Sibling rivalry
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Sibling rivalry
We got an 8 week old chow puppy in February 2012 (Stuffy). We then got his brother Bear in September 2012. The same person who had Bear had the other brother, Fozzie, and we got him, also, in November 2012. Stuffy was neutered in June 2012 and Bear and Fozzie were neutered in November 2012. Bear and Fozzie lived in the same home from 8 weeks of age until we got Bear in September. I don't know just how they were treated in that home.
Stuffy gets along fine with both Bear and Fozzie. Bear attacks Fozzie – rarely, we have been able to see what triggers it (Fozzie eating, me petting Fozzie) but the majority of the time, Fozzie isn't even looking in Bear's direction and Bear will out of the blue attack him. I have pulled Bear off of him when this has happened.
We now play "musical dogs" in that either Bear or Fozzie is in the living room with a baby gate in the doorway while Stuffy and whichever one isn't in the living room is in the rest of the house. We alternate each time they go outside to go potty and we alternate each night while we sleep. Each day we spend some time with each of them on a leash while we are in the same room. They can sometimes be laying down mere inches apart with no problems. But sometimes, again, Fozzie not even looking in Bear's direction and Bear will try to attack him – however, because he is on a leash, we are able to stop that from happening.
We did have a short period of time where we had them all together in the house about 75% of the time (not when we were gone or sleeping) and there were "only" about 3 attacks during that time. But then one night while we were gone for a few hours, when we came home, Fozzie somehow "broke out" of the living room and it was obvious there had been a fight (no blood, but lots of hair and wet necks – Stuffy was obviously not involved in it at all). This had happened a few times before where the one in the living room "broke out" and when we got home, all three were together but those times it was obvious there had been no problems. But ever since the time where the obvious fight had occurred, we have not had them all together without leashes.
Bear is not inherently an aggressive dog – he sees other dogs when we go for walks and he doesn't even bark at them and he gets along with Stuffy just fine (although we do have to be careful with 2 of our cats that he tries to chase – our third cat has showed him who is boss and he doesn't dare mess with her). Fozzie has gotten somewhat to the point the last time Bear attacked him that he wants to fight back now. I swear it seems like Bear would probably be okay with any other dog (although this has never been put to the test) – except for Fozzie. Any suggestions would be appreciated more than words can convey.
One thing I find strange is that at times, they will each stand on each of their side of the gate and Bear will lick Fozzie's face – very, very friendly. Sometimes he'll then change to growling and nipping at Fozzie, but nothing like he does when he has attacked Fozzie and when he does that, I make him sit and tell him what a good boy he is. He usually then jumps back up on the gate and is nice to Fozzie again. However, I know very well that if they were both in the same room – whole bodies – he would definitely attack Fozzie. The first time he did that – licking Fozzie's face over the gate – I was terrified he would tear Fozzie's face off! But he does this quite often now and as he is doing that, I pet him and tell him how good he is. But again, there are still the growling times as well.
Previously, we had 4 chows (we lost 2 to old age and 2 to cancer) – I never realized just how fortunate we were that they all got along fine. Two of them were brothers, then we also had a female and a male chow mix.
Both Bear and Fozzie detest their time in the room by themselves – if they could only understand English (especially Bear) and could understand that none of them would ever have to be in a room by themselves if they would get along, I know they would do ANYTHING not to have to be isolated this way.
We really could not afford a behaviorist - however, we saved up and hired one and I am still in shock. She never even observed them together and her report states "My primary recommendation would be to place Fozzie or to consider euthanizing Bear. This is the only way you will have a fully integrated peaceful household." So we spent a lot of money to be told to either get rid of one dog or kill the other. This was just last week. I think I am still in shock that a "professional" said such a horrible, nasty thing - and without even observing them! (She is certified, etc.) She then proceeded to show me how to teach the down command and the leave it command and suggested a follow up visit. (NEVER!) Yes, there are times that I cannot force issues with Bear because I get a little scared of him but nothing that would EVER make a death warrant suitable! He even got ahold of one of our cats one time (VERY scary) and had her in his mouth and was shaking her - I ran up to him, grabbed him by the extra skin on his back and shook him until he let her go - and just like with Fozzie - no blood, just fur. There has NEVER been any wounds but I just worry that all it takes is once. (We now keep our cats in a large room to be sure they are all safe.)
