SEEKING ADVICE ON AGGRESSION WITH OTHER DOGS!

Mishella · Post by **Mishella** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:45 pm

I am seeking advice with my 2 year old male chow. I love him and have had him since he was 10 weeks old. I originally purchased 2 him, along with his sister. At about 6 months, my female began attacking him and starting fights. It was heartbreaking, but after several attempts, I gave my female back to the breeder. I love my chow chow "Gino" he is fantastic with my 4 children and cat as well. However, he HATES anyone other than our immediate family, will growl, and back up, this also includes my childrens friends which are also children. He HATES any and all other dogs and even attacked my neighbors boxer and my sisters great dane and won both of the fights. I cannot take him to the vet without calling them from the parking lot to have a room ready, as i am not able to even wait with him in the waiting room due to other dogs. I love him and would NEVER part with him but I am wondering if there is any possible soulution to this problem! He sleeps with my kids, the cat and even plays and cleans the cat, so he is sweet as an angel to us, but is like night and day with ANYONE other than our immediate family. I am even scared to go on a vacation due to his behavior with other people, so I just dont leave him. Can anyone offer me advice or help??? It would be greatly appriciated!!! THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!!!

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:56 pm

He has severe aggession issues. I would be scared as well since he even acts aggressive towards children. I would get him immediate training from a trainer that is used to dealing with dogs with these kinds of issues. In the mean time either keep him seperate from anyone or animals other than your family at all times and/or if he needs to be around other dogs and ppl (like the vet waiting room) put a muzzel on him. You have to protect everyone around him. Also, no dog "wins" in a dog fight. This is a loosing behavior when done out of aggression and not protection (meaning you were being attacked and he was to protect you). It is strange that a chow that was raised from a puppy and was socilized would be so aggressive...

Mishella · Post by **Mishella** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:22 pm

Thank you for your reply. It is just so strange how he is. I fully trust him with my family but it is hard to think that maybe from my female that I had that would attack and pick fights with him that maybe he is like this. He has no food agression or with rawhides, he is happy, playful and loves my kids and our cat. He just seems to be so protective over us that he dosnt like anyone else in the house. The boxer came into our yard by pushing himself under the fense and the boxer was huge. My sisters great dane jumped our fence due to his size, it was simple to do, and came into the our yard to try and attempt to play with him, although he didnt take it that way. What i mean by him winning was, I was amazed that due to the difference in sizes between my chow, the boxer and a great dane, he was able to take control so quickly and over come them on those 2 occasions. He listens, and is my heart, I thought that maybe some other chow chow owners maybe have had the same issue? He has been extremely well socialized. I didnt even work for the first 6 months we had him and worked very hard to make sure he was well rounded. I simply dont know what was the cause, his sister, that kept fighting and dominating him, or somthing else. The vet just tells me he is a chow and that is typical. I am not buying that though. Maybe he is traumatized over the early times of his sister fighting with him?

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:37 pm

I wouldn't call it severe aggression your Chow isn't much different then my 10 year old Chow but she has never gone out of her way to attack another dog or a person its usually if they come to her, she will attack another dog if it is in her yard or house. She is only interested in the immediate family and just doesn't want to be bothered by anyone else. Your Chow is still young so maybe training will help but be extremely careful with who you pick to do the training, make sure they have worked with Chows before and even if they say they have worked with Chows have them prove it. I doubt you will ever be able to get your Chow to accept every dog or person that approches.

You might try getting your Chow out in public more, go to parks where there are other dogs and people just keep your distance so he can see there is life outside the house, try to get him out more so he can get use to a verity of situations and different people just don't allow anyone one to pet him or other dogs to approach him until he is more comfortable.

This topic usually Leeds to some heated discussions so hang in there, Your Chow isn't some wild killer beast, he just needs to be worked with a bit.

