I'm feeling like a failure ... potty training.

[cherriemater]

Hiya folks ... I am SO feeling like a failure in the potty training arena. There is some sort of disconnect and I hope you can help me figure it out.

Okay ... so first off they have not poo'd anywhere in the house. Yay!! Secondly, they are NOT giving me much as far as they need to go out. It's usually me who keeps watch on the clock for, "When was the last time they went out?" and then I swoosh them out the door. I read that you take the age of the puppy in months and add one = how many hours they can wait to go out. They have had NO accidents at night and we are keeping the crate door open. They use this place now as a haven of rest ... sometimes they sleep in, sometimes they sleep beside and Max now, generally, sleeps on my side of the bed on the floor.

Thanks to Sarahloo's advice, we have eliminated the garage as an option for peeing as they are not allowed to play in there unless they're just coming in from a "business" session. Thanks, Sarah, for your help there.

Here are some of my observations:

MAX: He's the big accident maker. He has pee'd when he saw our Postmaster our for his walk at Lunchtime. He has pee'd at the Holiday Toys that sit on the EdenPure in the living room. They are generally not allowed in there and we have it blocked off. But, of course, the minute I'm not looking and relax, he goes and does it. He doesn't make a noise when he needs to go out. No wimper, no leg nosing, nothing. ((Maybe I need to start keeping an accident log??))

LEO: He DOES wimper a bit or he'll come into the room where I am and stare at me. I hear the rustle of feet that stops suddenly without the sound of elbows hitting the floor like he's laying down, so I look at him and he mentally tells me it's time. He's the least of my worries because he makes very few mistakes.

They seem to also err when Joe and I are intimate. This one's a big puzzle for me but Joe seems to think that's probably natural.

I've read that it should only take a few days, but honestly I'm so frustrated! We praise HIGHLY when they go outside. I say, "Good boy, pee pee," or "poo poo" after they eliminate. I praise when they DO tell me somehow that they have to go. I treat when they come inside, perhaps I should treat when they go?

ANY suggestions here would be welcomed. Am I expecting too much out of 3 month olds? They've only been with us a month so maybe my expectations are too high. Thank GOD and our landlord for wood floors. We clean up right away so there is no residual smell left.

[Cocoa]

Don't be so hard on yourself, at 3 months their bladders are not fully developed and they don't have the control they will as adult dogs. It is not uncommon in puppies to have accidents when they are excited and that sounds like what is happening with Max. Chows are generally easier to train than most other breeds because they are very clean dogs but your guys are still just puppies. As long as they are going consistently when you take them outside, and it sounds like you have them pretty well trained to poop outside, you will find that the accidents will get fewer and eventually stop as their bladders develop. Hope that helps.
Karen

[cherriemater]

Thank you, Karen!! Oh, it does help indeed. I know I'm too hard on myself. I've read about other successes and I remember how Kimba used to Haruuuuuuuuuumph at me or nudge my leg when she needed to go out ... so I just need to readjust my expectations. Joe's got a Christmas holiday coming up 12/22 to 01/02 so he can help me a bit more, too. Thanks again, Karen.

[BeckiHutton]

Lily still doesn't tell me when she needs to go out ,and she is over a year old... I just have to guess... so, no, you don't need to worry. X

[Sarahloo]

He has pee'd at the Holiday Toys that sit on the EdenPure in the living room.

Mmmh, I wonder if he was marking them as his? Which is not at all the same thing as having an accident.

Where do you want them to pee?

Do you always leave the house through the same door with them? This way, ideally, they would go to that door to alert you they have business to attend to outside.

Have you looked at the literature? Do you take them outside right after they wake up and right after every meal ?

[cherriemater]

Thanks Becki. Gosh I hope I can get them to tell me before they're a year old. Yikes!

I told our vet about the Toys issue and she said they're not old enough to be marking their territory. I'm not really sure about that, though, especially since every now and then they mount each other (they are immediately told "off") so I know that their testosterone (?) is there and marking is a part of that, too. If he WAS marking, he was marking his territory by the lazyboy (where he pee'd and nearby where he will rest when I'm in the living room). I'll have to noodle on this one a bit more.

Yes, and No. When it has been really REALLY cold, I let them out the back sliding door so THEY can go out but I don't have to. We have a sort of gate that is protecting the wood right now because they like to chew the molding (previous dog chewed there so I'm sure they think it's okay despite my many "No's" and spraying bitter yuck on it, thus the gates). Anyway, I watch for them because they will sit there and look out. If it's about that time, then I take them out that door. This is, by far, the most popular door for them to sit by. However, Max has started sitting in the laundry room (which is where their food is and the door to the garage). We usually go out this door when I know its a poo time because they only seem to want to poo in the vacant lot next door.

Do you think the two doors may be confusing them?? That could very well be. I will have to suggest to Joe that we only go out the laundry room door from now on. Then when they're sitting there, we'll know what they want.