Yes, we have had to re-arrange our lives a lot - however, Bear has actually come a long way since we first got him. He was absolutely terrified of a collar and leash when we first got him - he now walks as if he were trained for years. We used to have 2 gates up so they were high enough that Bear and Fozzie couldn't touch one another - we now have just one. Bear is a very loving dog 99% of the time and he is probably the most intelligent dog I have ever had in my life. He can have impulse control when he wants to (if I have a short lead on him, I have already seen him run towards the gate to growl, then have seen him think to himself "No, this lead is on me and she can get me away very fast so I am not going to do it." And he walks away.) He taught himself that when he comes in from going outside and it is time to bring Fozzie out, he didn't like being held - so totally on his own, he started going in the bathroom, looking at me as if to say "Yes, I know you have to bring Fozzie out - go ahead and close the door and I'll be fine in here."
I’m sorry this ended up being such a long message but it has been almost 10 months now and we are just getting nowhere and I am looking anywhere and everywhere for any possible help for this situation. We have tried the nothing in life is free system as well as we could. I do make sure he sits at the door and allows me to go first at all times, I have him sit before he is fed, etc., etc.
P.S. Giving any of them up will never be an option.
I have 2 short videos of one of their fights but I don't know if it is allowed to upload files like that?
Stuffy gets along fine with both Bear and Fozzie. Bear attacks Fozzie – rarely, we have been able to see what triggers it (Fozzie eating, me petting Fozzie) but the majority of the time, Fozzie isn't even looking in Bear's direction and Bear will out of the blue attack him. I have pulled Bear off of him when this has happened.
We now play "musical dogs" in that either Bear or Fozzie is in the living room with a baby gate in the doorway while Stuffy and whichever one isn't in the living room is in the rest of the house. We alternate each time they go outside to go potty and we alternate each night while we sleep. Each day we spend some time with each of them on a leash while we are in the same room. They can sometimes be laying down mere inches apart with no problems. But sometimes, again, Fozzie not even looking in Bear's direction and Bear will try to attack him – however, because he is on a leash, we are able to stop that from happening.
We did have a short period of time where we had them all together in the house about 75% of the time (not when we were gone or sleeping) and there were "only" about 3 attacks during that time. But then one night while we were gone for a few hours, when we came home, Fozzie somehow "broke out" of the living room and it was obvious there had been a fight (no blood, but lots of hair and wet necks – Stuffy was obviously not involved in it at all). This had happened a few times before where the one in the living room "broke out" and when we got home, all three were together but those times it was obvious there had been no problems. But ever since the time where the obvious fight had occurred, we have not had them all together without leashes.
Bear is not inherently an aggressive dog – he sees other dogs when we go for walks and he doesn't even bark at them and he gets along with Stuffy just fine (although we do have to be careful with 2 of our cats that he tries to chase – our third cat has showed him who is boss and he doesn't dare mess with her). Fozzie has gotten somewhat to the point the last time Bear attacked him that he wants to fight back now. I swear it seems like Bear would probably be okay with any other dog (although this has never been put to the test) – except for Fozzie. Any suggestions would be appreciated more than words can convey.
One thing I find strange is that at times, they will each stand on each of their side of the gate and Bear will lick Fozzie's face – very, very friendly. Sometimes he'll then change to growling and nipping at Fozzie, but nothing like he does when he has attacked Fozzie and when he does that, I make him sit and tell him what a good boy he is. He usually then jumps back up on the gate and is nice to Fozzie again. However, I know very well that if they were both in the same room – whole bodies – he would definitely attack Fozzie. The first time he did that – licking Fozzie's face over the gate – I was terrified he would tear Fozzie's face off! But he does this quite often now and as he is doing that, I pet him and tell him how good he is. But again, there are still the growling times as well.
