How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

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Clouds
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How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Clouds »

Hello All, I'm new here. And I've got a bit of a problem.

On Thursday my father and I drove to pick up a chow puppy from this lady who was selling them. He told me that he saw the ad in the paper, at first I was very excited and when we arrived there she had about three puppies to choose from. We chose a black boy pup since my father did not want a female, at first everything was all fine once we got him in the car and started going he whined a little bit and I petted him and talked to him quietly to calm him down. On the way back to town we stopped at a Pets Smart to get some supplies and I placed him in the cart, once again even though he sat there quietly he whined until I soothed him and he believed it, then he calmed down.

His name is Tobi and he is around 2 months old. At first we thought he was a pretty good temperament dog as he presented himself to be very quiet and pretty laid back about everything. I gave him a bath as soon as we got home in the backyard and Tobi was surprisingly tolerant of it, with no crying or wildly jumping about he just stood here, but he did try to walk away a couple of times. To help him dry off I took him on a walk. The first night I tried to walk him he was very hesitant and didn't want to walk at all, he kept sitting down and refusing to move. With some tugging and persistence he finally started to walk along with me, but he would keep pausing and watching everything. I accepted this because I live in a suburb neighborhood and we got him from the country, where he had probably never encountered any of this before. But when we were half way up the block I guess he smelled something he didn't like because he refused to move forward, despite my pleading and gentle tugging of the leash. I try tugging and just leaving a loose leash and walking so he will follow. When I went back to get him, he growled at me.

I chose to correct this by grabbing his scruff which seemed to work because after that he followed. The rest of the day went fine.

On Friday I woke up early before I had to go to school to take him out and let him stretch his legs a bit before I put him back in the kennel. He was fine that morning, being very friendly and wagging his tail and even jumping up on me but when I put him back in the kennel he started to whine and bark, I chose to ignore him because I was leaving for school anyway. Later that day while I was at school, I called my father to see how things were going with him, He said that yes, he had taken Tobi out and walked him. But he said when he went to the kennel to let Tobi out, he growled at him. My father left him alone and came back about a hour later to let him out and this time Tobi came with no problem. But when it came to going outside my father said he had to drag him out.

I noticed that Tobi hesitates with coming out of the kennel and the doors but I assume that he will get over it. Yesterday afternoon I came home, let Tobi out of the kennel and took him into the back yard, feed, watered and played with him for a little bit. I bought him doggy toys, a squeaky cotton raccoon and two balls but he doesn't play with them, it's like he doesn't know what they are. So we played chase for a while, I ran and he chased me. Then I walked him again, he did pretty well this time. We met some neighborhood kids and I let them play with Tobi because I read that these dogs should be socialized as much as possible and again he wasn't very warm with them but he was tolerant and somewhat friendly, not overly enthusiastic but not aggressive.

My father and I went out to the park and took Tobi with us where I tried to work on his training and getting him to learn his name. I started with Come, by saying Tobi, come! but I don't know how effective it was as he follows at my heels everywhere now anyway. I gave him small bits of treats every time he looked at me when I called his name and told him to come. Then I had my father try. It was a lost cause because Tobi would not listen when my father called him even though he was holding a treat, Tobi would look but he would just stand there or move to walk away. I figured maybe he would do better if I wasn't there so I left, and of course Tobi tried to follow after me but my father tugged at the leash and said No each time. Even with me gone, they fared no better because Tobi just would not come, he would just stare.

When I came back at some point I was walking up to Tobi and he turned and barked at me, once. I repeated the scruff grab from the day before and left him be. Tobi came up to me after I turned away and lay down close and I petted him to hopefully insure there were no hard feelings.

But that afternoon when I brought him home and put him in the kennel, he was quiet this time because he was tired out at some point I walked into the room and came up behind the kennel. Maybe I surprised him because I didn't approach directly in front of him but Tobi went off, barking and growling inside of the kennel even when I went to the front and kneeled down so he could see me. I left him be for the entire night.

This morning as I came down the stairs Tobi barked but I squatted down like a foot or two away from the kennel and talked to him gently and he he started wagging his tail and being his friendly self. I took him out to relieve himself and then put him right back in because it was drizzling and wet outside and I didn't want to walk him while it was wet.

