Concerned about Chow Behavior

Training and behavior topics, guidelines, and tips for Chow Chows.

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rgeralde
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Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by rgeralde »

Hi, I am new to this forum, but I can tell by looking around on the site, that there are a lot of Chow owners here that appear to be "in the know". So, I am going to go ahead and post some of my concerns that have cropped up just today relating to my Chow Chow, Ginger. Ginger is alost 5 months old. I was aware when we brought her home that Chows can be a challenge to own, and I have tried to be the alpha dog since she came to live with us. You see, we had a 14 year old Chow mix, Sugar, whom we had the pleasure of knowing since she was a puppy. She was primarily an out door dog. We have 35 acres, so she was sort of our "farm" dog living alongside 2 other mutt dogs that we received from my mother as puppies. Anyway, Sugar was the kindest, most lovable dog I have ever known, and it just about killed everyone in the family when she passed away mid December. Anyway, we loved her. Period. And, she was so kind, never aggressive, and we could do just about anything with her or to her and she would never have an issue with it. So, to the point . . . we brought Ginger into our world her on December 22, 2011, and she really breathed a breath of fresh air into all our lives. She has been very glorious. I have a son, Jake, 23, a daughter, Liz, 16 and a husband, Jeff, . . . we don't need to give his age! We all are very interactive with her. I bathe her, feed her, take her out . . . I do most of her "maintenance". She is completely an inside dog . . . except I take her out on a leash, of course. OK, here is what happened today, and I am quite upset about it: I took her out. When we came back in, I went to put a little taste of food into her dish like I do every time we go out and come back in. I took a small handful of food and started to put it in her dish, and she sort of attacked at me . . . meaning, she got very aggressive, barked, growled and snapped at me - just for giving her some food. Totally out of the blue! It really frightened me! Since that time, as we come back in, I am giving her a little treat instead, just from my hand to her. Obviously, I am doing something wrong . . . and, I don't want this sort of crap to start! Also, the only other issues she has is that she does not like strangers who are men. She loves all girls who come in, but we have a particular friend who is a guy, whom she does not like. She sits next to me and growls while he is here. We don't like that much either. She loves our family. At least she did love us all until she decided she did not like me earlier today! And, she just seems generally out of sorts today . . . like she is stewing over something. My son says she is spoiled and has had too much attention!
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Ursa's daddy
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Ursa's daddy »

Welcome to the forum. I am not sure about that food issue. That seems strange. Inside that fuzzy hard head there is a chow thought process that is going on. They understand the thinking, and we have to be keen observers to figure out what is going on in there. At this time, I don't have an answer. My suggestion is that you review the various posts in the forum and see if something clicks. You will need to review the event and see if there was a trigger. Sorry to be of so little help.
I won't say that it is necessarily typical for a chow to not like members of a specific *Censored Word*, but I have noted that this is rather common in many pets. There could be a number of reasons for this. Ursa, my female does not like strangers in her territory period. Malachi, my male, likes everyone, but first he HAS to smell you and check you out. Now, it you are not comfortable with a 75 pound black dog thoroughly checking you out, then you will have a problem. He will bark at people who are afraid, and he can put on a very impressive display. I have my two sit or lay down when introduced to strangers. I try to take my two on outings monthly so they stay socialized outside the house and yard, and will allow people to approach and pet them after having the dogs sit or lay down and explain to the people to approach from the front, let the dogs smell them, and then touch them on a lower part of their body.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by PCC »

rgeralde wrote:here is what happened today, and I am quite upset about it: I took her out. When we came back in, I went to put a little taste of food into her dish like I do every time we go out and come back in. I took a small handful of food and started to put it in her dish, and she sort of attacked at me . . . meaning, she got very aggressive, barked, growled and snapped at me - just for giving her some food. Totally out of the blue! It really frightened me! Since that time, as we come back in, I am giving her a little treat instead, just from my hand to her. Obviously, I am doing something wrong . . . and, I don't want this sort of crap to start! Also, the only other issues she has is that she does not like strangers who are men. She loves all girls who come in, but we have a particular friend who is a guy, whom she does not like. She sits next to me and growls while he is here. We don't like that much either. She loves our family. At least she did love us all until she decided she did not like me earlier today! And, she just seems generally out of sorts today . . . like she is stewing over something. My son says she is spoiled and has had too much attention!
Hi and welcome.

