HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!!!!!!!!!

Training and behavior topics, guidelines, and tips for Chow Chows.

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Wollfie
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HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Wollfie »

HELLLLLLLLLP. The puppy from hell has appeared. Her name is Zoe (but should be She-Devil or Devil-Dog). She arrived two weeks ago from Texas, and has been causing havoc ever since. Zoe is a 12-week-old female cream chow that has more or less taken over the house. She terrorizes the cat (that I live with though), terrorizes Wolfie, my 8 ½ yr. old male chow – likes to lock her jaws around any part of his body that is available, usually his leg or tail. As far as I know he has not bitten her yet, although he comes close several times a day. If he is eating, she will growl and push him out of the way – and he lets her. Amazing!!!! He is incredibly nice to her considering everything.

She has peed in virtually every room in the house; has ripped a hole big enough for her to enter the house in a fairly new and very expensive Andersen screen door; has figured out now how to actually open the screen door without going through the hole; has figured out how to pull back the large sheet of wood separating the family room/kitchen from the rest of the house.

She tries to bury things in the houseplants; will try to eat anything she finds on the floor or coffee tables; and barks at virtually everything.

I could go on and on and on, but I am sure that you get the picture.

HELLLLLLLLLLLP!. What should I do????????? Just wait it out till she gets older, or what??????
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Post by Jess04920 »

Sounds to me like she needs some more supervision...I don't think you just stand there and watch her do these things, so it must be that she's unsupervised and probably bored. Keep her engaged in activities, WATCH HER and crate her when you're not home. I'm sure with some patience, training and positive renforcement, she'll become a wonderful chow girl. Good luck.
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Post by Auddymay »

It sounds like she has way too much independence. You need to monitor her closer, and intervene on Wolfie's behalf, before he does end up and bite her. Lily is a year old today, and I still will tell her to leave Pippy alone. What I do, is step in front of Lily and tell her 'BACK OFF' in a stern, but not loud voice. If she tries to go around me, I stay with her, and advance on her, forcing her to back up, repeating BACK OFF. I started doing this late in the game, but it works. At times, I don't need to get in front of her first, but usually if I am doing this command, she is concentrating on bothering Pip, and it is necessary to get off my butt. Also, I would invest in a crate, and use it. It will cut down on home damage. I would also get her a Nylabone, and teach her how to play with it by incorporating it when she wants to play bite. Good luck, and keep your cool, she will get better with time.
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Post by kiwani »

IIRC, you didn't want this pup or any pup, and felt she was foisted on you as part of a business deal with your husband. Her actions sound like typical unsupervised pup behavior. If you still resent her enough not to 'mother' her, (watch over her, teach her), if you still feel *forced* to care for her as part of a deal, then find her a new home now where she'll be cared for, instead of labeling her as a 'pup from hell'.

With a label like that, you just reduce her chances of finding a real home.
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Post by Auddymay »

If you had read correctly, the first word (the topic) was HELP, not CRITICIZE
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Post by kiwani »

Re: "If you had read correctly,..."
---

I read correctly, and *my* advice was to HELP find the pup a home.

The poster made it very clear when she arrived here that she did not want *any* pup. There is a long thread in Feb where many here responded in the same manner. This pup was just a bargaining chip and a pawn in the marriage, a resentment, and not someone she looked forward to welcoming. People who *really* don't want a pup, should find another home for it.


Excerpts:

"I DO NOT WANT ANOTHER CHOW!!!!. I want my freedom from all the grooming involved in just one dog, not to mention two, and the walking of two dogs. Someone help me convince hubby that two Chows are twice the work..."


"Well, well, well. . . I do believe that my hubby has won. I overheard him last night talking to my eldest daughter that he was/had placed an order for "his" little 6 week old cream chow.

