Training Disappointment

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chowfrnd88
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Training Disappointment

Post by chowfrnd88 »

Well, Jeff has said in a few posts that if he gets a bad vibe from someone like a vet in relation to chows, he takes them elsewhere and I see first hand now why.

Last night was our third training class with Special and don't get me wrong, the trainer knows her stuff and has lots of valuable answers to questions and obviously Special is learning a lot. BUT, that having been said, I've seen signs all along that things are not perfect with how she views him. First off, she said she specializes in "bully breeds." I have nothing but contempt for that terminology. This is exactly why the problem persists, people call our breed as well as others, bullies. Second, a few times now I've caught her (probably unconsciously) making eye contact with me as she says "aggressive, dominance issues, bully, unsocialized."

She herself owns one of these bully breeds and so I thought she'd be more understanding. Well, last week, she went on and on about how Special is so friendly and not shy at all and not (the dreaded word)... aggressive. Well, last night Special decides that he wants to play with her dog and he starts barking and wagging his tail. The trainer then announces in front of everyone how Special is being territorial and he feels like this "corner" of the room is his. First off, it wasn't even a corner, we were on the left side. Anyway, she says that next time we may want to sit in a different area. I was getting so angry already. Then a nice woman with a cocker pup offered to trade right then and then there. My husband agreed and teh class watched as we had to move our "aggressive" dog to another area, where the nice man with the beagle pulled his chair and beagle farther away from us. She said that dogs that need to be dominant (again, not at all Special as I've explained in previous posts) need their own space. I asked her why she thought he was being aggressive barking and tail wagging and she said that maybe her dog might misunderstand the signal from Special since Special is so fulffy that all the hair might maks the signals. By now I am livid. I was thinkig I wish we lived in Alaska so we could be working with Melanie right now!!

She went on to say that by moving him, he is now getting socialized and that he is a pretty shy dog. Socialized??? (I realize I'm probably taking this way too personally, but it really irked me). Us chow owners work harder than any other group of people at socializing and Special had made friends in the class, he's approached and been approached by everyone in the class without incident. He certainly wasn't aggressing at or growling at any dog or person in that class. Last week, not shy at all, this week shy dog...so which is it?

Everytime she talked baout dominant or aggressive or whatever dogs, she kept looking at us. So I was happy when teh cocker pup went over to her dog and her dog growled at him. I thought maybe now she'd see Special did nothing wrong, but she said that Special had already provoked her dog and that is why her dog acted the way he did. So I told her about how he has only really seriously growled once in his time with us and that with a group of kids in the pet store. They started by pulling on his tail repeatedly and he just took it, but they kept harrassing him (even after we told the kids to stop multiple times) and one little boy waved his arm across Special's face and that was when he growled. I thought maybe she's see just how much he can take without actually ever trying to hurt anyone. No luck...

What makes even angrier is not how she treated us and Special, but how her ignorance (for a trainer especially) is causing the other people in our class to become wary of this sweet, sweet, sweet dark furball.

Most of you know that prior to my joining this site, my only exposure to chows was the horrible negative angle I kept hearing, so for a very long time I would always wonder "oh was that an aggressive thing" or "oh is he trying to be dominant" or "oh my goodness do I dare let him meet other dogs of kids?" My first few posts were all aggression and dominance related. So I would be the first to admit if Special was doing something wrong or if I thought we had even the slightest hint of a behavior problem.

I don't believe in judging a breed as a whole. I've met beagles who will bite and rottweilers who curl up in my lap with their limbs in the air! Just because Special doesn't plant a zillion kisses on my face every minute or because he doesn't curl up in our laps doesn't make any less sweeter than the beagle... or her "bully breed" dog.

All I can say is thank goodness for this site and all the people post here!!!