I do not really know about the food issue, but perhaps you should always make her work for her food and treats instead of just giving it to her. In other words, make her sit and or down and wait for it until you give her the OK to start. That may help curb any aggressiveness or possessiveness about food.

As for men, you might try positive reinforcement. Have your friend give her treats every time he comes for a visit.
rgeralde
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by rgeralde »

Well, I have some updates. I have been thinking about this a lot, because it was very upsetting. So, a couple of thoughts. #1 - it happened to my husband last night, too, when he put a handful of food in her dish while she was sitting there being hopeful that he might. It almost broke his heart. She growled, snapped and bared her teeth at him. So, I started thinking, "what are we doing wrong and why would she suddenly start acting this way", and I drew a line of her strange behavior back to Saturday. On Saturday afternoon, I put her Frontline on her. By Sunday a.m., she was acting moody and brooding, and that is when this behavior started . . . Sunday morning. And, this morning, before I got up, I could hear her vomiting (not something she has done over twice since we got her December 22). So, I did a bit of research on Frontline, and found that there can be side effects which include vomiting, anxiety, aggression and depression. She had that in spades all day today (mostly depression), until about 4 p.m. when she started to perk up again. Also, I called the vet, and they confirmed that the Frontline can make them act and feel badly for a couple of days. Now, I may just be avoiding the problem, but I have cut out the "you get a treat everytime we go out thing" today. Her potty habits are extremely good, so I guess we can start to cut that back somewhat anyway. And, I am feeding her when she is not in the room, so as not to have to deal with the potential of the aggressive behavior. And, another thing . . . I have been feeding her the Puppy Chow throughout the day . . . a small scoop now and then throughout the day versus one big bunch once or twice a day. Mostly I have done this because she eats like a pig, and in the beginning, if I put too much in the bowl, she would just eat till she literally threw up. But, I think that is bad. So, I am trying to change that to maybe more 2-3 times per day. And, something else, I have not been very diligent about measuring out her daily ration, but I actually read the Puppy Chow bag today (LOL), and now that I think about it, even though she has a nice fat belly, etc., it does not really sound like I have been feeding her enough daily - at least not according to the bag. So, maybe she is just flat out hungry, and sort of lost her mind in the frenzy of being fed. According to the Puppy Chow bag, she should be getting 2-1/2 to 4 -1/4 cups of food per day. I would guess that she has been getting about 2-1/2 through the day during my somewhat constant bits of feeding. So, I am going to measure out 3-1/2 cups every day into a container and divy that up into 3 feedings. Again, it is just going to magically appear in her bowl because the Puppy Chow fairy brought it. I have started giving her a dog biscuit sometimes after we come back in - after a poo - and she is taking that politely from my hand. No aggression over that. So, I am sort of treading lightly . . . trying to avoid the situaiton versus facing it and making it go away . . . again, that may not be the right thing to do but I don't want to have to face that biting thing again . . . am I wrong??
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by PCC »

rgeralde wrote:I am feeding her when she is not in the room, so as not to have to deal with the potential of the aggressive behavior. And, another thing . . . I have been feeding her the Puppy Chow throughout the day
I am not an expert by any means, but most experienced dog trainers recommend only feeding once or twice per day, at set times (always roughly the same time of day), and to never have food out for them to eat whenever. As I said to before, if they get food without working for it, that could lead to possessiveness, which in turn brings out aggressiveness.
Last edited by PCC on Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ursa's daddy
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Ursa's daddy »

With puppies, they will be typically fed three or four times a day. Our adult dogs are fed twice a day. I have also fed adult dogs just once a day. We have a ritual that we use every day for feeding. The bowls are picked up and a measured quantity is placed in each bowl. We have a marked cup that is used, and each dog gets his/her own portion. The dogs are then required to "sit" and "wait" when the food is placed on the floor. The food is not put down until the dogs are sitting. Since the chows are fed in the same room, BOTH dogs have to sit before the food bowls are put out.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Sarahloo »

Where did you buy Ginger? Was it from nice people or more of a shady thing where you don't really know how she spent the first weeks of her life? Because it could be that she's already had bad experiences with men at her breeders. It's always men who hurt animals, never women, god knows why! Loo was scared to death of men when I adopted him, and it took years of work to make his fear of men go away.

