Gentle Leader harness and "clicker" training

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gChambers
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Gentle Leader harness and "clicker" training

Post by gChambers »

Hello. I’m new to the neighborhood. :D

It’s time for my 4 month old pup, Genghis – a handsome cream Chow, to begin basic obedience training and I’m looking for advice and/or opinions.

I’m planning on doing the training myself. I’ve trained several dogs in the past and attended training classes with Singa – our last Chow. I believe that I’m qualified to handle training based on past experience.

My goals are rather modest – with one exception. I’ll be satisfied with good response to the basics – heal, sit, stay, down and down-stay. Genghis has already proven to be willing to go with the basics as I’ve been informally working with him since 10 wks.

The challenge, I believe will be in maintaining a reliable recall off leash. Note that I don’t intend to normally let him off leash but there are times when I do allow him to run and explore freely.

A reliable recall will be a challenge as he has recently begun exhibiting a fascination for squirrels. This surprised me somewhat as Singa did not exhibit the slightest interest in the pesky rodents. Genghis has already dashed into the somehat busy street that runs past the house while chasing these pests.

Ok, enough of the introduction. Here is point of my query: its been many years since I’ve had to train a puppy (Singa lived to 13 years of age). In the interim there seems to have developed a new positive training method based on non-coercive methods called “clicker training”. I’m sure you are all aware of this method and probably think that I’ve been living in a cave all this time. But, honestly, I only just became to be aware of it.

What is the general opinion of clicker training a Chow in general and specifically using a “Gentle Leader” harness with this method? I should mention at this point that Genghis is extremely touch sensitive and responds very quickly to rather subtle leash corrections already. I believe that he would be quite easy to train with the traditional “choke collar” corrections in a formal training environment. However, I don’t want to fall back on the negative input method if something more positive would work better.

My sister, who is deaf, has been doing service training with her black Lab for over a year with the clicker method. She’s very upbeat about the method. Problem is a Lab is not a Chow. I’ve yet to find any food treat that Genghis would come running for.

Any opinions? Suggestions? Anyone use a Gentle Leader harness with their Chow? Of course, a Chow’s snout is much shorter than a normal dog so I’m not sure how the “muzzle” (not really, but anyway) part would stay in place.
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arnis
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Post by arnis »

wow, i am dumbfounded.... my chow. 14 years old has the name Ghengis Kahn.
I just call him Kahn for short. goes much better when i am barking the orders.
As for training methods? i use a choker coller... It is not an E collar or pronged. those methods are just crewl. i believe the choker just helps by not lettting the dog slip out and if it wont stop pulling will eventually pass out. ( never had this happen to me tho) I first started training threw a profesional like you did.. i have trained 3 since.... good luck.
P.S. i have been lucky that my dogs have all loved regular milk bones....
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Taz
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Post by Taz »

I use clicker training on my Chow..
And he love it. :) He actually loves to train(?) .
He is only 7 month old, but he knows the basics and more.
I will NEVER use an choker coller, I don't think it's nessesary if you train
the dog well..
I just use a normal collar. Im for positiv training, and any training including punish I don't like.
I can go with my Chow unleashed. Even in the City, he walks besides me and keeps eyecontact.

I would explain more about the clicker if I didn't have so much problem writing it in english. :oops:

But if you have any questions, just ask, and I will try to answer.. :D
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Post by WorknChowz »

I think it's great that you want to explore the wonderful world of positive reinforcement! You'll go much farther with a Chow when there is no force and mistrust involved. :)

Have you read the book "Culture Clash"? It is a verrry good intro for thinking a different way about training.

Also, while I admire your confidence in your ability and want to try it yourself, a young Chow needs that group experience and shouldn't miss out on any socialization opportunities.

I too would use a regular, flat, buckle type collar or if you are having problems with your pup slipping out of his collar, try a "No-Slip" or Martingale collar.
I have yet to meet a Chow Chow who would be so "Lab-like" and undignified that he or she would tolerate something squishing his face. No I don't like head halters for regular training. IMO, Halters are for leading livestock, not for a happy training experience.

I'm sure if you do some checking around, you can find a good positive training class close to home. Heck, even Petsmart can teach you the basics of clicker training.
I don't use a clicker, either. I use a word and my voice to "mark" correct behavior, just as another trainer would use the click. I do hand out clickers for some of my students who just can't seem to open their mouths and say "yes" or "Good" at the right moment. :? Timing is EVERYTHING!

Have FUN with your pup and give him a break with the squirrel thing. Asking him to come for a cookie when he is deep in prey drive, is like your spouse asking you to take out the garbage when you are watching your favorite show on the Telly. :lol:
Start teaching a recall when you KNOW you are the most interesting thing in the room, then progress slowly so that he experiences many successes. It will become a natural happy thing for him to come dashing back to you, but never trust him off lead to choose you and your cookie, over a fantastic game of chase the rodent. :wink:
I'm glad that you learned the value of always having a leash on your pup with just a scare and that your pup wasn't run over...next time he might not be so lucky. :(
Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all...
gChambers
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Post by gChambers »

Wow, so many thoughtful replies – I’m overwhelmed! I’m new to this forum so I hope that this reply goes to the group.

Arnis – Yes, Genghis was named after the ancient conqueror (some would say tyrant) of the known world at the time. One can not deny that the great Khan was truly a master tactician and warrior. Somewhat like the breed that we cherish, he demanded respect but was not without worrisome behavior.

