Teenage Chow Challenging Authority

[MissV]

Hi,
As you guys know, Slush is just over 8 months.
Shes always well behaved - only recently, shes been advanced to the intermediate dog class (she graduated from puppy class) and theres a new trainer for the medium level dogs.
Lets just say that I dont agree with her training methods - but shes gotten amazing results from dogs her entire life. I just dont think her methods are going to work with a chow.
Basically, she really REALLY uses the choke chain. One lesson with her - and my chowlie shut down completely. She wouldnt sit, come... heel... NOTHING. Now, slush was always good with everything except walking to heel. She likes to run up ahead. The leash will be lose, but she isnt behind me.
I'm not sure if this is all my fault in not always insisting that she be behind me.

Long story short - this dog is challenging my authority now. She very rarely does what shes told, and due to her mange, we are still dipping her once a week. Yesterday was dipping day, and then it came time to get her into the tub, she growled at me (i was horrified!) and then lashed out and bit me when i tried to pick her up.

...

i was MORTIFIED! why did my dog bite me?!?!?! Shes never done anything like that before! Thank the pope it wasnt hard!
She was sent to a time out for 15mins in her crate.
when i let her out, i just ignored her and she cried a little.

We attemped the dip again later that day, and my boyfriend got bit - again, not hard... but it was most def warning bites. He couldnt care less, he scooped her up and put her in the dip! She wasnt very impressed.

Right then, i need help! How do i stop my dog from thinking that biting is acceptable when she doesnt want to do something, and how do i keep myself in the alpha position during the time? I'm standing my ground with her, but lately, if she doesnt want to do something, she just wont do it.

Where has my perfect dog gone?!??!

[Sarahloo]

1st thing to do is get a muzzle so you can still give her the baths she needs! You are right: you can't let her get used to using her teeth to prove a point.

[TyChowgirl]

Ok, there seems to be a lot going on here so let me take it one by one.
First off, the trainer is insistant that you use the slip chain? I would switch to a new trainer if possible. It's been my experience that those are only necessary training tools for some dogs. It seems your chowlie was doing well up until that, so whatever positive training you did with her was working. Not all dogs need this, though during a heel it is useful. But there are other ways, many other ways and on a dog to dog basis your chow may not take to that particular tool. Talk with the trainer first to see if she/he could modify that for Slush. Heel isn't always necessary either (in my dog training courses I've read that,)it seems most of the time heel is more of a working/showing thing and not something a regular house dog needs to know. It's easier to teach controlled walking where the leash is somewhat slack and the dog won't pull. This can also variate to having the dog mostly on either side (trainers prefer the left, but I know mine likes to switch sides so as long as he's by my side I allow it) or nearly the whole length of the lead with slack or give. That's a more satisfying result for a stubborn chow and a determined owner because everyone wins. As long as the dog complies when you give them less leash without pulling, it's good.
Second, you said 8 months? You've been on this site long enough to know she's hitting her adolescent age and no matter how perfect she was before she'll start to challenge you again. NILF. And train her at home on the basics she already knows to re-assert your authority. Be patient and consistant. She'll get over it eventually!
Third, the biting. With everything that's going on she could be tempermental and also, she could be hurting from the mange so be careful how you handle her. If you must get a muzzle, make sure you just don't force it on her, but ease her into is with a treat on the other side. There may be some youtube videos on how to succesfully do this. Then dip/bathe her. Or present a treat when you get to the tub, pick her up, put her in. If there's not biting or growling, reward. Do this without anything in the tub to get her used to being put in and out, that way she relates it with something positive. Hang in there. I'm sure it'll get better.

[Judy Fox]

but shes gotten amazing results from dogs her entire life.[quote][/quote]

I may be wrong but this quote from you post is, I think, a clue.

If she is successful with "dogs" she might not be successful with chow chows - they are not dogs they are Chow Chows

She is a stroppy teenagaer and she has been humiliated with a choker chain and does not like it. So, I suggest you go back to square one. Ease off the training for a little while and go back to the basics quietly and affectionately with her on your own and with your husband. Don't shout at her or hit her - sorry - I am sure I diod not need to say that. Firm - you are the Mummy and Daddy people - she is the Chow Chow - you say - she does. Then when she has calmed down perhaps you can resume training.

Has she had her first heat yet? Remember she could have little diddy chow chow hormones flipping round her beautifuly teenage body and she just feels a bit grotty on top of everything else.

Hope all goes well and just give her a hug from me.

