Need help or advice with socialization

Runit · Post by **Runit** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:49 am

Well today was a real break through

. I don’t’ know if Roxie felt me talking about her or what. Today my Uncle came over to give Roxie his birthday gift and Roxie growled at the beginning as usual. As we sat at table drinking coffee and talking she crept under the table and started licking his ankles. He wouldn’t even think to try and pet her but she stayed there in between his legs the whole time. But a soon as he moved to leave she went back to her growling. So, it looks like she is coming around it is just going to take her time.

My Uncle does not come over much but I asked him to stop by more. If this is one person she is going to get closer to I don’t want it to stop now. I will take it one person at a time.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:08 am

The reason I say what I say about breading, training and a Chow is Chow no matter what you do to it, Pekoe came from one of the top breeders in northern Ca, she came with papers of 4 generations back and a few ribbons, I was told she was in shows in her younger years. I'm sure the breeders took every precaution when breeding Pekoe. The first year we had her she went to the groomers once a month and was going to the vet almost once aweek for skin problems she never had a problem, the groomer and vet could do anything they wanted with out any reaction from Pekoe, she was your all American perfect well mannered Chow. As time went by and she settled in with us she became way more protective and developing what most of you would call behavior problems that everyone has been reading about over the years. I have no problem with any of this, actually I like the way she is now then the robot Chow we adopted. So my point is Pekoe had all the proper breeding, training and socialization but being as we didn't have a trainer standing over her 24 hrs aday, us spoiling her and never hearing the word no she reverted back to what some of you call having bad traits and being aggressive from lack of early training and bad breeding. As I say I don't care how much training and socialization you do to a Chow unless its kept up all it's life and everyday of its life in it adults years it will be a Chow. Leery of strangers, devoted and protective of its family and not wanting to be touched by everyone that passes and definantly not wanting everyone approcing it for no reason.

As for show dogs, just because a Chow is in Shows doesn't mean its the perfect Chow when they are at the Nationals or what ever show it is they are only with their owners and trainers and spend most of the time being groomed or caged so may never be socialized with the other dogs. Show dog means nothing except it looks better then the rest of its breed and it can follow its trainer around in a circle with out stopping, Pekoe looks like that every time they take her back to the radiation room, she trots along with her head up, A kodak moment.
So for all of you with puppy Chows that say oh my Little Chow would never do that it gets training. Ok we will see.

Roxie is Leery of strangers, Big deal, theres nothing wrong with her let her be.

Oh and when I say a Chow is a Chow or its a Chow thing I don't mean it in a negative way or the way the general population thinks of a Chow I only say it in what us owners think of Chows, only postive.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:57 am

Again Jeff, you have put it all in a nutshell.

My Milly and Mabel have been well bred - their papers go back and their father is a champion and their litter brother is now a champion! So what!

Milly and Mabel are simply, as far as I am concerned, Milly and Mabel.

As I have said before and offended folk, I do not go along with trainers and showing etc. For those who want to, fair enough, but I want to give my girls a happy, secure and peaceful home that is theirs and where no harm comes to them.

They are with me for life.

I am glad Roxie had a good day Runit - could be you have loosened up about the situation and she has sensed it. So, think positive and just read her body language. It will work out.

and I agree with Jeff, a Chow is a Chow and Chows are aloof with strangers.

By the way, the pictures are beautiful. Rusty looks very happy it is his birthday.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:57 pm

I didn't have the time to really read the long post before I posted but now that I just read them. It is in the way you look at things. I consider aggression to be when a Chow (dog) goes out of its way to attack for no apparent reason, no one has ever posted that their Chow actually attacked someone, The post that we have read or the stories in the news about Chows biting I can guarantee that Chow was pushed way beyond its reaction limits and had no other choice, I don't consider growling, hiding and a reaction to a stranger approaching as aggressive behavior to me its a warning and still if the Chow is approached it will run and hide to avoid any confrontation. to make a comment like "reactive chows are cheered on here for their attitude" has got to be one of the most ridicules statements I have read, are you taking drugs instead of supplements? as long as you have been on this site I can't believe you would say something like that. If a person can't except the fact that Chows do have some minor behavior issues because they are Chows then go adopt a golden retriever you won't have to try and change them. you have a natural lap dog. Just because someone post that their Chow growled or sneezed doesn't mean they have a sick disturbed or wild uncontrollable beast on their hands so they should either kill it, feed it supplements or take it down for physiological testing. Chows are and have always been GUARD DOGS except it.