Today marks the third day we've had him and already I am beginning to doubt this decision. I'm afraid I won't be able to train him and he'll turn out to be an aggressive, unruly dog. I read that chows are independent but I figured I could handle that, because I've trained my other dogs before in the past. I am also concerned that Tobi will only bond with me and not my father and will not listen to him. My father pointed out that maybe the lady we bought him from spoke to the dogs in her first language, as she was ethnic.

So could it be that Tobi doesn't understand commands in english? And how should I go about training him? I really need some advice here because if I can't train him and get him to listen, not only to me but to my father and anyone else who might give him orders that I am friends/family I will have to find someone who is experienced in raising chows and can insure he will turn out to be a good dog with a good future. I'm worried I'll screw up with him somewhere and he'll end up meeting the negative stereotype of a chow. My dad is also like, If he won't listen to me he can't stay here and says he's going to do some tough training with him.

I'm afraid to discipline him physically because I don't want him to end up aggressive. So again, how did you guys train your chows? Also how do I get him to stop whining and yelping when I put him in the kennel and he doesn't want to go? He's pretty good with it at night time or when he is tired but any other time he cries and in the morning when I leave for school I don't need him waking my father up.
Clouds
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Clouds »

My earlier post seemed a bit frantic when I looked over it and I've got to say that Tobi is a pretty well behaved puppy. Later yesturday evening I took him out to this huge field where there were no distractions for him and worked on 'Come.' He's doing pretty well now, looking when his name is called and coming too but we still have a long way to go. I'd still very much appreciate any advice you guys have with me, in particular with kennel training.
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

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Puppies are like babies, they don't know anything. Someone has to teach them everything. Unless Toby was his name given to him by the breeder, he does not that is his name. No puppy knows how to walk on a leash. You have to train him. Walking on a leash is not natural, it is a learned behavior. Typically, what I do is put a harness and leash on my puppy, then allow him just to drag the loose leash around the house or fenced yard. I prefer the harness over a collar, especially for Chows because they cannot back out of the harness. I also think it puts less strain on the puppy and is therefore easier to learn. A harness also gives me better control of the dog, since I can actually pick up on the harness without causing any distress. Once the puppy is used to dragging the leash around, we can try walking. As you have noted, the puppy wants to smell just about everything. To a puppy, everything in the world is new. Smell in a very important sense for a dog, and stopping to smell is an important part of learning. You will have to get used to it. Chow puppies will frequently stop and refuse to walk. Please read through the forum forum for discussions about this behavior. It is common. I let my girl, Ursa, stop if she wanted to stop, and pretty well walk anywhere she wanted to walk initially. My idea was just to get her accustomed to walking with me. I could add giving a structured direction later. A chow puppy is not a lab puppy. Chows are much more reserved and cautious. Just blundering about is not their style.
I walked into the room and came up behind the kennel. Maybe I surprised him because I didn't approach directly in front of him but Tobi went off, barking and growling inside of the kennel even when I went to the front and kneeled down so he could see me.
Chows do not have the peripheral vision that many other dogs have, and are therefore startled when approached from behind. If I approach my dogs, I try to announce myself so that they know I am approaching. It is a courteous thing to do.
Petsmart has puppy training classes. You and your puppy need to attend the classes. Chows do need more socialization than other breeds if you want a well adjusted dog. You will have to have a lot of patience and work a lot with your chow puppy, but if you do so, you will have a wonderful pet.
I encourage everyone to read through the forum for additional information about training chows.
Clouds
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Clouds »

Thank you for the advice. :D

I'm pretty happy with Tobi so far and I'm learning just as much as he is. He walks good on the leash now the only problem is he constantly criss crosses and I have to be careful not to bump him. It's not a big problem just kind of a bother but I guess he'll grow out of it. :lol:
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Rory's Dad »

Nice advice by Ursa. He covered a lot. And congrats to you on your puppy and asking the questions. As Ursa said, Tobi knows nothing. Try not to worry about the language the breeder used. Check on the standard hand signals for the basic commands. Your pup will learn these quicker than vocal direction anyway. While Tobi should develop a primary bond with you, he will need to respond to instruction from all of his family. I agree with Ursa that he may not know his name yet. Start with this. Use treat/reward training. Say his name and look for eye contact. When you get it, reward him. If he doesnt look up to the eyes, put the treat at his nose and have him follow it up to your nose. Repeating this will show him the desired response to his name being called.

