Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

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cherriemater
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Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:31 pm

I have just uploaded this video but it is unlisted. PLEASE DO NOT SHARE WITHOUT PERMISSION. I am coming to you folks, my friends and mentors, because this is the FIRST time ANY type of aggression has been shown by either. They share the same food dish and can eat side-by-side if they choose. We also have a secondary dish that we keep food in most of the time if they want to eat separate. They share the same water dish. They will go back and forth to each dish with NO trouble at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUIRIcSBWhs

In retrospect, I shouldn't have turned off the camera, but I grabbed Leo's harness (or rough, I can't remember) and took both bowls away from him immediately and threw them away. Treat time DONE! There was no other growling or biting or anything from either after that.

What do you see from this video?? Max is a slower eater and yesterday when giving them a rice treat I set down two separate bowls. Leo wolfed his down, but Max took his time. Leo tried to get to Max's bowl, but I held him back and said in soft, calming voice, "Noooo, that's Max's. You can lick his bowl when he's done." Which is what I allowed him to do.

Should I be overly concerned (my worry-wart is grown by the second)? Do I just need to do a bit of training? Did I do wrong with the treat? Ugh! I'm going crazy inside because the boys have been so good.

Please help. Thanks all for your kind advice and replies.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby BeckiHutton » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:38 pm

Marti... I think you are worrying way too much. That wasn't aggressive. Leo had claimed them both as his, and when Max came over to get one, Leo was telling him it's mine. If that happens again, take the tins off of them. You haven't done anything wrong, and if anyone can correct this, it's you. They are bound to have arguments, they are 2 full males, full of testosterone, just coming into their maturity. Just keep an eye on them, I know you will. Sorry I can't help much
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:50 pm

No, Becki. You helped A LOT! Yes ... I am a worry-wart (wort, whart?) and what's funny is that I usually DO wait to see what happens or I will tell them to "work it out, boys." I guess it really just threw me for a loop. In retrospect, I think pulling the tins away was pretty smart and visually told them that sniping ends the treat time. Next time, though, I will wait and see what happens next.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Sarahloo » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:51 pm

Did Leo bite Max after he growled?
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Sarahloo » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:53 pm

cherriemater wrote:but I grabbed Leo's harness (or rough, I can't remember) and took both bowls away from him immediately and threw them away. Treat time DONE!

Sounds like a great first response to me! You sound so heartbroken on the video, you poor thing! It's not the end of the world! :)
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Sarahloo » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:59 pm

cherriemater wrote: Leo wolfed his down, but Max took his time. Leo tried to get to Max's bowl, but I held him back and said in soft, calming voice, "Noooo, that's Max's. You can lick his bowl when he's done." Which is what I allowed him to do.

That probably isn't the best idea. It just tells him that Max' bowl will be his, eventually. I would distract Leo until Max is finished.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Sarahloo » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:03 pm

I know you're upset, but it's really hilarious how Leo finds a way to run off with both cans. A very resourceful fellow!
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Sarahloo » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:05 pm

BeckiHutton wrote: Leo had claimed them both as his, and when Max came over to get one, Leo was telling him it's mine.

Becki's right. Max had abandoned his can and Leo had taken them both over. :) Max snoozed and lost! :D
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Sarahloo » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:09 pm

Leo seems like the smarter one of the two to me. He's probably going to turn out the leader of the dog pack. But it's your job to help him be a fair, gentle leader.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:56 pm

Sarahloo wrote:Did Leo bite Max after he growled?


No ... when I watched it again it looks like he bared his teeth or snapped, but no impression was made. I didn't let it go on long enough to find out what he would have done.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:58 pm

Sarahloo wrote:
cherriemater wrote: Leo wolfed his down, but Max took his time. Leo tried to get to Max's bowl, but I held him back and said in soft, calming voice, "Noooo, that's Max's. You can lick his bowl when he's done." Which is what I allowed him to do.

That probably isn't the best idea. It just tells him that Max' bowl will be his, eventually. I would distract Leo until Max is finished.


You're right about that, Sarah. I had read somewhere on the forum that another owner allowed a dog to finish what was left but I think in Leo's case he won't make the connection that it's Max'. When treats are done, plates are lifted up. Distracting Leo until then is a great idea! Because he's so high strung, he gets excited VERY easily.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:01 pm

Sarahloo wrote:Leo seems like the smarter one of the two to me. He's probably going to turn out the leader of the dog pack. But it's your job to help him be a fair, gentle leader.


>>sniff, sniff<< thank you for that, Sarah. Wow! That's going to be so tough for me. I cannot describe how different both boys are, with so many pros and cons on both sides. There is a lot of stress that I feel at times but I know all the work that we put into them know will come back in spades when they're older (and heavier). Plus, they're FOUR MONTHS OLD now (can you believe it) and I realize that there's still a lot to be done before they hit their teenage time at 6-10 mos.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Cocoa » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:23 pm

It didn't look too bad Marti. I agree with Sarah, don't let Leo lick Max's bowl when he's done and there won't be anything to fight about. When I had Buddy & Shadow there was never any food aggression unless it was something that was a coveted treat (e.g. cheese or fish) and Shadow would try to steal Buddy's if he was slow about eating his. Needless to say he learned not to be slow.

With two males you may find as they get older there is going to be a power struggle for alpha position. Are you planning to have them neutered at some point?