[oceans]

From the way you describe how the trainer uses the choke collar (really, really uses the choke chain), I think it might be to much. I don't think Slush much appreciates this. I think her actions prove that. She is trying to tell you I don't think so. As far as the bath if she has been ok up to this point maybe the stress of everything (mange, choke collar classes) is adding up. I would say back off for a little bit and let her chill. The do tend to get to big for there britches at this age but it really sounds like you have a good girl. I just don't think chows need choke chains. I also don't think a trainer can say one collar fits all dogs with regards to training. Hopefully the trainer would be more adaptable to use something else on Slush, if not I would go some place else.

[Rory's Dad]

I dont think i can add to this...

by MissV » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:42 am

wowza!
gosh, im so sorry for you You must be seriously caught between a rock and a hard place...
I think in order to treat the problem you have to start at baby steps again. If your dog is biting out of fear, it must mean at some point, some where... something happened to cause your dog to fear "something". I seriously doubt a well kept, pampered, sheltered family dog would develop biting just "out of the blue" without it being neurological as said above.
Have you ever let your dog be looked after by someone else not in the family? You mention that you are away quite a bit. Could it be that someone else was cruel to your dog?

OK! if you cant pinpoint on that, then call a dog school in your area. Sign up for at least 6 - 8 weeks and work with your dog, around other people, and other dogs.
Make sure you warn the trainers first about the problems so that they can arrange to socialize your dog carefully into the group.

Also, there may be pack order problems. Make sure you dog understands that the family is alpha at all times. As long as you are alpha, there should be no reason to not disipline your dog (now this is the part most of the people on this site will disagree with me): my pup used to bit us a lot. Her mouthing and her biting got out of control at one point, and she was tearing into us, and our family and friends and it was just too much. The trainer at my doggie school said it was perfectly fine to give a small, sharp, smack on the nose. Now, the thing about smacking your dog, is that it needs to seem like the smack came from nowhere. Like as if God himself came out of the sky,*booped* your dog on the nose and went back to heaven. Quick! The dog cannot associate you with the discipline. If you like, its best to correct the dog with the leash. Giving it a little quick whip with the leash and then going back to whatever you were doing like nothings happened startes the dog and also teaches him that he cant get away with EVERYTHING!
I have seen the trainers at my dog school correct thier dogs many times (and only for agressive behaviour), and they are perfect, well ballanced dogs - who are dearly devoted to thier owners.

While I understand that we all have different methods of correcting our dogs, I believe this is a pretty darn good one. My pup learnt very quickly what was acceptable - and what wasnt. If you feel bad about giving your dog a small smack on the nose, carry a water bottle around and spray him in the face. AGAIN - please remember, you cannot disipline your dog if the pack order isnt clear. Your dog may get aggressive with you, and things could get worse. So please... try a good dog school first. Your trainers alwasys have invaluable advice.

p.s i love my dog, and i dont beat her up!!!!!!! (and shes one of the most advanced puppies at school, which even the trainers have told me is incredible for a chow!)

[MissV]

well, and there we have it! i was waiting to see if someone was going to do that, and there it is.
sharp as a button arent you, rory's dad?
to everyone else, thanks for the advice.
Im going to make my mind up this weekend if im going to continue on with lessons as i too disagree with the choke chain method.
To Rory's dad... i stand by the times i have corrected my dog in the past. I believe she would have reacted no differenly with the bathing if the situation had been different. The totaly of 3 times i have given her a tap on the nose when she was a pup was for biting. She knows its wrong, but shes lashing out when we force her - ie: bath time! IE: SHES BEING DEFIANT. The prev dogs problem was very different. It was lashing out for no reason, AND I didnt recommend he start hitting an agressive dog that he'd lost his authority with. wtf?

for what its worth, i took a half hour yesterday and had some one-on-one time with Slush and a cheese and chicken sausage. She was very good with her training, and she was even better on her walk. She is a VERY clever girl. Come to think of it, I would have expected no less of her but for her to test me.
If her mange doesnt improve, im going to give her the ivomectin (sp??) injections. These dips are taking it out of all of us and stressing us all out! NOT COOL!

[TyChowgirl]

Oh, I forgot to ask. Did your vet say what caused the mange? I think it was you I asked what you had her on...was it you who said Science diet? I can't remember...it may have been someone else. I just know that if it was, Ty had a horrible reaction to it and chewed off half the fur on his underbelly and legs. I switched and he stopped the biting within one week. It was almost instant and his fur is back now.