They go out around 7:00am or 8 depending on what time they begin to stir (wake up) then about every four to five hours afterward. We don't usually go out directly after they eat because nothing will happen if we do so. The natural pattern has been that as soon as they wake up (nighty-night or nap time) they go out. Now, Max seems to always be munching, which would make him drink after, and as I type this I'm thinking that may be the issue. We had planned to free feed like they did at the breeder but then I began putting food in their dishes every four hours or so because Max will eat all of Leo's if I just leave it down, or he'll just keep going back to the feeder (I'm only using the feeder's dish but not filling the feeder). This way I can sorta monitor how much they're eating and be sure Leo's getting something. So ... this may be a clue. I once read that it's a half hour to an hour after food has been eaten that enough waste has been passed along for proper elimination. I'll have to pay closer attention to the time they're eating, then. Thanks again, Sarah, for alerting me to this point.

[Sarahloo]

Thanks Becki. Gosh I hope I can get them to tell me before they're a year old.

I'm sure you will! Remember, Lily has been moving around a lot! Your boys know without a doubt where home is!

[TyChowgirl]

Marti, as someone said, please don't be so hard on yourself. The bladders are definitely a factor, and if it makes you feel better I was feeling your frustration because I had heard chows pretty well potty train themselves and it took Ty some time to get it. Perhaps one door to go in and out to potty is a good idea right now, that way, your boy that is showing signs to you can walk to you or to the door when needing out. Another thing is, (since you're so crafty ) why not make a rope with a bell on it and attach it to that potty door? (they sell them at the stores but charge about 20 bucks...yea, so much cheaper to make) and make sure they hear it when you go in and out. It maybe help the one trying to communicate with you, communicate with you easier by nudging the bell. Ty used to scratch or jump the door/wall in the small concave part by the door. He still does. Mostly he nudges me now and starts to get antsy, but occassionally he will still do leaps(he brings Brian his shoe(s) because Bri will ignore him while I'm gone most of the time though not intentionally and so Ty had to train him). When they realize that them going to the door gets you to come to the door and take them out, they'll do it more frequently so keep an eye out for that. Puppy walks to door or is very close to door, take puppy out, even if it's not scheduled pee time. Add a treat in there some where if you can. It may help. Good luck and keep persistant. Leo's going to be the go between for you and Max. Once he gets something down, Max will model him.

[cherriemater]

Thanks Stephanie. I LOVE the bell idea. I have some jingles I can rig up. And, we have eliminated the other door. Just the one through the garage. When they get antsy, I ask them "Whatcha want?" and "Show me whatcha want." then head into the kitchen. If they want to go out, they continue to the door and off we go. Sometimes they just flop down and then I know we're okay, but I keep an eye/ear out in case I read it wrong. It's a learning game. Ursa's Daddy mentioned that they are training us, and it's so true. Thanks again. I think I'll try that as another option. I had been trying to get them to paw my knee, but that has not caught on yet. Maybe a bell at their level is more Pavlovian.

[chowpups]

Marti when we got our first chow Oneill she was 12wks from the Shelter so we had no idea if she just went in the kennel space or not and she trained us for sure..When she woke up she would make as much noise as she could in her crate and we knew one of us better get down stairs and let her out. We were trained to hear her stirring around, the when she drank her water we were trained to take her out etc..we are all trained in the being when their little bladders aren't very strong. I use to yell at my Hubby that Oneill would never have control cause he kept taking her out..every time she moved just about he would whisk her out...I really think she trained us (hubby)for sure..Don't worry they will get it ..It's a little harder in the winter I think to train cause it's so cold and no one wants to go out..We definitely took both dogs out the same door for potty calls. The front door meant walks..

[cherriemater]

Thanks, Nancy. I appreciate that. It is a bit harder with hubby around (he's off now until Jan 2nd) because I have let my guard down and he doesn't know yet that fussiness means they gotta go (even if it's only been an hour). The last two Maxidents, I think, have taught him to pay closer attention.

We finally got enough snow so that Joe could carve out their back play area, but not enough to let them off the lead. He wanted to let them out he sliding door and I reminded him that we're just using the garage door for now so that we can send one message ... this door means out.

All the great words of encouragement have helped me to relax a bit and appreciate wood floors!!! At least I don't have wet carpet to worry about and I don't care how many times I have to wash/bleach their "oops" towels. ((Clean up on one side, floor cleaner on the other ... works GREAT!))

[cherriemater]

BREAKTHROUGH!!!!! So, being so sick Joe has taken some of the slack in the potty training arena. We both agreed that they would only go in and out through the door which leads through the utility room to the garage, then out. But wouldn't you know it just when I thought they'd never say anything ... they both just started telling us when they need to go out!!! Leo was first, of course ... Mr. High-strung, active boy. He lets out this little whine, which is different than his squeak he makes when he yawns. It's purposeful, like, Hey, you! I'm talking to you. Still on the quiet side and with my ears all plugged up it's hard to hear, but Joe has heard it and responds so it's now a habit.

Max took a bit longer, but, thankfully, he lets our a little Yip! Chuff! Rarf! when he's serious about going out. He still does the purposeful walk to the room in which we are and stares at you, but if you're not watching this is now his habit.

Sooooo thankful that our boys are talking to us!!!

So, today I did an experiment. I watched Leo drink about a gallon of water (yeah ... overexaggeration) but I went into the living room and sat down to watch TV. The boys, of course, came in and sat down with me. Leo kept getting up and pacing, but I said nothing. I just watched and observed. About an hour later he puts his face in my face (I'm lying on the sofa by now) and yips! Good Boy! I say right away and out we go.

Thanks to everyone and your advice and support. I think the boys have it now and I think they've trained us well. No accidents in about a week. Woo hoo!!!