Previously, we had 4 chows (we lost 2 to old age and 2 to cancer) – I never realized just how fortunate we were that they all got along fine. Two of them were brothers, then we also had a female and a male chow mix.
Both Bear and Fozzie detest their time in the room by themselves – if they could only understand English (especially Bear) and could understand that none of them would ever have to be in a room by themselves if they would get along, I know they would do ANYTHING not to have to be isolated this way.
We really could not afford a behaviorist - however, we saved up and hired one and I am still in shock. She never even observed them together and her report states "My primary recommendation would be to place Fozzie or to consider euthanizing Bear. This is the only way you will have a fully integrated peaceful household." So we spent a lot of money to be told to either get rid of one dog or kill the other. This was just last week. I think I am still in shock that a "professional" said such a horrible, nasty thing - and without even observing them! (She is certified, etc.) She then proceeded to show me how to teach the down command and the leave it command and suggested a follow up visit. (NEVER!) Yes, there are times that I cannot force issues with Bear because I get a little scared of him but nothing that would EVER make a death warrant suitable! He even got ahold of one of our cats one time (VERY scary) and had her in his mouth and was shaking her - I ran up to him, grabbed him by the extra skin on his back and shook him until he let her go - and just like with Fozzie - no blood, just fur. There has NEVER been any wounds but I just worry that all it takes is once. (We now keep our cats in a large room to be sure they are all safe.)
Yes, we have had to re-arrange our lives a lot - however, Bear has actually come a long way since we first got him. He was absolutely terrified of a collar and leash when we first got him - he now walks as if he were trained for years. We used to have 2 gates up so they were high enough that Bear and Fozzie couldn't touch one another - we now have just one. Bear is a very loving dog 99% of the time and he is probably the most intelligent dog I have ever had in my life. He can have impulse control when he wants to (if I have a short lead on him, I have already seen him run towards the gate to growl, then have seen him think to himself "No, this lead is on me and she can get me away very fast so I am not going to do it." And he walks away.) He taught himself that when he comes in from going outside and it is time to bring Fozzie out, he didn't like being held - so totally on his own, he started going in the bathroom, looking at me as if to say "Yes, I know you have to bring Fozzie out - go ahead and close the door and I'll be fine in here."
I’m sorry this ended up being such a long message but it has been almost 10 months now and we are just getting nowhere and I am looking anywhere and everywhere for any possible help for this situation. We have tried the nothing in life is free system as well as we could. I do make sure he sits at the door and allows me to go first at all times, I have him sit before he is fed, etc., etc.
P.S. Giving any of them up will never be an option.
I have 2 short videos of one of their fights but I don't know if it is allowed to upload files like that?
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Rory's Dad
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Re: Sibling rivalry
Set up a link to the videos. It would help to see what is going on. Since both dogs are under two years old, it still could be rough housing as compared to attacks, but without seeing it, tough to say for sure.
At any point, it does sound like they are trying to establish a leadership role. As hard as that can be, you need to set yourself as the leader. If they aren't just playing, then you need to set yourself as the pack leader to stop the aggressive behavior.
I agree that the behaviorist you mentioned likely knows nothing about chows. The recommendation is horrendous. Particularly after just a brief meeting.
i have a 2 year old male and a 9 month old female. Male is a the calmest most gentle Chow ever. Our female will chase and grab. No true fighting, but just trying to assert herself. I use similar methods with a lead on her to control her behavior. She is getting better, but slowly. Some of it is puppy play, but he just really isnt interested. She is also trying to be assert herself, but by controlling her behavior, she is learning that i am in charge and will not allow her to dominate my male.