Food aggression is a very common problem. Have you googled it to see what people recommend that you do? I have never had a greedy pet, so I don't really know about it. You're doing the right thing at the moment, filling her bowl out of reach for her little greedy mouth! :D If she's not too thin, then you are feeding her enough! That's a pretty straightforward business. If dogs are underfed, you can see it. She just loves to eat, I guess, maybe one of her ancestors was a Lab! :) If she can't take a treat from you in a peaceful manner = no more treats and a little more dinner.
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rgeralde
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by rgeralde »

Thanks for your input, all.

She is really out of sorts today. It is written all over her. She does not want to be bothered, and she is just stewing around. She even acted oddly when I petted her this a.m. when we awoke . . . like she was nervous and thought I was going to do something painful to her . . . I am starting to really suffer over the sudden change in her demeanor . . . and, I am feeling a real trust issue here. Sad, so sad. Never been in this situation before.

Her original breeder was a kindly woman, but I will say that the mother and father dogs were put up and out of my reach when I went to view the pups. They said they were not social, and I could not be around them. That was probably a bad sign. But, I have tried really hard to socialize my Ginger . . . have taken her out in the car to pick my daughter up from basketball practice and go into the gym to see all the girls. She has always loved that. Taken her to visit my mother in law, taken her to the vet, always well behaved and happy toward everyone. We live way out in the country so when we take long walks, we don't see other people, however.

Since she is a pup, I am feeding 4 times a day for now. That is my new change. But, I will admit that I am doing it when she is not in the room. Guess I better get a dog obedience person involved. I really have only taught her to sit in one circumstance . . . that is when I go out the front door. I have taught her to sit / stay on the top step into the entry (or exit, if you will), rather than coming down the stairs to the front door/exit. That is to keep her from running out, obviously. I have not taught general "sitting", and don't really know that I know how to do that.

Sad . . . never had a dog that I had to really train to behave / want loving attention. Feeling really sad and overwhelmed. :-( The change is all so sudden.

Feeling like I need to wear protective gear to mess with her. How will I bathe her if she is still acting so dodgy? Hoping this behavior is very temporary. Maybe has to do with the Frontline . . . don't know.

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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Rory's Dad »

Just another take on this, but is sounds like more of a food bowl aggression than the food itself. It sounds like you are filling the bowl in place and then she is reacting. This could very well be a behavior inrooted in the early stages of her puppyhood...a bit of an aside, but my brother has a small breed dog who get the same toy he has had for 7 years and goes into a corner and whines after every meal. We have a special diet for our Chow, and have had it since we got him. He gets cottage cheese or yogurt for breakfast, and his big old tongue just mashes that stuff into the bowl until he cant get anymore. I always ask him if he wants help, and then spoon the remaining food out of the corners for him. He knows if i grab his bowl, its so he can get to his food and is not threatening or taking away from him in any way.

Now, i think the explanation on the Frontline has merit. I have heard that several times. I would recommend taking the bowl up before he goes outside. Fill it on the counter and as Ursa suggested, have the dog sit before placing the filled bowl down. I wouldnt recommend my 'help' method at this time, but maybe after he finishes a smaller portion, have him sit again and give him a 2nd helping so he figures it out. You are his source of food, and that goes a long way towards establishing your position in the pack.