You have to understand that he caught me in a weak moment. Two months ago, he agreed to finance my facelift in exchange for letting him purchase "his" cream baby. I not only agreed, I actually remember saying that I would be primarily responsible for him/her."
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Zhuyos mom
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Post by Zhuyos mom »

I somewhat agree with Kiwani's point and AuddyMay's so let's compromise... Wolfie's mom, Zoe (who you lovingly coined "She-Devil") is a baby and will appear to be the puppy from hell and play rough with Wolfie because she is a baby - a chowling. Wolfie will tell her when enough is enough between the two. Don't worry about that... it will happen. Adult chows have the most amazing patience with chowlings and puppies. Amazing patience. However, you do need to set boundaries in your home so she is not so destructive with your property. I forget if Wolfie was and adult rescue or if you raised him as a chowling. My first advise for you is if you haven't yet, have a crate set up (or a box, I used a regular box when Zhu was a chowling), as a place of refuge for Zoe to go to. A place of her own - nice and fluffy with lots of toys and chew toys - for time outs. Second, take her out for walks. She has boundless energy right now. So taking her on walks would help some of the pent-up energy that is going into the destructiveness. Third, she's not house trained yet, at least it doesn't sound like it, so set up wee-wee pads or newspapers at areas in your home that she's able to spend a penny if you don't have a backyard readily available or are ready for a walk for her to spend her penny. Finally, honestly figure out if you really want Zoe in your lives, because it is a forever type of deal you made AND it is a family process. So when hubby comes home, he'll have to take her for walks and both of you will have to do a bit of training with her. If Wolfie is very good mannered, he'll have a great hand in training her too and both you and your husband may luck out. Chows love having a companion.

Don't worry. Things will ease up once Zoe learns to be a good citizen and you are comfortable with your new role as mommy to a chowling! She's probably BEAUTIFUL too! Have you seen Leonora's photos? She's exquisite and real sweet and fluffy and a true love. If you are a classic suburban, East Bay sosch, you'll have to get a cream colored Lexis or Jag for Zoe! I'm just a simple Peninsula gal and got Zhu a white toyota when he turned 5!
Last edited by Zhuyos mom on Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Judy Fox »

With respect - I cannot believe that a three month old chow baby girl can be "A she-pup from hell". :shock:
What on earth has gone wrong to allow this to happen :?:

I may be naive or maybe just plain thick, but for a chowling to be able to get to the state she is reported to be in, is not normal. :?

Now, "not normal" in the human handler sense of the word or "not normal" in the chowchow baby sense of the words, I cannot begin to guess. :shock:

Either the human is in the wrong or the chow chow baby is poorly or mentally subnormal.

So therefore, my suggestion is, given that the human is the older and the one in charge, in the first instance, the humans in the household do a self-examination on their behaviour.

Having done that and come to one of two conclusions:-

i.e. They have handled the situation correctly and treated the baby chow chow as a baby chow chow should be treated, disciplined, loved, etc. etc.

or

The have not. :?

If they have, I suggest they get the baby chow chow to a vet a.s.a.p. to check if there is anything seriously wrong physically and if there is something amiss, get it fixed! :roll:

If they have not treated the baby chow chow as a baby chow chow should be treated

then

put in a strict regime of discipline, love, supervision etc. etc. :o

or

find the baby chow chow a new home a.s.a.p. before it is too late for the poor little love to learn how to be a good chow chow girl.

This is not a criticism - just, in my opinion a long-distance assessment of the situation because, in my experience, what has been described is not normal.
Last edited by Judy Fox on Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Auddymay »

Yes, I remember every bit of it. I also remember some of the not so kind replies she got when she mentioned she didn't want another dog. Now, from where I sit, which is partner in an 18 year marriage (so far), that pup was coming into the house, regardless of any deal making that went on. Marriage is a fragile dance at times, and I would never presume to understand Wolfie's home dynamics from a couple off hand comments. She may think this puppy is sweet, but let's face it, when they start destroying, they are devil dogs in our eyes, even if it is only a passing thought. She sounds frustrated, and asked for help. Not rehoming instructions. Pippy was unwanted by me, and I had an opportunity to rehome her, but didn't...there were more people than me involved, and bottom line, she was Haley's dog. I am so glad I kept her. Now, if you ask my husband, he will tell you Lily is worthless. He respects that I chose to get her, and would never suggest I get rid of her, part of that fragile dance marrieds do.

Wolfie, don't take bitter comments to heart. Let little Zoe grow on you a bit, and start by taking her out and socializing her around others. She is at a critical time in her development and since she was a little older when you got her, she needs to get started now. Tell hubby he needs to help, too, since it was his idea to get her to begin with...play amnesiac about that agreeing to do the dirty work.
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

Have to agree with Kiwani on this one I remember reading those post, I think the first one I told her to take the kids and move out and let her husband get the Chow, The second post I didn't respond to because I thought what kind of stupid agreement is that a face lift for a Puppy, I knew there was going to be trouble. You can tell no one is supervising or watching the puppy but I bet there's alot of time watching the mirror.