At any point, it does sound like they are trying to establish a leadership role. As hard as that can be, you need to set yourself as the leader. If they aren't just playing, then you need to set yourself as the pack leader to stop the aggressive behavior.
I agree that the behaviorist you mentioned likely knows nothing about chows. The recommendation is horrendous. Particularly after just a brief meeting.
i have a 2 year old male and a 9 month old female. Male is a the calmest most gentle Chow ever. Our female will chase and grab. No true fighting, but just trying to assert herself. I use similar methods with a lead on her to control her behavior. She is getting better, but slowly. Some of it is puppy play, but he just really isnt interested. She is also trying to be assert herself, but by controlling her behavior, she is learning that i am in charge and will not allow her to dominate my male.
Re: Sibling rivalry
Thank you for replying. Unfortunately, it is definitely fighting, not rough housing. Stuffy and Bear and Stuffy and Fozzie do rough house at times but this is wayyyy beyond rough housing. I have both videos up on youtube. The addresses are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orfcAHxNI68 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH1S67lyeMk (You will hear my husband screaming at them in the second one - we now know that screaming is not the way to go.)
Yes, the behaviorist was probably the biggest waste of money I ever experienced in my entire life. And I will not try that again. Somehow, some way, we are going to make this work.
Do either of your dogs ever give you problems when you need to do something with them? (Change collars, take them from one room to another, etc.) I do know I have to be in charge but Bear has good teeth. He has never bitten us but when he doesn't want to do something, he acts like he might so I back off. I know that makes him sound bad but he's truly not - it's probably more me than him.
I have been communicating with Doggy Dan ("The Online Dog Trainer" in New Zealand) since April and he has been trying to help me with this. I love his methods because they are so non-confrontational to the dog and absolutely nothing even remotely mean.
If you view the videos, I'm sure you will see that these are truly attacks. I accidentally brought Fozzie in the wrong door the other day, forgetting that Bear was in that part of the house - it took him about 15 seconds to notice Fozzie and immediately attacked him. I pulled Bear off by his collar and my husband brought Fozzie in the living room and that went pretty smoothly actually. A tiny, tiny baby step of improvement in that is that usually it takes until I get Bear about 6-10 feet away before he stops growling but that time he stopped growling immediately. I swear that attack was at least partially my fault - when I first saw Bear, I got nervous, said "Oh, shoot!" and it's almost as if Bear knew I "expected" him to attack Fozzie so he did what he thought was expected of him. Make sense to you?
As I said, Bear is extremely intelligent - and I don't care what the "behaviorist" said - I will never give up on my boys!
Yes, the behaviorist was probably the biggest waste of money I ever experienced in my entire life. And I will not try that again. Somehow, some way, we are going to make this work.
Do either of your dogs ever give you problems when you need to do something with them? (Change collars, take them from one room to another, etc.) I do know I have to be in charge but Bear has good teeth. He has never bitten us but when he doesn't want to do something, he acts like he might so I back off. I know that makes him sound bad but he's truly not - it's probably more me than him.
I have been communicating with Doggy Dan ("The Online Dog Trainer" in New Zealand) since April and he has been trying to help me with this. I love his methods because they are so non-confrontational to the dog and absolutely nothing even remotely mean.
If you view the videos, I'm sure you will see that these are truly attacks. I accidentally brought Fozzie in the wrong door the other day, forgetting that Bear was in that part of the house - it took him about 15 seconds to notice Fozzie and immediately attacked him. I pulled Bear off by his collar and my husband brought Fozzie in the living room and that went pretty smoothly actually. A tiny, tiny baby step of improvement in that is that usually it takes until I get Bear about 6-10 feet away before he stops growling but that time he stopped growling immediately. I swear that attack was at least partially my fault - when I first saw Bear, I got nervous, said "Oh, shoot!" and it's almost as if Bear knew I "expected" him to attack Fozzie so he did what he thought was expected of him. Make sense to you?
As I said, Bear is extremely intelligent - and I don't care what the "behaviorist" said - I will never give up on my boys!