It seems to me from reading past post over the years that the people with the least problems are the ones that have gone out of their way to learn the breed and just let thir Chows be Chows and let their Chows know when they are going to far. They aren't trying to change them or are in a contest to see who has the best behaved Chow, they know what they have and they except it, None of these Chows are bad Chows or have behavioral problems the only problems we have are that our Chows are spoiled and get away with alot so I guess to some this would be terrible behavior. There's a big difference in loving our Chows and letting them be what they are then all of us on here praising reactive and aggressive behavior. All the stories that I have read over the years, Mr. N at the vet, Pumpkin and her antics and many of the others doesn't sound to me like we are praising the behavior it sounds to me like alot love and understanding of the Chow breed.

ag·gres·sion
NOUN:

The act of initiating hostilities or invasion.
The practice or habit of launching attacks.
Hostile or destructive behavior or actions

Haven't yet to ever read about a Chow showing any of those traits.

TigerTiger · Post by **TigerTiger** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:00 pm

Bravo!!!!!! Jeff.....

You said it all!

Tiger would like to give your special kisses and licks!!!

Post by **kingalls** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:25 pm

I agree with you Jeff. I think that Pekoe is a prime example of what you were talking about. If she continued the life of a show dog, she would behave as a trained Chow - heel, stop, turn etc just as is expected of a trained Chow. Did that, done that...Now she is enjoying her life with you and understands when she's not behaving when you tell her to knock it off. You and Pekoe worked things out - sure she might get grumpy when she gets attitude from the vet or groomer, etc. but is fine with the ones that don't.
I do think that those that need a Chow that is accepting of everyone should invest in time and classes to help achieve that behavior.
Mr. N is less accepting of strangers and is more vocal - Shiloh just bounces around and encourages Mr. N. We deal with it by keeping them out on the deck until the visit is over. Are they behaving badly? Well, they instinctively want to protect their family - I don't have a problem with that and won't reprimand them other than to say Quiet!
Visits with the vet are minimal and we just deal with each situation.
We have regular visits with Mr. N's groomer. We went to the groomers yesterday. Mr. N hates the muzzle so I asked her if we could try something different. Instead of putting on the muzzle while I have him in the car, I put him on the leash and walked him into the room and got him up on the table. His tail was wagging. I put the muzzle on - he didn't fuss. The only time he gets upset is when she does trys to comb his front area. That's when I take over. When we're done, off with the muzzle and walk him out to the car on his leash. He's not aggressive in my opinion. I think that for those that prefer the more trained behavior - this would not be acceptable.
We are all different and have different expectations of our Chows.

Karen

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:52 pm

Jeff, I'm well aware I will not change your mind about your dog. You are comfortable in thinking that you can excuse certain behaviors by saying "oh, it's typical Chow behavior" and since that's YOUR comfort zone, you don't like someone saying anything else.

You're talking a lot about Chows as a whole but I gather your experience with the breed is very limited.

The Chow was used as a guard dog at times, yes, but they were also a very versatile breed that was used as a herding dog, a hunting dog, to pull sleds and to pack. This breed has a rich heritage of being a dog that provided a number of services to mankind, and guarding was just one of many. Throughout the years, the Chow has had to be handled by and to work with people and a dog with a poor temperament way back when would probably have been eaten instead of kept in the breeding pool (I know that's graphic, but our ancient ancestors didn't have much use for animals that couldn't do what was needed). So to keep saying "the Chow was a guard dog" and using that as an excuse for poor behavior just doesn't sit with me.

You said straight out that you spoiled your dog and you never told her "no" - that will let almost ANY breed of dog turn into a dominant, sometimes dangerous problem. I've seen a household dominated by a little shih-tzu because the people didn't know how to set down the proper rules. I've seen bite wounds on people from dozens of dogs that were allowed to rule the house because the people didn't understand that making a dog follow some basic rules of behavior was not a bad thing. Having a reactive dog puts you and everyone around you in a dangerous position, and it's a huge mistake to allow that to happen. As a trainer, I get to deal with the people who come to me in tears saying "I think I may have to put down my dog because now it's growling at me and my husband and snapping at the kids". And in nearly all of those situations, that could have been avoided by setting reasonable rules and making the dog mind them. You have chosen not to do that, I think.

I agree with you that being a show dog doesn't mean that it's a perfect chow. I didn't insinuate that it did. What I was saying that in my interactions with all those dogs (and they were on leash and wandering around through the crowd, getting ready to enter the ring) I never saw a single aggressive action. Not even a simple growl or lifting of the lip. They didn't always approach me to be petted, but I did touch many and they accepted it with the grace and dignity that a good chow should.

QUOTE: "The post that we have read or the stories in the news about Chows biting I can guarantee that Chow was pushed way beyond its reaction limits and had no other choice, I don't consider growling, hiding and a reaction to a stranger approaching as aggressive behavior".