My dog has the option to graze on dry food during the day, and i know a lot of people dont like this method, but it's just available, and he really doesnt eat much of it while we are out. He usually eats his breakfast and leaves the dry food until we get home. Same in the later evening, where he has his chicken or beef, goes out, and has the dry almost like a desert. Then he goes out for the final events of the evening. It sounds like you should limit the feeding times to 2x day.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by rgeralde »

While I was ready to throw in the towel earlier today (my post from earlier today has not hit yet), I am feeling a bit better now. We have had some positive behavior this evening, and I am going to take that as a win. I guess maybe this is going to be a bit like a roller coaster, huh? My daughter usually has a parade of 16 year old girls coming through the house . . . part of being a teenager, I guess! Anyway, Ginger always loves all those girls, but has this problem toward new men or young men. Tonight, she came into the house with a "strange" boy, and while Ginger was a bit leary of him at first, eventually, she was actually licking him and wanting his attention. He was a good one, he was very calm and low key around her, and she responded positively . . . that was really nice to see! Also, she has been a happier her since about 4 p.m. this evening. It seems this depression thing lasts from the time we get up till about 4 p.m., then she transforms into her old self. She has been great ever since. And, she was checking out her food dish to see if anything magically appeared, and my 23 year old son walked by her and he just bent down and picked her up and hugged her. Something I would not do right now under the circumstances of the last couple of days. I was cringing while I saw it happen in slow mo . . . but, she just licked his face . . . no negative reaction to him threatening "her space" . . . so, again, that was a good thing. My son has interjected that I am always on top of her . . . like always in her face, babying her and talking to her and picking her up and hugging her . . . like constantly. He thinks I am just bothering her too much. He told her that he feels her pain. So, I am going to try to back off a bit and not be in her face constantly . . . and, I am always the voice of authority around her . . . always clucking my tongue at her and correcting her. I think she may just be flat out tire of all my interaction . . . anyway, I am happy to report that she seems her old self again. Let's see how tomorrow goes . . . thanks to all for all the advice on the feeding thing. I am trying to get a grip on it. Today was the first day of her getting the full ration of food per the Puppy Chow bag . . . hopefully, her tummy is full, and she is not feeling so desperate for the food. Maybe that will help, too. Thanks for allowing me to vent!
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

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We had problems with Henry not eating, we were told to put his food down twice a day and remove after 20 mins, we tried all different foods, eventually one day I just left the bowl of food there and lo and behold Henry ate what he wanted, when he wanted. He will tell me when his bowl is empty, he will supervise me filling it back up, to make sure I have done it right and then when I've put it down for him, he will sniff, maybe nibble a bit and then leave it for when he is hungry again, we've done this sine about 6 months old.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

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Yes, Ty was the same way with food as Henry and Rory. I don't think it's aggression with free feeding as much because they know the food will always be there, could be wrong. I noticed right away that Ty was a finicky eater and between our schedules, he wouldn't have a set feeding time anyways because our schedules are constantly changing and rotating. One thing that I practiced with Ty was the sitting before giving him food when I would feed him. Especially if he ran out because maybe he only had a little left and he was still hungry (if you're wondering how we can tell, he picks up the bowl and brings it to the middle of the living room floor for us to see. If he's finished, he'll just leave it)I also made him look at me during this exercise. Also, with any bones, chewies, toys, etc. If he was playing with said item, I would pick it up randomly to gauge his reaction which was never any question. He'd just look at me and wait patiently. I would reward him with a good boy and pat and return the item. Any sort of aggression is not acceptable, especially with food (my personal household rules). If you go through these exercises and he argues when you take it away, he doesn't get it back till he works for it. No argument, give it back with praise and kindness. He'll get the idea.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Victory »

Yes Chows don't always take to constantly being the center of attention, especially if they don't feel well. Remember that Frontline is a neurotoxin, that's how it kills the fleas, so some pets who are sensitive to it may react strangely to it. Also I free feed both my two, but even though food is down for them 24/7 they will often wait until I am in the room with them to eat it. They are so weird.
Chows are a lot like cats and need their own space and time to do what they want and also a place to go to get away from all the action in the house. I live alone, but when I lived with my two chows with other people, every once in a while I turn around and they both would be down stairs each in his own spot, by themselves, just chillin, or meditating or whatever it is they do. When they wanted to interact they'd come back up stairs and do so.