Taz -- please do share your insights. The time is right to begin formal training and I’m very concerned about beginning on the correct note. You appear to have no problem expressing yourself.

Off Topic – your avatar is stunning! An aside – I used to create 3d animation. Your rendering is wonderful.

WorknChowz – I’ve not read Culture Clash but will immediately order it from the local library. I am acutely aware of the need for socialization and make it a point to bring him to the “dog park” every week end. We are blessed with a local fenced public space that allows dogs and owners to roam freely on weekend mornings.

Genghis is a typical Chow. He spends his time patrolling the perimeter and has no time or patience for the “gang”. There will typically be 40 to 60 dogs at any one time romping and interacting in the park. He has a few pals – a beautiful Rhodesian Ridgeback and a matriarchal Bulldog in particular – but for the most part he is most content on the edges by himself.

I’m not particularly interested in the hardware used in the “clicker’ technique, but rather in the theory of the approach, and, on a practical level, is it “right” for my dog?

I’m sure we will continue this string.
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WorknChowz
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Post by WorknChowz »

I am acutely aware of the need for socialization and make it a point to bring him to the “dog park” every week end. We are blessed with a local fenced public space that allows dogs and owners to roam freely on weekend mornings.
Please be aware that a "dog park" is not teaching socialization, but how to run with a pack of dogs, establish heirarchy and too many times how to be aggressive, or fearful.
I have had many students come to me that had lovely dog social dogs only to have a bad experience at a dog park and wind up with a dog that feels he must protect himself at all costs and puts on a big ugly display whenever encountering another dog.
Chow Chows are often a target for other dogs to attack. Thier stilted gate, lack of "doggie smell", the high and mighty set of the tail, and the hard to read canine body language through all that fur. Nothing good can come of this. I simply don't take the chance with my dogs.

Your little guy would have just as much fun on a long line with you at a regular park, exploring and playing and bonding with YOU.

What I mean by socialization is taking the pup many different places and teaching him how to behave in these places. A good example is a group class.

I'm glad you'll be reading the book. It's excellent. Not a "how to" per say, but a primer on the theory and methodology. If I remember right, there are some specifics on training near the back of the book.
If I am mistaken about that last part...please forgive me. I read a LOT of books. :roll:
Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all...
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Post by Samorrathis »

We have just completed 6 weeks training and have used the Gentle Leader and also the choke. Nanuk absolutly hated the Gentle Leader however was responsive to the choke. I personally did not like the choke and continued to look for ther options cause a regualr collar wasn't cutting it. Just recently we have tryed the sense-ation harness and he acts like a diffrent dog. He doesn't have a fit when we put it on and he is so responsive! The harness is a no force training method. Worth checking it out I wish we had tryed it sooner. Here's the link
http://www.softouchconcepts.com
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Taz
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Post by Taz »

Me and my Chow training with the Clicker. :)
Image

The only thing he will work for is water. (And sometimes Royal Canin)
He is kind of strange.. :P
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Post by WorknChowz »

Taz wrote:Me and my Chow training with the Clicker. :)
Image

The only thing he will work for is water. (And sometimes Royal Canin)
He is kind of strange.. :P
Wow Taz. That is nice attentive heeling! Congrats on finding what works for you and your Chow Chow.
Working for water? That's a new one. :lol:
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Post by Jazzy »

When I first got Avis, I used a regular harness lead and that was terrible. She was walking one way and I was walking the other and pulling, tugging, etc. I started using the choke collar, but didn't like to use it on short bathroom breaks (but she was still pulling with the halter on those trips). I got a collar that has the same technique as a choker, but is nylon and doesn't really choke. She can't pull out of it, and she walks wonderfully. So no choking and no pulling (win-win).

Just found the tag, it's a Wolters collar. http://www.wolters-cat-dog.de
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Post by Taz »

WorknChowz wrote:
Taz wrote:Me and my Chow training with the Clicker. :)
Image

The only thing he will work for is water. (And sometimes Royal Canin)
He is kind of strange.. :P
Wow Taz. That is nice attentive heeling! Congrats on finding what works for you and your Chow Chow.
Working for water? That's a new one. :lol:
Thanks.. :D
I'm very proud of him. :)
When I tell people that he works for water, they laugh and doesn't always believe me.. :P
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Post by Mandy »

I have found that in my obedience class that there are several dogs that react to Chewie negatively even though he does nothing to antagonize that behavior. I assumed it was because of the reasons listed above but it is nice to hear that confirmed.

I use a "choke" chain in obedience class and on some of our walks. But I don't use it alone to "correct" the behaviors as everyone in my class does. Before I went in for the training I brought Chewie in with me and introduced him to the trainers and explained my hesitation to the strict correction method of training. Chewie and I have developed a great relationship combining minor correction and rewards. He'll do anything for a good treat! He walks in a perfect heel and sits, stays, comes (slowly, ;) and many other commands. I still hesitate with the choke chain though, because I don't like what it does to the fur. Even when I go through a whole hour walk with no correction at all, I still find a tiny bit of fur on the collar. I'm definitely going to take a look at that sense-ation harness!

I enjoy taking Chewie to the dog park only when we go with a group of dogs that we are already familiar with. Then he can play with those dogs that already know him and not have a negative encounter as stated above.

Mandy & Chewie
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arnis
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Post by arnis »

you can get choke collars made of rolled nylon, helps not mat fur. when i need leash for Kahn i use both collars. I guess that method has caught on because now when you buy one of those retractable leashes it comes with a choker (nylon but not rolled) and is suggests both collars be used in case one lets go.
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