Schutzhund and Chows

Training and behavior topics, guidelines, and tips for Chow Chows.

Moderator: chowadmin

Post Reply
diveorbust
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:54 pm

Schutzhund and Chows

Post by diveorbust »

Hi All--

I've been a lurker of these forums for a few months now. My question primarily pertains to training chows with Schutzhund techniques. For some brief background, my previous pet, Tex (German Shepherd), passed about a year ago at the ripe old age of 14. Anyway, while I had him, I competed with him in Schutzhund competitions, etc. Well, I'm back on the market for a new puppy and chows are a breed that I've always loved.

To be clear, I don't intend to compete with the chow in these competitions or do the guard training aspect of the program, my next dog will be strictly leisure companion. My question is directly related to the Schutzhund methodologies in training. With the different personality type of the chow, I'm just doing my homework on whether or not this would work. I asked my club members, etc., but really, no one in Schutzhund trains chows it's almost exclusively German Shepherd with very few exceptions, so I exhausted that resource fairly quickly. :)

So, if anyone has some input or knows of a resource I could tap, that information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

Here is some good reference info for Schutzhund trainers/methods:

http://www.gsdca-wda.org/wda_new/index/index.html
User avatar
Merlin
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:38 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Schutzhund and Chows

Post by Merlin »

My question primarily pertains to training chows with Schutzhund techniques.
I have successfully shown many GSD to Schutzhund level 3 and I can handsdown tell you NO.
This is not an exercise for a chow. They do not have the right mindset to do this.

This exercise requires a breed that is highly domesticated and highly bred to work with man, and a chow isn't neither.

There is a reason why this sport is dominated by German and Belgian Shepherds. Chows do not make the cut here, - BUT - so don't many other breeds as well. not just chows.

We do use some of their obedience related training techniques for the overtly aggressive chows that we get here, but if your chow isn't spoiled by poor training and isn't enabled, there is no reason to tell you the truth.
The basic obedience portion is highly acceptable, ( again, for previously enabled chows), but the aggitation sements are very poorly applied to chows. Please seriously consider not attempting to do this.

Any prelimin or full obedience curriculum that is NOT treat related is very fine for training chows. For the serious trainer, marking works very well, and brings about quality results. - you need to know that with this breed you will never bring about the same intensity of results that you would with other breeds so there is no point in frustrating yourself or the dog. The chow chow response mechanism is a delayed on at best and not as intense and not as consistent either, but that's to be understood if you understand the breed. Training a chow would be very similar to training a cat... not a dog to tell you the truth.

Chows are considered Non Sporting and to a great degree this should be respected ( as with any other breed).
NEVER Support Back Yard Breeders & Puppy Mills
Contact Your local Chow Chow Association to find your Breeder of Merit!
Better Yet ! Adopt!
diveorbust
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:54 pm

Re: Schutzhund and Chows

Post by diveorbust »

Thanks for the reply...and scolding I guess? lol

I really don't have the intentions of running a-frames with the new dog, since I'm out of that game these days, but I do know some groups here in the states do have agility/rally competitions for chows or include them. I'm pretty aware they're not going to respond to the same degree...14 years of seeing dog after dog at these competitions of even a single breed will teach you that much. haha I love them, but you do get a really unintelligent shepherd from time-to-time. The key to this is whole post is I'm simply wondering what degree of the training skill and experience I have is transferable to chows.

From what I've been reading, comparative level II sans athleticism would really be about the best you would do with a chow (which is fine by me).

The methodologies I'm referring to, which a couple you touched on, are the intro techniques for basic to intermediate training: treat v. toy, marking/clicker, luring, etc.
Previously, I used treats up to 8 - 8.5 months and then transitioned to a squeaky armadillo in training, which that transition during that age worked well. :) Would you still say no treats for earlier stages even in chows? I've noticed there is some debate on the treat v. no treat in training them.

I'm a big fan of clicker training, so would certainly attempt to go down that route to whatever degree I could achieve.


I do have a couple of question just for clarification in your post.