Glad she's being better.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Piff Poff »

LOL, Henry usually waits until after we have eaten before he eats.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Rory's Dad »

Kind of odd how your son reacts to how you coddle and then instruct the chow...he may be onto something there. Don't get me wrong, this is exactly what a parent should do, both with their human children and with their chowdren. I think you just may be seeing a similar reaction. Your chow is acting exactly like a teen child would. Rebeling to some degree, but still wanting your approval.

I am concerned that the breeder kept the parents off limits and openly stating they are not socialized. This behavior can be passed down to the litter. It can be overcome, but requires some work. Your son seems to have established the bond, i would encourage that. I have the same with my daughter and Rory...Rory has decided that she is his person. He knows that I am in charge, feed him, and do his at home grooming, but my daughter is his best friend. She can pick him up and flip him around (i cringe every time she does this, afraid he is going to end up hurt or decide he has has enough), but he tolerates it because its her. Amazes me every time. She is 14, but he continues to react like she's playing with a doll.

I know your posts take time to get approved and listed, so there will be some cross advice before your next updates, but consider my earlier post about not filling the bowl at his level. Pick it up, fill it, and put it back. This will ensure that he has to sit back and wait for it. Even try speaking with him after its filled...have him sit, lay, stay, etc before placing it down for him. Show him that he must work (behave) for his food. This teaches a pecking order, and he knows he relies on you for the food.

Work on the men fear...it may be that the controlling persons before you got him were not always kind...likely men and pups know the difference. Nice breakthrough with your son, but you will need to introduce him to other males and assure him that its ok.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

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I like TyChowgirl's description of handling chew toys and the like. I have always worked with my dogs to make sure they trust me and will allow me to take items from them and to examine them anywhere I want. I will take their chew hooves and pretend to eat them and then put them in my pocket. I don't know what they think of this, but they will let the old man have his way with the items. Ursa has to be given medication every day, and my wife will very unceremonially grab her lower jaw, hold her mouth open and stuff the pills down her throat. I try to have a little finesse. Of course, she tells me that her method works well with horses, so I won't argue. Ursa doesn't seem to object.
I am not exactly sure how to describe the process I have used to get my dogs to accept such treatment, because it is something I have always done. They are doing some thinking inside those furry heads, and it is our job to try and understand what it is. Some understand is gained by general knowledge of canine behavior, but a lot of it will be gained by carefully studying Ginger's reaction/response to different events. Each dog is an individual, and I have found this especially true of chows. They have their own extra playbook for dog behavior.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Auddymay »

Try NILF which stands for nothing in life is free. http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining/a/ ... l_nilf.htm If you google it you can even find a YouTube video about it.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

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In both instances where your Chow growled and snapped (with you putting food in her bowl and then, with Your husband doing same thing with same result) HOW did you react? Did you reprimand or you just kept quiet and silently felt aghast?
You must correct her at that moment. You must not tolerate that aggression even though she is not feeling well. You do that by talking back to her in a firm voice. I think she did challenged and has seen how you reacted and have tried her luck and seen how your husband reacted. If you will be acting passively or has acted passively during those two times she growled, you' MIGHT get random aggression (called erratic viciousness) later in life.
She is PURE chow. Your first chow is a mix. Big big difference there. What you are seeing - irritability - is a chow behavior. You need to understand she needs space if you are always cuddling her or something. But food aggression or bowl aggression is still aggression and should not be accepted passively. Else it can escalate.