I never agree with training but if what is said is true that Chow has gone wild , how does that puppy have that much time of not being watched to tear threw screen doors and remove fencing plus pee in every room in the house. That puppy is on a free for all and out of control no one is watching it. How much time does it take to potty train a Chow, about 20 miniutes?
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Post by Judy Fox »

You put my post in a nutshell Jeff!
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Post by Zhuyos mom »

Is it a full moon or something? Lighten up, everyone! I just read some of Wollfie's mom's old posts and she raised Wollfie as a chowling quite fine. She just needs a little readjustment back into mommy-chowdom. Stop this judgement... I think there's something in the bible about judging people. Wollfie's mom, if you truly need some hands-on help, PM me. We don't live to far from each other. Geez-Louise, Everyone! Remember, two years ago when I brought PB home and she and Zhu got into it injuring Zhu I thought she was the devil incarnate?! Now she my pretty little Pooh Bear who I have to start setting up for her birthday/2 years living with us celebration that Zhu is planning to surprise her with!

As I say to my two sometimes... "easssssseeey"! [:D]
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Post by Victory »

Many female chows are far more active than the males, therefore they need more training, more attention and more supervision. And they might need it for a very long time. First get a crate for her, make it comfortable but use it for time outs and for when you aren't home to supervise. She needs to learn the rules and it doesn't sound like she has so far. At 12 weeks she should be somewhat house trained but she obviously isn't. So start with the basics, she's acting like a much younger puppy mentally, so begin from there. As far as chewing on the older chow, she probably can't hurt him yet, she's treating him much like she would her mother and sibs, he's a chew toy, he'll stop her when it becomes too much, just make sure he doesn' go too far. In other words when they are together and she's being annoying, if he begins to become upset and she doesn't back off, then you make her back off, that will establish you has leader and keep him from maybe losing his temper with her.
Firesong will snarl and nip at Darkwind when she's over excited, (she's 4 by the way) and I snap at her, "Hey, back off" and she stops. He doesn't have to do anything which is good, he's twice her size and could seriously hurt her if he ever really got mad.
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Post by Wollfie »

OMG, I feel more beaten up right now than I did after my recent surgery. If this is any conciliation to you Jeff, the time that I spend “watching the mirror”, is minimal, as I do not like what I see -- at least not yet.

Yes, it is true that I did not want another dog, however, I was overruled 3 to 1. She is now here (has been for two weeks now), and it is extremely hard to watch her constantly.

The screen door incident occurred one morning last week when my daughter put her outside before leaving for Santa Cruz. I came down stairs ten minutes after she left to find Zoe in the house – and a hole in the screen. My husband put her out this morning before he left for work. He put her airline crate outside in front of the door, to prevent her from even coming close to the screen. I again came downstairs (this time 30 minutes later) to find her in the house again -- only this time she had somehow figured out how to actually slide the screen door open just enough for her to enter.

Yes, I plead guilty to both counts of not supervising her properly. The large piece of paneling that I placed in back of the refrigerator which extended a few feet in front of the stairs, to block her from roaming the house, worked great for about a week. I could step over it, go upstairs for a few minutes and come back down to find her just sitting there. Well, all that changed when she heard my daughter come in the front door. I actually saw her pull back the bottom of the paneling and squeeze through. Again, shame on me for not anticipating this.

It’s now been almost a week since she has not gone pee in the house. However, according to what my husband has read, it will be another three weeks of not peeing for her to be considered “housebroken”.

She went to the vets last Friday, and had all the shots that she was supposed to have. Will have to wait another two weeks for the final Parvo shot, so she really should not be out walking around until then. I realize that I am a terrible dog mother, but I have actually “let” my husband and daughter take both dogs out for a walk a few times.