1) When you refer to enabled in the first sections, you are referring one that is enabled to behave poorly? I got a bit lost as to what you were referring to.

2) With regard to obedience training, in your opinion, to which step would you take a chow? For example, only focus but not grip...as I think the latter would be a bad idea potentially.

Thanks again for the info!
User avatar
Merlin
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:38 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Schutzhund and Chows

Post by Merlin »

Thanks for the reply...and scolding I guess? lol
np. no no no noooooooooooo - I think faster than I can type, so I often leave out the nicesties. Sorry! :)
s here in the states do have agility/rally competitions for chows or include them.
Yes, of course and chows are holding their own, but agility/ rally/ is not at all the same as schutzhund. there are no where near the same

Shutzhund is ruled by "herders" with little or no prey drive. All I'm trying to tell you is that a chow is not a 'herder", but a natural guard dog with often an amazingly predominate prey drive. To take any dog with a pre definied disposition towards dominence, is difficult to manage in the "s" exercises, and usually it's been my understanding that this is often why rotties and dobermans have not scored as well in Schutzhund as the shepherds have.

Like most dogs there are extreme nuaces with some chows, some being ridculously sloth-like and not at all athletic, some being very atlethic but with slow or non existent response times, some with excellent response times but a misunderstanding of deliverance. I think until you've worked with one you won't be able to appreciate all this. and do expect to be very frustrated at times.
Previously, I used treats up to 8 - 8.5 months and then transitioned to a squeaky armadillo in training, which that transition during that age worked well.
I've found the problem with many chows who are likely candidates for serious training are very poorly food motivated. and in order to achieve food motivation you have to keep the dog quite hungry and that makes for generally an uncooperative, grumpy chow, that when presented with an aggressive scenario, might just become more aggressive. Yes, to clickers and marking though.
1) When you refer to enabled in the first sections, you are referring one that is enabled to behave poorly? I got a bit lost as to what you were referring to.
oh sorry! I work uniquely with highly enabled, aggressive chows and sharpei. So yes, I was referring in a sense to previously enabled chows.
2) With regard to obedience training, in your opinion, to which step would you take a chow? For example, only focus but not grip...as I think the latter would be a bad idea potentially.
This is where I think you might become frustrated. Training a chow, in many ways, is equivalent to training a cat or a tiger even. Just to give you an idea. ( think of that one long and hard). To me, it will be difficult for you to achieve the precision, the timing, and the focus, that we all look for in a solid shutz dog, on a consistent basis, with any amount of quality tractability. ( again, non-prey drive vs high prey drive). If you can achieve this in Shuzthund consistently, tell me where to sign up, I'll be your first student :)

Please promise to keep me posted. I want to follow your journey!
NEVER Support Back Yard Breeders & Puppy Mills
Contact Your local Chow Chow Association to find your Breeder of Merit!
Better Yet ! Adopt!
User avatar
Brisco
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:38 pm
Location: Western Australia

Re: Schutzhund and Chows

Post by Brisco »

Just so that you are aware and don't give up all hope. I do know of at least one Chow that has completed all three levels of schutzhund. They are certainly can be more difficult to train than many breeds but can be trained. I'm not interested in teaching mine anything much more than the basics, but Brisco learned to sit and lay down in about an hour when he was only 9 weeks old and has never forgotten it. I've had German shepherds and Rotties which are both much more willing to do what it takes to " please" their owners. Chows don't think that they are owned by anyone. They tend to act like they know you are going to love them just as much if they do a trick, or not, so why bother. But if you really want to, it shouldn't matter if it's easy or even if it's possible, just have a go at it. What could be the worst outcome? you get to spend a lot of time with your dog.
No matter where you go, there you are.
User avatar
Merlin
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:38 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Schutzhund and Chows

Post by Merlin »

What could be the worst outcome? you get to spend a lot of time with your dog
Touché :)
NEVER Support Back Yard Breeders & Puppy Mills
Contact Your local Chow Chow Association to find your Breeder of Merit!
Better Yet ! Adopt!
Post Reply