Mishella · Post by **Mishella** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:46 pm

Thank you for your advice! Not a lot of trainers or vets seems to take well to chow chows. I have tried and called some already. I hate that. He has always been out and around people even as a puppy and thinking back to his baby days, he even growled at strangers at 12 weeks old and people just laughed it off, they thought it was cute. He simply just has never liked anyone other than us. I guess we are just all he ever needs in his eyes.LOL I am glad and relieved to know I am not alone in this. I see all of these pics on here, I am new to this and it breaks my heart to think I could never be one to have a pic with more than one dog or just let him run at the park etc, etc. I have always wanted 2 dogs and specifically another chow, but there is no way possible, not now, maybe not ever. Thank you for your advice so very much.

Post by **Auddymay** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:58 pm

I feel your pain. Lily is well socialized, yet she is aggressive toward other dogs on lead- but not always. I have a 10 year old mix as well and they are good together. She is good with people, but not ALL people. I would look around as Jeff suggested to see if you can find someone to help you modify his behavior. Never quit trying to improve his acceptance of others, and I wish you the best of luck!

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:24 am

Re: "He just seems to be so protective over us that he dosnt like anyone else in the house....and thinking back to his baby days, he even growled at strangers at 12 weeks old and people just laughed it off, they thought it was cute. He simply just has never liked anyone other than us. I guess we are just all he ever needs in his eyes.LOL"
---

Socialization experiences at the 'fear imprinting' stage of puppy brain development (8-16 weeks approx) maps out a 'blueprint' of who is *friend* or *foe*. If he was allowed to growl at strangers, instead of encouraged to have positive experiences with all types of people, and allowed to bond too closely with only the immediate family, then that's the socialization blueprint created.

Chows are naturally 'family guard' oriented, suspicious of strangers, and *that's* why it's so important
to socialize them - so that their brain sees the world as filled with more *friends* than real *foes*. It seems he was basically left in charge to make those important decisions.

Rogansmommy · Post by **Rogansmommy** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:50 am

Hi and welcome. You said this behavior is fairly new? While I agree with Jeff and Kiwani about him simply guarding his family and getting him out in public more, if this behavior is new have you looked in to the possiblity of a medical issue? (Holy run-on sentence Batman!)

Seriously though - thyroid problems have been known to trigger behavior issues in dogs. Have you had him tested?

chowfrnd88 · Post by **chowfrnd88** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:41 am

Welcome to the site! I agree with the advice given by Kiwani, Jeff and Rogansmommy. From what I've learned on the site, there could very well be a medical issue going on here. It's also really important to keep socializing forever. Like Jeff mentioned, stay at a safe distance where both you and he feel comfortable and just take it slow. I'm sure others will have more really good suggestions. Good luck and keep us posted, I'm sorry for the stress you're going through.

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:54 am

I was under the impression that your pup attacked the others without provocation. For him to do it in your yard is a totally different story. He is still agressive but more protective. I stand by my opinion that he needs to be trained and jeff is right make sure they have chow experience. They can be hard to find, but they are out there and it will just take a little work. Check to see if you have any chow clubs in your area they can be very helpful. Also, by socilizing I don't mean just with you. I mean with dogs (not from your household), cats, children and strangers. I would not expect him to be friendly with everyone (most chows but not all are not friendly with strangers). Also, try putting a muzzel on him and inviting new people over and thier pets. When he is being nice towards them praise him and after a couple of short visits (they should not be muzzeled for long periods of time I would suggest no more than 30 minutes, but some people say a little longer) take it off as soon as he is behaving. Make sure not to pet or reassure him when he is acting aggressive since he will see it as you are okay with his behavior. Also, if he is 2 years and has been doing this since he was 12 weeks I would doubt it was medically linked. I would follow the others advice about taking him to parks and around ppl at a distance so he gets used to ppl that could really help.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:35 am

I am sorry you have this problem and the only thing I can suggest is that at two, he is not too old to socialise - I think!

I agree with most of what the others have said and if I were you, the action I would take is as follows.