We're debating whether or not to speak to her about this or whether to just finish out the class defending him every chance we get. Sigh. I just needed to vent about this sad experience.
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Tovya
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Post by Tovya »

I'm so sorry you and Special have to be going through the fallout of breed stereotyping. :( I think that perhaps Special was picking up on this woman's "vibe". I know my Chubaka can "feel" how people think about him.
When I got Chuy 7 1/2 years ago I must admit that I was completely ignorant of the "Chow stigma". If I heard it once I heard it a thousand times how Chows are so "nasty" and "aggressive". I had no idea what they were talking about. My, sweet little furball?! Well, Chuy has proved everyone of his doubters wrong. Never, not once, has he ever so much as bared his teeth at a stranger. He is shy and "spooky" with strangers but if they give him his space he warms to them. Just think of what the average human would do if everyone walked up to them and put hands all over them immediately. Does anyone here agree with me that dogs derserve their own "space" too?
Personally, I hate the idea that its always the dog's fault when they do behave in an aggressive way. In the area in which I live most people have never even heard of socializing dogs. Most people in this area are still of the mindset of "dog as macho status symbol". THAT is the reason for aggressive dogs. Its not a "breed thing" except when they're over and in-bred by idiots. And thats still not the dogs' fault.
Alright, that was my rant for the day. :lol:

Tovya
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Chows are not the whole of our lives but, they make our lives whole.
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sweetpea
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Post by sweetpea »

I hate the sterotyping also. I always feel bad for Gracie when we are on a walk and pass someone with a dog, half the time the dog is even taller than she is, the dogs want to meet each other and the other person will say to their dog "no, that dog will eat you", or "that dog will tear you up". Gracie loves to meet other dogs, I've yet to see her react badly. We take advantage of those who arent fearful of Gracie.

People will go on and on about how mean certain breeds are yet on our walks we often come acrossed a man with some small mix breed, that thing goes nuts, showing his teeth, sounding like he wants to rip us to threads, the man has to hold on tight to keep that dog away from us. Today we walked past a house when two little bulldogs came racing to this little garden fence growling and barking at us like they to would love the chance to rip into us. Yet people will walk out of there way to avoid a dog like a chow. Makes no sense.
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Post by Judy Fox »

Don't worry about it! Just ignore them!
If anybody says anything to me, which does not happen much here as Chows do not seem to have the same reputation here on The Island, I just quip back! :P
I have been known to tell parents who pull their snotty nosed brats away that ".........yes, please, keep the children away, I don't know what my chow chows will catch!!" :twisted:
Cheeky buggars! My Milly and Mabel are beautiful and spotless and some children we meet have snotty noses, their hair looks grubby (cannot imagine what lives in there) and their nappies are hanging down to their knees! Can imagine what is in there!! :evil:
And they have the audacity to pull the child away from M or M. I certainly don't want their grubby little fingers recently pulled out of their noses petting my girls' heads!
So, don't worry - ignore - and wait 'till you meet someone who will appreciate the beautiful Gracie. :lol:

Anyway, purple kisses to all from M & M.
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sixchows
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Post by sixchows »

Why continue with a class that is stressing you? I'm sure Special is picking up on the fact that you are becoming aggitated.
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

Lets see how do I word this, Its sounds to me like she is playing on what people think of Chows and Putting Special in that position no matter how he acts to make herself look good to the other people in the Class so no matter how Special acts she wants to make sure Special appears to be a bad Chow with the bad Chow rep. She keeps looking toward you and Special when she says the word aggressive so the others will think this trainer must be good because she's working with this big bad Chow. Did that make since?

No harm in going back just make sure she's not doing any damage like reprimanding Special for something she doesn't understand about Chows. Make sure she doesn't turn Special into that big bad Chow that's she's trying to make the class think he is.

