sleeve of my sweatshirt and got a GOOD bit of my arm too!! OUCH! It was the first time he actually bit THAT hard!! He bit so hard it left a welt! That was it for me!! We left the park and he KNEW he was in trouble! He gave me the "sad face" all night!!

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:57 am

Milo's doing that when he plays, only really with DH though. We'll be trying that one I think

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:06 am

Cheri, can you reiterate. Rope, is that one of those chew ropes about a foot long? Also how long a leash is Sid on? See how eager I am to find out the details.... sigh

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:12 am

The only thing I can "liken" it to is that when they're playing and playing 'rough' it's no different then when they're playing with another dog. I swear Sid thinks my clothes are fur. So, he doesn't really know that there's actually something UNDER the clothes that he's pinching!!

Sid loves Zoomies at the park!! He will run the full length of his 50 feet and then run full speed back at me, leap and grab for me! I NOW have the leash looped on one wrist and the rope in the other hand. When he runs back I hold the rope out.

I even take it with me when I drop him off at my parents before I go to work. Sid is like a spoiled two year old. As I leave he will grab at me! He will wrap both his paws around my ankles, grab a hold of my shoes or pant legs as if to say "no, don't leave me".. NOW when EVER he starts to do that.. The rope goes in his mouth.

SO, Kebnov.. even though Rockie may not have a favorite toy (neither does Sid).. I use the rope more as a 'tool' instead of a toy. I'm using it to show him that it's NOT ok to grab at me but it IS ok to grab at the rope.

Smilla · Post by **Smilla** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:56 am

Where I used to live, a friend and I would walk together often. Her dog, mikka, did the same thing (not sure if it still does)..

She tried different things, but it would easily get more aggitated.

We finally decided to use some 'calming signals'. When Mikka would build up to or have one of these zoomies, my friend would look away, sit down, yawn, pick grass. It actually worked! Every time Mikka laid down and looked at her hands picking grass.., we would remain for a bit, continuing with calming signals and then slowly walk on.

We also tried to think of other things ourselves, as a way to remain calm and then just ignored that it happened.

I know Mikka started doing it less, but am not sure how far they have gotten..

Lise Carreno · Post by **Lise Carreno** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:34 am

I can't add to the advice as it's already so good. But, I can share that at 16 weeks, my Mia has had the zoomies since the day after I got her at 8 weeks.

I also try to give her the full 25 feet of lead so that she can zoomie herself out. (we also don't have a fenced in yard - so I want her to get some good excersize.)

And, as suggested, I also turn away if she gets physical with me...like jumping on me or trying to grab my legs.

I does work.

Piff Poff · Post by **Piff Poff** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:03 am

Hi, I just wanted to say that my Henry sometimes does the jumping nipping thing. He is now 14/15 months old and we have just done (in the process of doing) obedience training - he didn't do the jumping nipping thing before. My trainer has told me that when he jumps at me I should raise my knee so his chest hits my knee, we have been working on this and when it looks like he is about to jump, I raise my knee and Henry either changes his mind or jumps softer (if that makes sense).

Quite often this behaviour happens at the very beggining of our walk (excitement?) Or at the very end (stalling tactics?) and sometimes when its windy - I think he thinks something is behind him. During our training sessions I have been wearing leather rope gloves. Henry has started nipping at these, I am thinking I need to start to yelp as I did when he was a puppy to stop the nipping.

As for the obedience training - it works when Henry is in the right mood and he is still a nightmare to heel and when we approach people - especialy if they have a dog too, he just wants to meet and play. Very interested in the Halty idea if anyone can advise?