I would take him on a course of social walks - if necessary with a muzzle on (though I don't like that idea). I would take him on a crash course for as long as it takes with positive re-enforcements - treats, praise - up and down the high street, to the park, up and down the supermarket car park, down to the pet-shop, anywhere there are people.

Also, and I never thought I would hear myself say this, I would get the advice/help of a trainer but be careful, very careful that you don't get one of these cranky, arty farty types - get a good one like Melanie of Melanie and the Gang on this site. (In fact she will probably pick up this thread soon and give you some advice). You don't need cranky stuff by silly little women who think they know how to train after doing a weekend course - you want a proper trainer.

Good luck.

3blackchows · Post by **3blackchows** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:38 am

Welcome. Don't get despaired & feel you have a Kujo on your hands. I feel your pain. I have had chows for 18 years & if I have learned nothing I have learned that they are very territorial of their area. One of their many rolls back hundreds of years ago was to protect the emporer. The 2 dogs that came in his yard were coming over to play or get a closer look, however he looked at it as though they were invading his territory. My 1st chow was a male, Hardy. I socilaized him with evenone. We'd go on walks & people wud stop me to pet him. He was about 2 when he stopped tollerating people other than the immediate family & hated men. On walks he wud start growling if he saw a man within a block of us. I was single at the time & just assumed he was taking on the "man of the house role".
He was neutered at 3 1/2 as I got my 2nd chow, Laurel.
She went into heat & needless to say I don't think I slept for 10 days. Vet said he doubted the neuter would help with his temperment, but we slowly started see a difference in him. He took to my x-husband when we started dating. Hardy had never been around children until my niece & newphew were born. We started acclimating him at the ripe old age of 9. He loved those kids & NEVER once snapped at them. So they can change. Is your boy neutered? Not saying thats a cure for all, just wondering.

After chatting w/ several breeders, they have advised that
our pets are very in tune to us, they know when we are upset, they know when we are nervous. Possibly when you take him to the vet he is feeling your vibes about what's getting ready to happen & it makes him more protective of you against the surroundings at the vet. Also they don't think like we do either. Chows are independant to a degree
& I'm sure some are happy to be by themselves as opposed to having a mate.

I currently have 3 chows, 2 males & 1 female. I have had fiting issues for a few months between my female & 1 of the males. It has only occured in the yard. The last fite was this past Sunday. Since Sunday, we have not them go outside together & knock on wood... it's working.

Sorry for rambling...

I'm new to the site also & have found a wonderful extended chow family.

Mishella · Post by **Mishella** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:02 am

Thank you to everyone! I stumbled on this site and thought it would be a good idea to try and talk with some other chow owners and i am glad that I did. I want to say that when he would growl as a puppy at strangers, I would always tell him no, and that it was okay and my brother for instance, the first time my family came to see him, he growled and i had him come over to my brother and let him smell him and let my brother sit next to him, and when I noticed him being calm after a few moments, I would have my brother pet him and give a biscuit to let him know it was okay and he would not hurt him. That seemed to help but as one of the other people had responded to me, I was single when I first got him and it was just me and the kids and i quickly noticed that he hated men especially. When My nephews (who are in early 20's) would come to visit, if I would be on one couch and him on the other one, Gino would come and sit right on top of my feet and if my nephew would move he would growl. I then would get up, go and sit directly next to my nephew and tell Gino to "come" and he would sit between my legs and then my nephew would be able to pet him with no problem. At the vet, he is an angel and has never growled wether it was the male or female vet examining him. He gets professionaly groomed every month, and my groomer loves him and he has never growled or anything at her, in fact she says he is her favorite and her King Gino. She is also a female. With my new husband, ironically he has never growled from the first day he met him! I was worried. He has no problem with him. I also notice that when my kids are playing with other kids, and like kids will do, yell or let out little screams of playing tag, he gets really nervous and will growl. It's almost like he thinks the other kids are hurting my kids. I have had him at parks, on walks since I first got him, I take him thru the drivethrus and people love him, but they just cant dare stick an arm in the window. (HE growls) One thing too, that I was thinking about was the fact that he is not neutered. I was told by different vets that that would not change his behavior all together. I may have to get him neutered. Also with other dogs, he never would growl, whine, or pull to get to another dog in public. He acts as if they are non exsistant! But if they were to approach him, that is a different story. He dosnt bark...ever, he is calm most of the time but loves to play and will follow me a lot. He loves to go for rides and walks, but I have to be careful that other dogs are not around that arent on a leash that would be able to approach him. He is very threatened is another dog approaches him or me when he is with me. I know he gets lonley without a playmate, and his playmate happens to be my 5 year old persian cat who now thinks he is a dog! They eat, drink, lick eachother, and play hide and seek literally around the house it is adorable. I am going to keep trying to find a trainer that is not anti-chow. I aucually had a dog trainer tell me "well that is how chows are and I dont think you are going to change him, and even asked me what made me want a chow-chow in the first place! I was angry and asked him, what made you want your dog, and it is a shame your ad says "we train all dogs" or all breeds. The subject can be very heated with some people and I guess I was seeking support and suggestions from you guys and ladies here who would understand and could help, thanks again !