When I first adopted Pekoe I was passing a trainer in the park, I had heard about this guy all over town because he taught police dogs, I watched him for awhile then when the class ended I went over and ask if there was anything I could do about the cat Chasing, he through a stick on the ground then kicked it around in front of Pekoe. Pekoe kept her eyes on the stick and watched it every time he kicked it so I thought great Pekoe is smart she's watching the stick and paying attention, the guy stopped picked up the stick then said, just as I thought another untrainable Chow, Chows are to mean and temperamental to be trained and are not smart enough to follow commands. Just another trainer showing his ignorance and basically saying he personally can't train Chows because they are to smart for him. Eight years later and I'm still trying to figure out what the stick had to do with anything I ask about cats not a stick, I wish Pekoe did chase sticks but thats way beneath a Chows dignity.
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ngraham
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Post by ngraham »

I know I'd be pretty mad at that so called trainer. If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me "aren't chows mean?", I wouldn't have to work. My response is always, there are no mean chows (or other dogs for that matter) there are just mean, stupid owners. And I truly believe that. I know I have shared this story before, but I'll share it again. My father used to raise siberian huskies and malimutes (which are also on the dangerous breed list) and our dogs were always great, well natured animals. I never knew what a mean dog was. Ours were always wonderful. I didn't know alot about the chow reputation when we got Sasha. So when I got Sasha, my dad called me. We were talking and I mentioned that we had gotten a new puppy. He asked me what kind and I told him a chow and you'd have thought the world was going to come to an end. My twins were only 4 when we got Sasha, and all my dad kept saying was how mean chows were, how dangerous it was to have a chow around the girls as young as they were... blah, blah, blah. Finally after I had listened to him throw a fit for 30 minutes or so, I'd had enough and told him... you are the person who taught me that there are no mean dogs, just bad owners, and now listen to you. He said chows were different and I had 2 little babies to think about and even offered to pay for another puppy for me if I would get rid of Sasha. I told him, thanks but no thanks and that I would rather abide by the lesson he had taught me when I was younger than listen to him now. The last thing he ever said to me about it was that I would be sorry. Well, I had 8 wonderful years with my Sasha girl and never one time regretted my decision to get a chow. I watched Amber and Ashley grow up with her, wrestle with her, lay on her tummy while they layed on the floor and watched tv, share french fries with her and Sasha follow them and watched them while they played in my yard. I saw Amber and Ashley grieve when our girl was gone. What a danger she was... NOTTTT! People can be ignorant when it comes to dogs. And the ones who do the most running at the mouth about chows are the ones who have never owned one or been around one. They go by heresay when they form their opinions. They just know someone who had one.... blah, blah, blah,blah. You would think a professional trainer (especially who owned a bully breed) would know better. But like I said, people are ignorant. That's why I prefer being in the company of my chowdren then most people I know. I can only tell you what I would do if it were me... and being Irish, I tend to have a wee bit of a temper. LOL I would not only confront that trainer, but also continue to sit in her class so that would bug the crap out of her knowing how you feel, and have Special show her just how ignorant she really is. Of course, had it been me, I would have confronted her right then and there... in front of everyone. But that's just me and my nasty little temper. [-X
I was in Petsmart one day with Koda, and a lady walked up to us and asked me if he was a chow (well duh!... I wanted to tell her, why no... can't you tell he is a dachsund?) and she told me she would pet him but she had "heard" how mean chows are and she wasn't going to let him bite her. I politely told her, well you have been very misinformed and I would rather you not pet my chow anyway. She told me again that she would pet him but she just knew he would bite her. I told her again, I would rather you not touch my chow and with the attitude you have, if I were him, I'd bite you too. Then I patted Koda on the head and told him I loved him and off we walked. I also had one of the checkout clerks at Petsmart tell me, I would pet him, but the last time I tried to pet a chow in here, I got bit. I asked her, what did you do to make the chow bite you? She took my money, handed me my change and told me have a nice day! Ignorant people!
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fillyok
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Post by fillyok »

This is just my 2 cents...if I were paying what I imagine you're paying this trainer, I'd definitely have a chat with her. And by chat, I mean a one-way conversation - you talking and her listening. I'm polite, but to the point, when it comes to things like this. I wouldn't pay someone to continuously put down a certain breed of dog, especially mine.
Have you been able to talk with the others in the class? I know you said that some are beginning to shy away due to the trainer's ignorance. I would think that would have a negative affect on Special.
I took Bear to a dog park a couple times, mainly to let him run off leash for a while. I hate having him cooped up all the time. But I had some of the negative attention you're talking about and would rather not subject Bear to that. I take him to Petsmart and other places to keep him socialized. Sometimes I'd swear he was a Collie by the way he acts...he loves people. And now that I have Ping, he has a little buddy to play with all the time. We're moving into a house with a big back yard in June, so things are looking up.
I hope you can talk some sense into your trainer soon. Maybe she needs to take a look at this site...it couldn't hurt, that's for sure.
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Post by IliamnasQuest »

I'm sure sorry to hear you're having problems with your trainer. Unfortunately there ARE a lot of trainers without a true knowledge of spitz breeds overall, and a general misconception of the chow.