My puppy would do things to me which she knows I dont like. She now knows my angry voice and my soothing voice as well as my Ouch! voice. If she feels playful she'd play bow and repeatedly teases. If she is frustrated that I havent given the treat to her yet even though she already did a sit -which is quicker than a blink of an eye - she's lounge and try to snatch the treat out of my hand. Very mischievous pup (almost 4months) amd she is the top dog among her littermates so you get the picture.
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Clovers_Mom »

I am not sure how much I can help in your issue... I have always brought Clover around people, when I was working, when I 1st got her, she would bring her to work with me everyday, she was around men and woman, she has always had a 'issue' or taken longer to warm up to a males. My breeder was a lovely lady, and I have had Clover since 7wks. Her being 5 months now, she is becoming better with Males, thankfully. I do suggest you bring her to 'puppy school', if for nothing else, it's great for thier socialization. Plus, in dreary days, it can keep thier mind busy when you train with them at home.
I did want to mention that you may want to review the ingrediants in Puppy Chow...This is what my breeder told me she was eating when I got her, thankfully since I drove 11 hours to get Clover, she gave me some- enough to wean her off of it, and onto Blue, in my opinion Any Organic and lower protien food, could also make a difference in her moods, plus it is healthier all around for her.
Agree with Cam Atis- she is pure Chow... they are the most amazing dogs, that Clover has given me, but in my experience- when they are moody, they are moody. When they don't want to do something, the just dont. I will be on the floor with Clover and patting her etc. if she doesn't 'feel' like it, she will get up move 3ft away then lay back down, with her backside towards me .. yup.....
Good Luck!!!
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Cocoa »

I will be on the floor with Clover and patting her etc. if she doesn't 'feel' like it, she will get up move 3ft away then lay back down, with her backside towards me .. yup.....
In my house that is what's known as the royal chow snub, I think it comes naturally to them.
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Cam Atis
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Cam Atis »

Yes to Clover's Mom on chow's behaviour. If they dont wanna, they dont wanna. If Cassie doesnt wanna come, while she is resting under the car, she wont lift a paw to let me know she's there! :-) i think she figured, that's the only place where she can get "solitude" as my car is a Yaris and has only 200mm cleareance. Hahahaha. Soon enough she'd be so big she wont fit in there anymore. I get the last laugh
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Clovers_Mom »

Royal Chow Snub- that is Perfect hahaaa ! ;-)
As for the Yaris, hehe- I have a Mini .... Who's Really getting the comedy show when our girls are full grown and jumping out of our cars ;-) .... To the public, I say your welcome now.... ha.....
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Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by MissV »

Shame :( I know what you must have been going thru because my dog bit me once - and I freaked out - and I was scared of her for a while. Trust yourself, trust your dog. DONT BE SCARED.
Also, NILF that Auddymay spoke of is def the best way to go about raising any dog. Try get to obidience classes if you can. They do wonders with exposing your pet to other people and other dogs in a safe enviroment. Its very beneficial :)
Then: one final tip from me... make sure your dog is ok with being touched EVERYWHERE. Play with his ears, his paws, his tail. Hug him from different angles. Your dog needs to realise that you're not going to hurt him. Once your relationship gets really good with him, teach him to let you touch his teeth and inside his mouth. This is the ultimate trust :> If your dog is comfortable with you touching his teeth and rubbing his gums, then you're solid with your dog. ps. Please take this slow. If you just try put your hand in your dogs mouth - expect to be nipped. Everything takes time.
Pure is the heart of an animal - Evil is the heart of man...
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Clovers_Mom
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Location: Melrose, Massachusetts, USA

Re: Concerned about Chow Behavior

Post by Clovers_Mom »

Sorry for the side comment post earlier! ... I just thought of 2 things- why I didnt mention previously...
To get Clover acclimated better with Men,or people coming into our house- as much as I do not like to treat drive behavior... along with all of the other great tips given, I have gave the person a very small treat to give to Clover, and normally this will get the man or 'stranger' acclimated with her.
Yes, with feeding I get her food from the other room, and then she has to sit and stay before she is able to be in front of her food and eat. She has now come to expect that she has to sit and stay before she has any meal.
I am sure that your pups behavior will get better, since I feel like Clover is right around the same age as yours, 5M, right? (I cannot see the prev. posts right now) - I feel like they definetly go through phases. Thank Goodness we have just passed the 'whining' phase. To the teenage years we go! Keep us updated!
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