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:50 am

From what you're describing here this is protective aggression and yes he's going to be protective. And it's not just a chow thing. For instance the growling and whining when the kids get loud while playing; my collie used to do that when my brother and I would play and get rough with each other. He wanted to protect both of us, but was confused as to which and so he'd get very upset, if he was out with us, we'd both end up scratched from him jumping up trying to seperate us. One solution you might try with your Gino is to distract him from the kids and maybe have a calm session with him.

On walks if he's ignoring other dogs who don't approach him, this is very much chowchow behavior, especially with the males, and is just fine. Dogs who are allowed to run loose are a problem, I always look for the owner, if no owner is around, I tighten my hold on the lead and move my dogs away quickly. (if the owner is there I tell them to move their dog away, now!)

For the other issues, I'd get a trainer for better socialization and tolerance to having his territory invaded by welcome strangers, (people you bring into your house) also never, ever allow him to sit in front of you and face down another person, especially a man. This is very dominant male behavior, he's thinking, "I'm the alpha male to my mom, (who is the alpha female) and I will protect her from this strange male." Moving to sit next to the man is a good remedy, so is making Gino lay down, that takes him out of the dominant posture.

Neuturing may help some of the behaviors, but at two his brain has already been altered by a full dose of male hormones. I recommend neuturing and spaying to cut down on unwanted puppies but never for behavioral issues, I've seen spayed females that were aggressive and nasty, (an American Eskie and a Lab) and intact males that were sweet hearts, (the two rotties across the hall)

You might want to see if there are chowchow breeders in your area that can recommend trainers.

Colorado · Post by **Colorado** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:39 pm

Hello, I am new to this forum but I thought I'd warn you all about a website I found with a man who was warning everyone against owning chow chows. Apparently, he sells his own "training videos" to people and I feel he is giving people terrible advice - especially chow owners. He feels that all dogs should be trained the same regardless of breed - no exceptions. Basically, he feels they should be physically and mentally dominated even if that includes physical punishment. This man states that it should be unneccessary to socialize any dog when it is young or old and feels there is no need to take your dog to parks or even out of your house. It is quite obvious to me why this man hates this wonderful breed - because his "training methods" simply won't work on them! I feel chows need a consistent and firm hand but also alot of love, hugs and socialization especially for those first couple of years. I read this man's website and I was simply disgusted. Anyone who needs to instill fear and intimidation to train a dog should not be calling himself a professional dog trainer. I've seen real trainers do amazing things by just reading a dogs' body language without even laying a hand on a dog. This guy won't post ANYTHING remotely challenging his views on his website - of course. I'd give the name of the site but I'm afraid of some sort of retaliation.