[chowpups]

I had over the course of time taken Nikki to a few trainers just to keep her up on socializing mostly and refresher stuff too.
One very well known trainer in the area wanted me to use a pronged choker on Nikki she recommended it for all dogs that didn't heal..WE LEFT THAT DAY
Nikki never really learned to heal but she walked fine on a leash, not pulling but not a real heal, but that was fine for me and her. she wasn't a show dog so no need to be so worried if she was too far in front or a little behind.As long as she wasn't pulling I was happy and so was she.
The best trainer I had owned a few cats and related to Nikki.The best..Humm I think they thought alike.

[oceans]

Chowpups- I couldn't agree more with your comments. Very well said.

[Sarahloo]

Heeling is only for loser dogs anyway!

[oceans]

Sarahloo- I asked Matilda what she thought and she agreed.

[Cocoa]

Well said Nancy. I have never worried about Cocoa heeling, she usually walks close to me anyway, only trying to pull (unsuccessful with the easy walk harness) if she sees another dog she wants to play with or a cat or squirrel she wants to chase.

[Sirchow]

Just a quick add here...I show my chows and they dont have to walk to heal...I have only ever seen dogs like collies who are doing heel work do that at shows. Mine walk slightly in front of me and we are all comfortable with that. They wear slip leads of an inch wide woven nylon and if they go too far ahead the smallest twitch from me and they slow down and the leads slackens off round their necks as soon as I let it go as it is slippy nylon. (they wear harnesses for security as they can get out their slip leads).
I took them to show classes and the man who ran them tried to get them to stand like other dogs for showing but chows dont normally stand in exagerated show stance anyway and he got frustrated cos they wouldn't do what they were told and threatened to strike Bramble so we walked straight out without even saying a word and never went back....It didn't stop them both wining prizes at crufts - the biggest dog show in the world.
So I guess what I wanted to say is try to see things from the dogs point of view and nothing except life threatening situations is worth upsetting the whole relationship you have. Go with what feels right and fair and good to your baby and dont let someone who trains dogs try to tell you what is best for your chow....chances are they never have managed to "train" a chow. As chows grow they go through different phases and behaviours and it is wise to remember that they will change and mature and things seldom stay the same. I can remember thinking I had to "fix" certain behaviours and I never did with most of them but a lot of them they just grew out of and some I decided just didn't matter too much. Best of luck.

[Cam Atis]

MissV Ivomectin is a good injectable medicine for mange. Although I haven't used it but I heard it is good from my friend who does nit have the patience to bath his pitbulls frequently.. Is there any chance that you can find BAYER products in your local veterinary store? I used one of their product to treat Cookie's skin and Blue's in what to me is the beginning of mange. I shampoo the dog, rinse VERY well, then lastly, I rinsed their thin coat with the solution, towel dry. It is important she won't lickthe solution - for her safety. Its brand is Neguvon powder - use: acaricide. However, because I now know first hand how difficult it is to wet a chow's coat (I bathe Cassie, thank u for admiring her ...would u like to give Slush a professional hair trim much much closer to skin much like a Dalmatian's hair? In that way you can be sure that the solution gets to skin 100% of the body area. Then You dont have to dip her in the solution. I pour a gallon of solution. A sachet of Neguvon 10g is dissolved in 2gallons or 8 liters of water if I remember right. Perhaps, reason why you and your vet is unsuccesful with her mange is because not all skin areas were being wet 100% by the dip solution if you are dipping her given her double coat. (I'm a pharmacist by profession).
Perhaps she bit you because she doesnt want to be dipped. But I know you know it if your dog mean it or just plain mistake. Did you reprimand Slush verbally? Like going ballistic verbally at her? Dogs can make mistake (biting their owner) if they are in pain or maybe Slush is irritable. next time she does bite you even so slightly, go ballistic verbally. Much ballistic if there's blood show it to her. Then try ignore her for 5min while you torniquet ur wound. Then go to her and verbally repimand again but with lesser intensity. Worked with my dals before. I hope Slush gets cured of her mange. But ivomec is a lot easier and hassle free alternative for you and slush.

[Cam Atis]

Oh dont forget to ignore her after 2nd or 3rd reprimand (for that day!) till she comes to you. You might dangle her food in her sight if it is feeding time or treat time. You wait till she comes to you. If not, well, she'll starve... I know She'll change her mind and make amends.

[Sarahloo]

Sarahloo- I asked Matilda what she thought and she agreed.

Matilda is a winner!

[MissV]

Thanks for the advice everyone.
Its so appreciated, you have no idea. You're all re-iterating what was going through my mind the whole time.
I dont think this current trainer is best for Slush at all.
I dont like forcing her into doing things she doesnt like. It upsets her, and it upsets me... and then we have a whole upset household!