You also must remember to approach your chow from the front, and not too far on top. They do have limited peripheral vision, and at least announce your presence (back to the name recognition, and getting him to turn to look at you).

I agree with crate training, but you should be careful with this. You dont want Tobi to view the crate as a punishment or a time out. If he was properly adapted to the crate with the breeder, he will actually 'wait' when you open the gate and not try to rush out. Also, since you have established this as his space, dont reach in there when he is 'home'. You are invading his space. Be careful not to overuse this. The kennel should be a safe zone, there to ensure he doesnt 'make a mess' anywhere else or to see that he is protected when you have company. I think if you are gone, use the crate, but he should go out once he is released and left to explore the rest of the house once he has done his business. The freedom of the rest of the house should be his reward for doing 'stuff' outside. After he's done, leave the gates open and let him rest in there if he wants, but again, dont reach in there for him.

If this all sounds like a psychology lesson, it really is. Your chow requires consistent behavior from you, and there are some rules that he will want followed before he behaves well. First rule is always going to be to reward his good behavior. 2nd rule, is he is going to misbehave, and for now, you can correct it by having him do something positive or ignore it. Pulling at his ruff, or screaming no wont do a whole lot of good. You'll end up with a shy dog or one that will tune you out.

For now, i would also consider restricting his walking space. He will actually get used to it and will pull less, be less shy about moving forward and will generally just go with the flow. Once he gets comfortable with the usual places, you can expand it. To eliminate the criss-cross, you need to teach him loose leash walking. Tough skill, but worthwhile. Although not everyone feels its completely necessary, you should start by having him walk at the back of your heal. Again, use the treat method to lure him into the spot and to keep him there as you move forward. For a young pup, try about 5 steps and then let him have the treat. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Again, if you dont care about his actual position, thats ok, but this will still get him used to respecting where he is in relation to you. Its ok for him to be even or ahead of you, but he should maintain a straight line to where you are going.

Any other commands that you want out of Tobi follow the same logic. Use a vocal command, with a hand signal. Always say his name, and see that you have his attention, then tell him what you want. When he does it, reward him. No credit for a good effort if it isnt right. Its a process, but you will see results.
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Cam Atis »

You are being unfair to Toby on grabbing him by the scruff everytime. Did he bite you to warrant such a violent reaction from you? You'll make him shy away from you. Like what happpened when he is inside the crate. Standard dog training does not always work on a chow. Please reserve the scruff grab for later. Like if he is 4 months old. He's so young. You must at least be tolerant. He ain't a dog. He is a chow. Part cat part lion Part dog (just kidding)
His refusal to walk and reservation wih the children tells you something about who he is. He is a chow. Other dog breeds will drag you across the street causing embarassment. But a chow will prefer to take a step back and observe. what else? Ah, barking has many tones. He can bark as greeting you. He growls just to warn you. if he bares his teeth, that's another story. Dont judge the puppy as unsocialized as it cant be with his tender age. I hope you know when you say "independent breed" They are independent and cranky so don't push it. Chows need respect and space
Clouds
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Clouds »

The puppy is responding to his name more now and I believe he knows it, and he knows Come fairly well. But he only chooses to listen when he WANTS to and that's really irritating to me. I don't like having to call him 5+ times to get him to listen. Mainly this is an issue when we are outside and there are distractions because when I call him he doesn't repond and I have to go get him. When I'm training him on the first command I always use his name and when he looks and comes over I reward him with a Good Boy, petting, and treat.

Will I have to work on this one command every day to get him to react quickly enough to it? I haven't started teaching him anything else because I want to make sure he's got this one down first. Like you said Cam, he is very young so could this be a reason he is so distracted?