Beware of guys like this!

Chow lover for life.

SWANCIN · Post by **SWANCIN** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:15 pm

Colorado wrote:Hello, I am new to this forum but I thought I'd warn you all about a website I found with a man who was warning everyone against owning chow chows. Apparently, he sells his own "training videos" to people and I feel he is giving people terrible advice - especially chow owners. He feels that all dogs should be trained the same regardless of breed - no exceptions. Basically, he feels they should be physically and mentally dominated even if that includes physical punishment. This man states that it should be unneccessary to socialize any dog when it is young or old and feels there is no need to take your dog to parks or even out of your house. It is quite obvious to me why this man hates this wonderful breed - because his "training methods" simply won't work on them! I feel chows need a consistent and firm hand but also alot of love, hugs and socialization especially for those first couple of years. I read this man's website and I was simply disgusted. Anyone who needs to instill fear and intimidation to train a dog should not be calling himself a professional dog trainer. I've seen real trainers do amazing things by just reading a dogs' body language without even laying a hand on a dog. This guy won't post ANYTHING remotely challenging his views on his website - of course. I'd give the name of the site but I'm afraid of some sort of retaliation.

Beware of guys like this!

Chow lover for life.

Hi there, I am quite sure I know of the video "trainer" you are speaking of (also won't mention here). He's got a number of followers, but I AM NOT one of them....

Thanks for your post.

PS: Coco and Mom, I don't have any sound advice other than what's already given.

3blackchows · Post by **3blackchows** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:35 pm

I'm so tired of anti chowchow-ites. If I had a 200 acre farm, I'd be a breeder to make sure this... the oldest & wisest breed is always around. I'm not sure of the trainer Colorado is talking about; however his issue with the breed
leads me to believe he's failed at training a chow. Hey if we, who are not trainers can teach the dog to sit, stay, come & walk on a leash then what do we need him for? Pat yourself on the back, you've just trained a chow. Sorry if this comes across in a negative way

.
I just get so angry when I come across people who say they are professionals & then they badmouth a breed, it's kinda
like a priest badmouthing another religion. Maybe that was not a good analogy, I hope I didn't offend anyone I'm sorry. My priest will have me saying 10 Hail Mary's tonite.

I agree w/ Victory, a breeder may be able to reccomend a trainer or possibly your vet. I am running into that problem myself.

ciaobella · Post by **ciaobella** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:46 pm

All the good advice has been given already... just want to say, don't be discouraged. Don't listen to people who say nothing can be done, that's BS. My girl was an antisocial wild thing rescue. If she had been captured by animal control, they would have euthanised her without a second thought. Time, patience, and firm but gentle training made all the difference for her, and I have no doubt that Gino will respond as well.
Sandy

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:23 am

Colorado wrote:Hello, I am new to this forum but I thought I'd warn you all about a website I found with a man who was warning everyone against owning chow chows. Apparently, he sells his own "training videos" to people and I feel he is giving people terrible advice - especially chow owners. He feels that all dogs should be trained the same regardless of breed - no exceptions. Basically, he feels they should be physically and mentally dominated even if that includes physical punishment. This man states that it should be unneccessary to socialize any dog when it is young or old and feels there is no need to take your dog to parks or even out of your house. It is quite obvious to me why this man hates this wonderful breed - because his "training methods" simply won't work on them! I feel chows need a consistent and firm hand but also alot of love, hugs and socialization especially for those first couple of years. I read this man's website and I was simply disgusted. Anyone who needs to instill fear and intimidation to train a dog should not be calling himself a professional dog trainer. I've seen real trainers do amazing things by just reading a dogs' body language without even laying a hand on a dog. This guy won't post ANYTHING remotely challenging his views on his website - of course. I'd give the name of the site but I'm afraid of some sort of retaliation.

Beware of guys like this!

Chow lover for life.