Im still upset with her biting me. That was off sides from her. Yesterday she growled at my boyfriend when he told her to go inside (we were going out somewhere, and she stays inside when we do). This whole "i'm not going to do what you want me to" thing is really bothering me.
Although she didnt bite hard, the fact remains that she bit because she was forced into doing something she didnt want to... ie: Bath then dip.

Cam - I always bath slush before the dip so her coat is soaked through. That way when we dip her, the water gets down to her skin really easily.
Its been 8 weeks of dipping. Im exhausted! Sundays at my house are such a trauma!

Oh, and yes - she is on Hills. Its sad, but Hills is the best we have here! Should i switch her over to a eukanuba for sensitive skin? I've heard Eukanuba isnt very good.

Ps. we went to the dog park yesterday afternoon and Slush saw another 2 chows for the 1st time ever! all dogs were so chilled an socialized, it was awesome. I ended up chatting to the owners who equally were having problems with their dogs. *sigh* such is life...

[Sarahloo]

Hills is great for dogs with health issues! I had Loo on their sensitive stomach food and it agreed well with him!

[TyChowgirl]

It sounds like her mange is all around? So it's probably just mites and not food allergies. If you find a lot of it is around her stomach though, it couldn't hurt to try just in case. I found this site particularly helpful http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/all/
Like I said, reactions to things happen on a dog to dog basis. Some aren't bothered by anything, some are. But I could have sworn someone else has had issues with hot spots and hills and it wasn't just Tiberius. I refuse to go back to it. Since it's commercialized the quality of their food is perceived to be far better than it is anymore. Which is sad, because it used to be awesome.

[Yvonne]

I'm like everybody else - I think Slush is just totally and completely ticked off about the choke chain incident. Although it is distrubing that it brought about biting to the extent and for the length of time that it has, even with the family.

I would definitely dump the trainer, unless he or she is very readily acceptable to changing methods and you really trust her otherwise. In retrospect, you probably should have left when she got the choke chain out, but hindsight is perfect 20/20 and who would have thought it would have brought about this reaction? I don't think it matters how successful she has been with other dogs, or even other chows. If you believe in your heart she is wrong for Slush, that's all that matters. Slush is your kid, not hers, and you are the one responsible for Slush, so don't feel bad about taking her out of that class if you feel it is the right thing to do. Just like with human teachers and pupils, once in a while you get a really good teacher with a good reputation that is just wrong for a particular pupil. Doesn't mean they are a bad teacher, just that their methods are not right for that pupil.

As far as the trainer that Chowpups talked about that wanted a pronged choke collar used on all dogs that wouldn't heel, I would have taken my kid and left, also, regardless of whether it was a chowkid or some other breed of canine child. I don't believe in that stuff, except maybe in the case of a dog that has had severe behavioral problems. Not heeling is not a problem of that magnitude, in my opinion.

As far as what to do now about the biting, not sure on that one. It is disturbing. Couple of things I can throw out here - are you using NILIF? I have never specifically used it myself, but I think I might try it in your situation. Make Slush work for everything she gets except the most basic things she needs to live. That might help restablish your authority.

As far as Slush being mad about the choke chain - about the only way to get a chow to quit being mad is to not make them that way in the first place. My own personality is a lot like our chow chows, so sometimes with mine I would ask myself what I would respond to, and sometimes that helped. Sounds silly, but it has worked sometimes when dealing with my chowkids.

She needs to understand that you aren't going to force a choke chain on her, but she does have to get over being ticked off enough to have a civil attitude toward her humans and the world in general. I know you aren't letting her get her way by biting, but it may also be a good idea to make sure it doesn't get an overdue amount of negative attention. Just correct the problem, make her do what she has to do, and move on. LIke human kids, a chow will try for any attention, even negative.

Not sure if that adds a lot to what has been said or help any, but wanted to put my comments out here.

Best of luck!

Yvonne

[Rory's Dad]

Yvonne brings up some good points...we have all posted about some vets not being comfortable with out chows, and i think this relates to some trainers as well. Probably the trainer insists on the choke collar out of lack of experience with chows or even fear. Obviously Slush would sense this.

MissV, we have our differences over training philosophy, but we both have the dogs best interest at heart. I know you love Slush and want the best.

I agree that removing Slush from this class is probably a good idea. Forcing a situation on Slush that neither you nor the dog is comfortable with will do no good.

We are working with Rory for the show ring, so heel walking is important to us, but as others have posted, it doesnt need to be a skill for most dogs. I think the training classes should be more about general behavior, socializing, and basic command skills. For chows, leash behavior doesnt fit into any of these categories.