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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:15 pm

Cocoa wrote:It didn't look too bad Marti. I agree with Sarah, don't let Leo lick Max's bowl when he's done and there won't be anything to fight about. When I had Buddy & Shadow there was never any food aggression unless it was something that was a coveted treat (e.g. cheese or fish) and Shadow would try to steal Buddy's if he was slow about eating his. Needless to say he learned not to be slow.

With two males you may find as they get older there is going to be a power struggle for alpha position. Are you planning to have them neutered at some point?


Thank you Karen. That makes sense about a "coveted treat."

Joe and I are still talking about it but at this point we are not planning to have them neutered and I realize this may add to the power struggle issue which will, then, mean lots more training.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby TyChowgirl » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:51 pm

No; it didn't seem too bad Marti and I think you handled it quite well. I am going to stick my neck out here (and correct me of I'm wrong) but I'm not sure not having them neutered is wise. Like I know someone has said before there will be a power struggle and if training doesn't snap them out of it, it could get rocky. Neutering helps that whole testosterone overkill and some of the competitiveness. Health benefits are good too. Just my opinion; I hope it never gets bad and your hard work and training pays off.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:14 pm

TyChowgirl wrote:...it could get rocky...


That is my biggest fear, Steph and since I currently spend the most time with them it will be I who must deal with it. So ... right now it's down to how do I convince my husband. Been thinking and praying about this a lot.
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Ursa's daddy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:49 pm

I agree with Sarah. Max left the can, and Leo claimed them both. It kinda looks like Leo is the alpha.

Kitty passed out cow hooves last night and Ursa had one on her mat by the bed, however, Ursa was sleeping on Kitty's side of the bed. When I went up to bed, Malachi came up with me and promptly went over to Ursa's mat and began to chew on the hoof. Now, if he had been cool about it, nothing would have happened, but he had to drop it on the wood floor and then chew on it loudly, which let Ursa know what was happening. There was a quick growl and bark, "just what do you think you are doing?" Ursa returned to her mat and laid claim to the hoof and Malachi had to go to his mat. First thing in the morning, Ursa goes outside, and Malachi went to her mat, laid down and made all kinds of noise with the hoof since he knew Ursa was outside.

Years ago, we had two non neutered male dogs, a GSD/collie mix and an Australian shepherd. Not small or passive dogs. Things would go well except at suppertime. From time to time, Chip, the Aussie, would decide that he wanted what was in Doone's bowl. (it was all the same food) Doones would typically flip his bowl so it could not be carried off, then there would be a "discussion" about eating. The final outcome was Chip would have a bloody ear, maybe two, and then would go lay down somewhere in the yard and not eat. They probably should have been neutered.

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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby cherriemater » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:00 pm

Thank you, George! I love how comical and complicated our Chow Chows are. I also have to keep remembering that we've only had then two months so I'm still new at this. Just another thing I've got to learn about the boys. I just love the stories you tell about Ursa and Malachi and I can just see how your commentary goes along with their behavior.

Leo does that with the unstuffed skunk squeaky. We allow them up on the sofa and Leo will grab the skunk, jump up on the sofa and let it dangle a bit off the end. He knows that Max is a bit too stocky right now to get up on the sofa unaided. So, when Max gets closer he flips it up over his head so Max can't reach. Tonight Leo did this and Max just looked at me like, "Are you really gonna let him get away with that?" To which I replied, "You're either going to have to get faster or go find one of your other hundred toys to play with." He sighed heavily then went to the sliding glass door and laid down with a "Ka-Thunk!" on his elbows. No other dog breed I know has such attitude or the ability to communicate it with just a look.

Oh yeah ... I love our chow chows. Matter of fact, I love all YOUR chow chows, too, and the stories y'all tell. >>happy sigh ... I miss you Kimba and wish you were here to teach the boys all the things you knew. RIP Girl.<<
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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Rory's Dad » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:50 pm

My thoughts on this, which may or may not be late. For some reason, i miss this section of the forum most of the time.

The boys were getting a taste of something new, and that certainly had something to do with it. The reactions (from the dogs) were perfectly normal and within acceptable bounds. You also controlled it well. I know you mentioned they share a feeding area, but i would suspect they each have favorite toys. They will probably exhibit similar behavior if one tries to take a preferred toy from the the other. At their age, that is normal boundary testing.

Bye the way, the red is uncannily similar looking to my Rory.

I do have experience with having 2 males at the same time, although they were about 4 years apart in age difference. I would have to say they tolerated each other. Very protective against outside 'threats', but not really buddies. Almost like human brothers with an age difference. They were family, but not best friends.

As for fixing the boys, i will recite what my vet recommends...if you have breeding rights with the pups and intend to do it, leave them. Otherwise, the recommendation is to fix them. The behavior will neutralize and the risk of a certain cancer type is eliminated. Mind you, i didnt follow that advice with my previous Chows, but thats what they recommend (and we never ran into the health issue).

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Re: Yikes ... should I be worried?!?

Postby Cam Atis » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:16 am

Looks normal to me. Perfectly normal for dogs. Don't worry. It is bound to happen and If you'll ask me, One of them is would dominate the lesser one. Oh I have to admit though , he looked cute holding both the tins in his mouth about to snuck out but was rudely interrupted by his brother. He claimed both already so it is his.


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