I also know this guy's website and it's obvious he knows nothing about the breed, his methods, (I won't justify them with the word "training") would result in a chow that was either vicious or cowed, neither of which is an acceptable quality for chows or any other breed standard. I've read quite a few breed standards and not one of them says any breed should be cowed or dominanted or act like it.

Watch or go to dog shows, and talk or listen to the judges talk and do they ever say anything about a submissive dog being what they are looking for? No. They look for attention, calmness, alertness, willingness to do what's asked and that something that says the dog is enjoying what he/she are doing.

The closest thing I can come up with the quality I'm talking about in a human is with an actor, singer or athelete, a quality called "being on" For non-performers it's the dinner party that goes off without a single hitch, the holiday that is absolutely perfect, the project that goes just as planned.

That's what I like to see in my chows everyday. An animal that has been cowed doesn't have it. People like this guy aren't trainers they are big bullies who should be outlawed.

Juniper · Post by **Juniper** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:51 pm

Mishella:
My female Chow Sheena, a rescue from the street, at 3.5 years old was very aggressive, would get vicious and go to bite anyone with skin that wasn't very white and would just put up with white-skinned people for a short period of time, doesn't matter what age. I took her to basic and advanced training at Petsmart but beforehand I handpicked who the trainer would be, had to have white skin, and made sure it would be a very very small class of 3 to 4 other dogs maximum. The trainer could not get very close to Sheena. Note: there were people with brown skin with the other dogs but I seated Sheena on the other side always away from anyone else.

Sheena just learned from watching the other dogs be trained. She saw brown-skinned people loving their dogs and the dogs being very happy. And I would show love to Sheena at the same time. By the end of the 8 weeks Sheena was able to be held on a leash by the trainer as I walked away. I spent time at no leash parks and parks and had some very close calls with her attempting to bite people before she got to the advanced training. After 8 more weeks in advanced training Sheena had changed towards people and was able to allow others to pet her (even dark-skinned people).

Now Sheena, after camping, the Chowfest... and being around lots of people, can walk away with another person I've given her leash to and remain with that person for up to 1/2 hour and it isn't a problem, just as long as I've spoken with Sheena of that I will return before I turn over the leash.

Sheena is now five years old and becomes more relaxed every day. But- I still need to watch her. She gets grumpy at times and will growl even at those who she's just become friends with. (It happened at the Chowfest!) I've noticed that if I sit in a place for any length of time - about 20 to 30 minutes - she takes possession of the area and doesn't want anyone else to come into our or her space. So now I know I just need to keep moving.

This too will change in time.

So just hang in there- Sheena was a rescue that I could not touch for 10 days after capturing her in my yard. Then she tried to bite me even but now she's a sweetheart.

I still need to train Sheena for guests into my house but I am such a loner I never have any visitors except strangers knocking on my door. Sheena barks aggressively, ferociously, for awhile but after a few OK's she goes to lie down and doesn't bark and allows me to talk with the person. One thing I know for sure is that Chows are intelligent and learn well just by observing.

Sorry about the long post, hope this helps some.

ciaobella · Post by **ciaobella** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:09 pm

Jennifer, I am always touched by your eloquence... what you say says it all. Anything bad that is learned can be unlearned. Trust in the innate intelligence and sensitvity that is special to chows... they are willing and eager to learn from you.

xueshuxin · Post by **xueshuxin** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:29 pm

Cld this be a result of the female chow's attacks to him? I believe with these attacks your boy learnt not to trust not to compromise and not to be near to anyone except HIS immediate family.

I agree with the others, your boy shall have some training lessons. A chow is generaly not social and I don't think it shld either, but since he likes attacking others it's a big big problem. You are right you can't go on a vacation your children's friends can't come & visit; so give him some training courses.

Or is it possible when your children's friends are with your chow, you try to hug those friends and see his reaction? Songsong used to live with my sister before I brought him home; at the very first sight he barked at me loud, and then my sister hugged me, and then I treated him some snacks, and then he became such an angel...

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