I wouldn't call the chow a "bully breed" .. not sure why she's grouping them in together. To me, bully breeds are pitbulls, staffordshires, bulldogs, etc. The chow is a completely different style of dog, both physically and mentally.

I haven't seen you post anything that indicates that Special is not socialized or is shy in any way. He sounds like a pretty nice boy. And for the trainer to excuse her dog's growling at the cocker puppy is just ludicrous!

What you might consider doing is making this your project to show how wonderful your dog (and the chow breed) can be. Rather than give in to this person, continue to go to class and show how Special can shine! Teach him some tricks at home that he can show off at class with (this is always my way of promoting my dogs .. *L*). You can teach him to shake paws and then do a high five - and then move your hand slightly away so he "waves" at your hand for a wave goodbye. You can teach him to roll on his side and play dead. You can teach him to spin circles - a GREAT behavior when a dog has a bit too much energy and needs an outlet! You can teach him to paw at his nose on command (try blowing softly on his face and then rewarding him when he moves his paw up). You can teach him to "bow" - front end down on the ground and butt in the air. All of these things are such great fun behaviors and when people see these things they tend to think the dog is fun and interesting instead of scary.

One of the problems with chows interacting with other breeds is that other breeds sometimes have a hard time reading body language in a dog with an upright stance and a tail that curls against the back. So it takes a dog that is social with other dogs to interact well with a chow much of the time. You might mention that to her - perhaps HER dog needs a bit more socialization with a spitz (not a bully) breed.

And if she starts in on the whole "aggressive" thing again, I would respond to her right there in class. Tell her that you have socialized extensively and that the behavior you've described is a playful and not aggressive behavior in this breed. Tell her that you've discussed your dog with a chow trainer who has had the top chow in AKC obedience two years and whose chows have earned multiple obedience and agility titles - and who also have visited schools and nursing homes - and that this person thinks that Special is doing just fine. You can say all of this in a really nice way .. if you approach it in a "we understand your concern so we discussed this with someone who is very familliar with chows and she indicated that Special is not acting inappropriately" then maybe she'll SHUT UP about it .. *L*

Good luck to you and Special .. glad to see you're working with him but sure sorry that your trainer is giving you a bad time. A good trainer takes each dog as it is, perhaps keeping in mind what it was bred for but not assigning any attitude to a dog unless the dog is actually displaying it.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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ngraham
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Post by ngraham »

I like all of Melanie's suggestions and am very glad she chimmed in. :) I knew as a trainer she would. There are good trainers and bad trainers, and it sounds to me like you got a bad trainer. I'm not a trainer, never claimed to be, but I also know my chow's personalities... well Koda's anyway, Molly we are in a learning process. I don't consider a chow a bully breed or a dangerous breed for that matter. I know I could be wrong, and that is ok. But I just feel if a dog is socialized right, especially if it is around other dogs, like Molly is... they have a great chance to turn out to be at least decent around other dogs, if not great around them. Koda is alot better around other dogs than he is people. Molly being the exception to that. Sounds as if your trainer has a problem with her dog and HIS/HER training. I agree, I would stay in class just to show her up. Special has been through alot and for what he has been through, I think he's doing great. And he has no where to go but up. And I agree, if your trainer starts the aggressive thing again and directs at you and Special, I would definitly confront her about it in front of the class. Melanie's way was alot nicer than mine... so I would follow her way. I tend to get pretty ticky around people who make a chow, not just mine, any chow look bad. I guess I am old enough now where I don't tolerate someone being ignorant very well and I don't have a problem telling them they are being ignorant.
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Post by kingalls »