Bottom line: She is here to stay, and I am trying to keep up with a very fast little puppy. I knew that it was going to be difficult in the beginning, but I apparently had forgotten how much supervision they do need.
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Post by Zhuyos mom »

Don't worry, Wollfie's mom... I got your back! :wink:
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Post by Auddymay »

I would love to see some photos of Wolfie and Zoe if you could post some. There is nothing like a new puppy to get photo ops!
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Post by fillyok »

Wow, this is a tough crowd. I guess I'm glad I didn't complain when Ping thought the Berber carpet in the apartment looked better in long strands.

She was about 7 months old when I brought her home so Bear would have a little buddy. I never had any issues with Bear, so I made the mistake and assumed the same for Ping. Wrong! She's extremely active and is definately the alpha compared to Bear (he's about 4). She chews on him and is constantly seeking attention, but I can tell she's starting to settle down. I'm at work from about 6AM until who knows when...usually about 530ish, so they're unsupervised for quite a while. I just moved into a house and purchased new leather furniture (no more vacuuming the couch for me!) and so far things are great. Knock wood, of course. I do make sure they have toys and chewies to keep them occupied for a while. I also leave the tv or stereo on.
I'd really have to agree with Victory regarding the females needing more attention and being a bit more work. But on the other hand, I've found that Ping is smarter (or less stubborn) than Bear. If Bear gets wrapped around a tree or post, he'll pull exactly in the opposite direction, but Ping will listen to me and unwrap herself most of the time. She'll also drop anything if I tell her to...Bear will chomp down even harder and take off. Ping also needed to spend her pennies a lot more often. The first couple days she had an accident or two, but once she got used to the idea that I would take her out a little more often than Bear, she never had another accident. I guess her little bladder is growing a bit too.
Wolfie, I guess I can sympathize a little bit with you because there was a time when I wondered if having two Chows in an apartment really was such a good idea, especially the puppy. Now, I can't imagine life without both of them. Sure, I'll be paying for the re-carpeting at the end of the month. It was my fault anyway since I wasn't able to provide the supervision she needed at the time. It's a small price to pay when I see how good they are together and how happy they make me. Don't give up just yet, things will get better before you know it. :D
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Post by IliamnasQuest »

Wolfie, sorry to hear that you're having a tough time with the new pup. It sounds like your husband wanted the pup and yet the raising of it is falling on your shoulders.

One of the big things that will help you out is maintenance. By this I mean controlling the surroundings so that the pup doesn't have access to things to destroy them. This may also mean training your husband and daughter. A young puppy shouldn't be put out unsupervised, so if they're not willing to stand there while she pees and then put her back into a safe area, then they shouldn't put her out.

The crate is your friend in all of this. Use it when you can't watch the pup. In all honesty, a puppy that age should NEVER be unsupervised. That's not easy to do! So if you are going to wash the dishes or take a shower, the pup must be confined to a safe area. This puppy has chewed on a few things so far that are irritating to you but not life-threatening. But she could easily chew an electrical cord or get into something toxic when she's left unsupervised. You really need to keep her confined when you can't watch her.

Something that may work out wonderfully for you is to get an exercise pen. This is a pen that is made of metal wire panels (stiff wire) - generally they have eight panels, each panel 2' wide. It comes in various heights - I mostly have 4' pens. The panels are attached to each other and it can be folded up to lay against the wall (or slide under a bed or couch) and brought out when needed. I keep one set up in my kitchen/dining area on the linoleum, and if I need it I can put dogs in it to keep them safe. I have dog beds in mine, but in yours you may just want to put a blanket and maybe a dish of water (I use a small bucket that attaches with a snap to the wires of one panel). This way she has some room to move around but is still confined in a safe manner. And when you don't want the pen set up, you just fold it up and it's out of the way.

Anytime your puppy does something destructive, you should also keep in mind that it's not the puppy's fault. She is simply doing what puppies do. Things like that are the owner's fault for allowing the puppy access to the item. I found that my last puppy (now 18 months old) had a real need to rip and shred things .. *L* .. so I provided her with "safe" items like paper plates, paper cups, toilet paper rolls, plastic margarine tubs, etc. And I let her make a mess with them. She wasn't interested in normal toys. So to keep my important things safe, I gave her lots of things that she was allowed to chew up. We came through her puppy time with very little damage. Granted, there was often pieces of cardboard all over the floor but that was a welcome exchange over the other destructive things she could have been doing.