As for correcting the recent poor behavior, the change in scenery (not going to this training class) may be enough. Stepping back a bit to the earlier learned behavior is more likely going to be a positive. Sensitivity to the mange issue is a valid answer, so try a lot of 'hands on' without the dip scenario, see if that is different. We all know that chows have that 'cat' attitude, my earlier chows hated bathing, so it may just be that situation that irks Slush enough to cause the bite reflex.

[Cam Atis]

Yes Hill's (if you are saying Hill's Science Diet) is VERY good - if not excellent in formulation, albeit expensive one. I've used it . It shouldn't cause food allergy to MOST dogs, but we can't rule out the few who are super sensitive. Rice based formula will be best for them. I don't use Eukanuba because of some health issues - kidney trouble - in some dogs.6925687680021

There should be no question what causes Slush's mange because her skin disease has been diagnosed: namely, Mange (which is caused by mites). Food allergy is a whole different thing. There's less than 1% chance Hill's can cause the mange to flare up. Eggs though, causes skin conditions to flare up.

Try giving Ivomectin a shot. It is pretty safe if administered by the vet so you and Slush can have a time out from dipping. HOw is Slush? Getting cranky due to her age huh? I haven't seen such dramatic behavioral changes from all my dogs (not chows though) during teenage months.

Cassie is showing her spunk to Princess this morning. She barked and snapped at her and Princess backed off. I wonder if she might use that to me some day when she'll be older and cranky.

[MissV]

thank you Yvonne for your advice- you've made some excellent points and I will most def take heed of all of them. As far as home life with Slush goes - "nothing in life is free" is 100% in place, and has been since the day we got her. If she gets the smallest treat, she has to sit nicely for it. Even before we go for walks, she must be 100% calm and seated at the door. She is not allowed to budge until i'm out the door and call her to follow. She's very VERY good with these things.

Rory's dad, thank you for being civil. I appreciate your advice also.
I know that forcing Slush to take baths now are going to be a problem, but I dont want her to think that by growling or biting us shes going to get away with doing things that she doesnt want to do.

I was at the vet yesterday - i was going to pick up some more food (was going to take your advice TyChow and get a food for sensitive skin), but when the vet saw me going through all the products she came and had a little chat with me. I asked her about the food change and she said that it really wouldnt make a difference for Slush at all. She said she has demodetic mange and food isnt going to solve that. Then i spoke to her about the biting incident, and she said some dogs are just more stubborn than others. She said, "if she growls at you, stand over her and take a step closer. Do not show your dog that you have fear of her, or she will have won". Is that right?
I wont lie - after Slush bit me, I was a little weary of her.
I've worked with a lot of dogs, and i've only ever been bitten twice. Once by a boxer who was VERY aggressive (in retrospect, it was my fault) - and now by my own dog
I have to dip her. I have no choice. So am i just going to have to be bitten again ???
Last night I was trying to get her used to me putting my arm around her bottom and her chest (the way i pick her up) so she didnt get mad. The second I take that position, she plants her butt on the ground and refuses to move.
How do i re-programme my dog? lol. What a situation!!!!!

You're all right about the trainer tho. That one is def going!!!! I have no doubt in my mind that her work with slush that weekend triggered something in my dogs brain. I've never seen an animal shut down so fast in my life!

Cam - just read your post now I will stick to the hills. You and my vet have the same advice regarding the food AND... i'm considering the injections. Seriously! Just so we dont have to endure the drama on the weekends for the dips!

[Cam Atis]

Glad to be of help MissV. Gotta sign out now, gotta see my 8month old baby as well as Cassie.
Also to add to your vet's advice, be prepared to be bitten (again) but never stepped back. (of course you'll step back while Slush is at your arms but once she let go, stand or walk nearer to her but NEVER hug her right away. DON'T walk away until you have finished reprimanding her verbally ( I talked and talked blah! blah! blah! just like I am scolding a human being - dogs dont understand anyway so she wont know what's what, but she'll feel in your tone that you are mad! and you'll look like you've lost it from your neighbor's point of view hahaha) Look her straight in the eyes if she'll look back at you. (but Expect a look away from Slush - she'll do that coz she's still young) . Then after you "outburst" - walk away from her, nurse your wound, sometimes look at her and blurt out more if she's around, (she'll look away again). Later (about an hour or more) if she's cool, try calling her to you. see her reaction if she'll come or not. Cookie normally was wary of coming to me, but she comes so I meet her halfway sometimes - once she comes I speak soothingly to give her confidence back -. I normally stomped my feet with such heaviness when I am REALLY MAD (like if they just destructed the plants or something really stressful or forbidden) I just wonder if that will work with a chow.
gotta go now! bye now friend. See you around.