Also I noticed that when I have Tobi outside and people walk by he is prone to go into his alert, wary stance and bark at them...not very loud but like a quiet wuff or sometimes a growl. This really isn't a problem for me sometimes I correct him and tell him No, like this morning and he stopped and simply watched them. But yesturday this girl wanted to pet him and I told her she could, Tobi and I were in the yard and as she walked over he started barking and growling at her and started backing away. I did not react appropiately here because instead of trying to calm him and telling her to back off, I let her continue her approach. That was a bad response as Tobi clearly did not want to interact with her, but I was just surprised because I've never seen him do that before.

I'm willing to work on better socializing him and training him NOW while he is still young instead of doing the wait and see thing, when he may be too big and hard headed to change. So I've been reading through the threads here to try and get as much information as I can.

Oh and I should tell you guys, I think the lady I got him from kept all her dogs outside and Tobi is used to being out which is why he is so reluctant about the kennel. But we're working on that. I wish I could show you guys a picture, he's a black chow but he has the bleaching? I think it's called on his back so he looks kind of like a chocolate bear lol. Just curious, is the rusty fur permanent or will it start to revert?
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Ursa's daddy »

But he only chooses to listen when he WANTS to
Welcome to the world of chows. That is the reason I say "look at me", to get the dogs attention. Petsmart likes to use a clicker, but I have always been into voice commands.
Also I noticed that when I have Tobi outside and people walk by he is prone to go into his alert, wary stance and bark at them...not very loud but like a quiet wuff or sometimes a growl.
If my dogs go on alert, I usually stop walking and see what it is that has the dog's attention. Guarding is a primary characteristic of chows, and therefore attention is required to make sure that the dog makes appropriate responses. I would not let someone approach my dogs if the dogs reacted in a suspicious manner. I would have requested that the person maintain distance. Typically, in public, my dongs do not alert, however, when someone approaches, I have the dogs to sit or lay down, depending on the circumstances. I feel that having the dogs sit is a neutral position for them, and therefore they are more relaxed and less on guard.
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Cam Atis
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Cam Atis »

I find Cassie more responsive to my commands when she was 2 months of age. Now she is getting more independent as she is older. She is 4 months. My first chow and a case study to me. She knows her name and basic commands Come, Inside, Sit, Down, No.
You'll see Toby getting deaf or hard at hearing as he becomes more confident. He hears you alright but will opt to tune you out if he is busy with distractions.
All you need is: Forget about what you know in standard dog training. You cant make him move quicker anyway. Most owners of pure chows here acknowledge the fact that their chowdrens are stubborn. You just need to be patient in being patient. :-)
Chows are hard headed but what endeared me is the breed's independence. Toby will most probably encircle you for a few minutes then off he goes.
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Re: How should I train him? (Really needs advice)

Post by Rory's Dad »

The listening when he wants to can be one of two things...possibly he is just too distracted to hear you. More likely though, is you are experiencing a power struggle. My Rory is very much into being a male chow. He is seven months and displays behavior common to much older chows. I like to call it the passive-aggressive syndrome. He wants to do what a chow wants to do, and if he doesnt hear you telling him otherwise, he can do it. Pretty clever actually, so you need to be more clever. I have tried different treats as lures. I know Rory likes cheese better than he likes chasing a leaf, so that works. He also likes liver flavored treats better than barking at the dog across the street. Teach him that when he stops the behavior you dont like, and then performs a positive action (sit, lay, down), he gets rewarded. I dont like to reward for stopping bad behavior, so make sure to get a good action in there 1st.

As for meeting new people, he can also react to your emotions. Make sure you are positive and comfortable. NO is a tough command, i would think you should soothe more than correct. Good Boy, its OK works really well. You want the dog to read your signals. This is almost like another command. You need to tell him its OK...think if you were walking the dog and approached by a stranger with poor intentions...you dont want the dog to accept the person and start giving Chow kisses. Tobi needs to know that you are OK with the person 1st. If you want Tobi to be accepting of an individual, have them help you with his training...give them a bit of treat and have that person ask Tobi to sit, lay, whatever.
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