Good luck with the pup, and I hope that the responses of some on the list haven't driven you away.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Post by ngraham »

Well, as a new mom to a 12 week old (tomorrow) female chowling, I agree with Victory also. Little Miss Molly is definitly more of a handful than I ever expected, and she WAS loved and wanted from the very beginning. I still stand by my original post to Wolfie's mom from last February, but that is not the case scenario now. All I can say is, what I have learned here, in just the past couple of days... they get by with what we allow them to get by with. I have seen a major change in Miss Molly's attitude just since I posted with my questions/problems on Sunday. Making sure everything is positive for Molly, BUT not giving her, her way all the time, is starting to ease some of my frustration with this adorable little girl. She also seems happier and less stressed than she was. I am calling the shots and not her. At this age, they do have to be attended to. They do not come house broken... even at 12 weeks, Molly still pees in the house occassionally. She doesn't make a habit of it, but I also accept the fact that accidents come with a puppy, and also what they make carpet cleaners for. Wolfie's mom, I do honestly hate to see you saddled down with a puppy that you absolutely did not want... it is not going to be a very good relationship for the 2 of you. If you are going to make this work, then you will have to stop looking at Zoe as the she devil. You made the deal with the face lift, Zoe didn't. Get a crate, crate train her and if you will look at her through eyes of a new mom instead of Zoe another burden, maybe the both of you can begin to build some kind of relationship that will be a win-win for both sides.
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Post by sweetpea »

Gracie's thing was the dinningroom chairs and one wall. Princess would be napping, she'd be bored I guess and I hear the chewing. Brand new chairs to. Potty training her was so easy, I just left the door open and she followed Princess in and out, so really Princess pottytrained her. It didnt take me long to remember not to leave Gracie out of sight at that age. Your pup does sound bored.
Now if you ever want to meet a real devil dog, you should meet Kokomo, one of my daughters dog! :)
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Post by kingalls »

My response to your original post about not wanting another Chow wasn't the most sympathic but you have Zoe now. As I suspected, the brunt of the responsibility has fallen on your shoulders. In all fairness to Zoe, you and your family need to all take responsibility in guiding Zoe. Many have given you good advice. I hope you can make the adjustments to help Zoe without jeopardizing any family issues.

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Post by Jeff&Peks »

There is a radio Show in S. Ca that is also in SF Called Frosty, Heidi and Frank they say such mean and outrages things to people that at the end of the show they have to apologize to everyone they have offended, Some may see my attraction to the Show. My wife says I should make a list and apologize to all the people I have offended at the end of the year but the list would be so long it would take a year to accomplish it. Anyway I am apologizing for the mirror remark, it didn't sound as bad when I first typed it but after re reading it, pretty bad, So I apologize for that remark. I think that makes two apologies in a year, I must be getting old.
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Post by Brisco »

I've been lying low lately and, Boy! am I glad. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that gets caught up in these heated post.

Good luck with the new pup.
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Post by Auddymay »

Hey Matthew! I have been thinking about you! I worry when the regulars disappear for awhile.
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Post by ngraham »

Like Lou, I wasn't real sympathetic to the original post last February, but at least Wolfie's Mom was honest about it from the beginning and made it quite clear that she did not want a chowling, which is why she came to us for help originally. She needed help convincing her husband that they didn't need another chow. My point now is, Zoe is a puppy, and as cute as chowlings are, they can at times be frustrating and a royal pain in the azz. But that's any puppy. Unfortunatly, they just aren't born well behaved dogs. They potty in the house, they chew on things, they are insistent on having their own way, they require attention. Most everyone here knows how bad I had wanted a cream, female chowling. Believe me, there is no chow anymore loved than Molly. She was wanted, even before she was born. Does that mean I don't get frustrated? You bet I have gotten frustrated. Everytime I have to walk to the neighbors yard and pick her up because of her "selective hearing" I get frustrated. Not at Molly tho, but at myself because I know there has to be something I can be doing different to get different behavior from Molly. But Molly is what I wanted, and now it is up to me to make sure she turns out to be a good dog and tha we both have a good relationship. Wolfie's Mom, Zoe is here now. She didn't barter for her existence there... her humans did. Now it's up to her humans to help her grow and nuture her. And if we as a chow board can help, then we should.
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