:evil: Oh, I'm sure you were quite upset! It's evident that the trainer already has her mind made up about Chows. I think Melanie is right - you and Special Dark need to educate this trainer. Now that you know who and what you're dealing with you can have the upper hand versus being shocked by the remarks and references.
Nothing would be better than having Special Dark show her a few tricks of his own :D .
Good luck - I'm sure you guys can do it!
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Post by Auddymay »

Sometimes, I wonder how much training Petsmart trainer's have themselves. When Lily saw her trainer's Great Dane, Lily was a pulling, chuffing fool, but her's was barely under control, and he's 3 years old. Definitely throw Melanie's creds around when Miss Know-it-Some starts treating sweet Special like he isn't the fine, up-standing Chow prince we all know him to be.

I was watching Animal Rescue New York last night, and they had a little black chow that reminded me of Special. He had been left to starve in an apartment out of spite to the owner. They were doing aggression testing, and all he was, was curious. They had a 'crying baby' that they manipulated to simulate a baby kicking it's legs, and he just sniffed it, and tilted his head! They were all hugging him, and he just sat there with the big blue hanging out (and he appeared to like it). He did sit, down, and a good long stay. It even impressed the evaluators. The funniest thing was when they threw a ball and he looked at them like, 'ya gotta be kidding me'. They mentioned 'aloofness' at this point, but were quick to add that it's a chow trait, and that this little guy was definitely not very aloof. They mentioned they had also done entropion surgery, which makes me believe these shows are like the Animal Planet's version of big time wrestling. They put huge amounts of money into medical for these animals.

Anyway, for all our aggression debates, I'd have to believe everyone of our chowdren would exhibit the same behavior as this little guy did, to a wide rannge of degree, of course!
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ngraham
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Post by ngraham »

Gee I'd have liked to have seen that Auddymay. I always look forward to Monday nights on Animal Planet because of all of the rescue shows. I turned it on last night (Monday night) and the Crufts dog show was on. I did watch it, I like the dog shows hoping to see a beautiful chow, but not wanting it to win anything. I was kind of disappointed that the rescue shows weren't on.
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Post by xueshuxin »

Wow this is ridiculous! I mean, to say chows are bully, agressive! What nonsense!

Chows, as a matter of fact, are mostly timid and shy egoists; but they're never, ever, agressive or bully! So funny comments for chows!

Well, I don't know any dog trainer and I can't define whether this lady is good or bad; but at least she doesn't seem to know chows well!

As for the barking, it happens sometimes; when Songsong sees I'm home he'll bark so hard and wag his tail also so hard! It's a sign he wants to speak instead of attack!

You have all my support! and Special too!
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Post by chowfrnd88 »

Thanks so much everyone. Yesterday my husband and I were driving to the mall and I saw a woman walking her two bichon pups. Their tails were wagging furiously and I turned to my husband and said "watch out, their tails are wagging... lock the doors!!"

We will do exactly what Melanie suggested, we'll show her how wonderful he is. He already performs all of the tasks faster than all the other doggies in his class, we'll just add in a few of the great ones Melanie suggested! :D He is just the sweetest, most fun-loving, playful little guy, it's unfair for him and all chows to be punsihed by breed stereotyping. I guess they bully sticks around, right Jeff? :wink:

Sweetpea, we've gotten a lot of that on our walks too. It really is so annoying when people with bigger, scarier dogs try to say how the chow is the mean ones! Judy's right though... we don't want their germs on our chowdren anyhow! :wink: :wink:

I wish we had cable just so we could watch animal planet! Special likes cartoons and movies with dogs. It's the only TV he watches (well, that and Olympic figure skating for some reason!). It's funny that the chow in Animal Rescue New York did nothing but smell and tilt his head, I've always found it interesting that Special will never ever bark at any young children or babies. Not even when they come visit someone in the building. It's interesting beacuse they're strangers too.

I can't wait until our next class to tell her the things Melanie mentioned and show her some of Special's other tricks! :wink:
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