I have a newspaper clipping here about a chow who attacked and killed a baby. I can guarantee that the baby did not push the chow into that reaction. Excusing a bite by saying the dog was pushed into it is counter-productive to the welfare of our breed. A normal dog - and this INCLUDES the chow - should be able to handle a certain level of stress before it reacts with a bite. A dog should not bite just because someone approaches them, or reaches for them. In normal circumstances, approaching and reaching for a dog is not a threatening behavior and a dog should realize and accept that. Just because a chow is aloof doesn't mean that it shouldn't handle normal interactions with humans. To say otherwise is to say that we have a dangerous breed, and that's just NOT true.

I can guarantee you that anyone, under normal circumstances, can reach for, touch and handle any of my chows and they will not bite, growl or act aggressive. They may not like it and they may lean away, but they not only have good solid temperaments but have been taught that accepting these things is the proper thing to do. As a chow owner, it's my responsibility to teach them that.

QUOTE: "It seems to me from reading past post over the years that the people with the least problems are the ones that have gone out of their way to learn the breed and just let thir Chows be Chows and let their Chows know when they are going to far."

People who are excusing their behavior by saying "oh, it's typical chow" have learned nothing about the breed. Like I've already said, the chow temperament should be solid and not reactive. Being aloof is fine, growling and refusing to let people touch it is beyond aloof and beyond acceptable for the breed. There should be no excuse for bad behavior, and certainly not that it's okay because the dog is a chow - how terrible to say that and let the general public think that! It's SO detrimental to our breed and it scares me that people post that on a public forum where anyone can read it.

I've studied dog behavior extensively and particularly the chow, as I have lived with one for more than 14 years now and have worked within the intelligence and personality of the breed. To train my dogs to the level they're trained takes a lot of understanding of the natural independence of the breed.

QUOTE: "None of these Chows are bad Chows or have behavioral problems the only problems we have are that our Chows are spoiled and get away with alot".

And this is the crux of the problem, I'm sure. It's likely that any dog you have would turn out the same if it had any dominant tendencies. If you were the owner of the shih tzu that I worked with who ruled the household because it was spoiled and allowed to get away with everything, would you also be saying "oh, this is normal for a shih tzu"? I can't understand why anyone would let their dog exhibit poor behavior. If your dog got loose (heaven forbid) and someone tried to catch it because they were afraid it was going to get hit by a car - and your dog bit them - would that be acceptable? If your dog gets really sick and has to stay at the vet's and is stressed, will you be happy because they have to muzzle it most of the time in order to avoid getting bit? I think of these things because I've been in the position of working at the vets and dealing with dogs with no manners, and trying to help stray dogs that are nasty tempered.

There's no REASON for dogs to be nasty. I have five dogs here, three of them chows, and only two of them from truly good backgrounds. I love my dogs 100% and they have wonderful, diverse lives. They get to go all sorts of places with me and they love it. I can trust them, and so they go to the training facility for socialization times, to various family events where they can play with kids and beg treats from everyone, to the nursing home and other places. The chows have learned that interacting with people and being petted is actually a good thing and can result in yummy rewards. If I take my dogs to the vet or to a groomers, they may not like it but they accept it because they have learned that not only do I expect them to behave, but that they will be awarded if they do. This is a good thing, because it means that my dogs are under less stress too.

Everyone will make their own choice in what they want to allow their dogs to do. I'm glad the original poster asked for assistance and I hope that her dog continues to get more comfortable with people. But to give her the advice that it's okay for her dog to act like that because it's a chow is a travesty. That's not helping, that's encouraging the problem - and that's what can make our breed continue to be listed as a dangerous breed.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:54 pm

I think Auddymay said once its not what you read its in how you read it. I may use that as my Quote or A Chow can do no wrong if it does what did you do to couse the problem.

Anyway, I never said I was an expert on Chows nor would I ever own a Shih-tzu, mean little dogs and never stop barking. I am well aware of all the different jobs Chows had, you didn't mention they were killed for their coats for clothing or to this day Chows are on the menus in Chinese restaurants and that the black tongue is considered a delicacy in some cultures or that Chows were used as fierce fighters by the Mongolians, Chows had hundreds of uses but all of this has nothing to do with Roxie the trouble maker, the question was what can I do about Roxie growling at people I wanted this person to know it wasn't a life threatening ordeal she wasn't alone some of the other Chows do it also. So now that she knows her Chow is normal she can work with it and relax. Everytime someone post with the simplest of problems its turned into a major ordeal when its really isn't, My Chow snapped at someone, Oh my kill it, your Chow is aggressive, my Chow scratched itself, Rush it to the vet It could die at any minute. Growling at the uncle or who ever does not make Roxiie a killer nor is it a sign that she is aggressive or not trained properly.

Some day if you ever get a Chance bring your well mannered Chows to LA or San Francisco, Walk them through the City and see how many people can approach them and pet them. I see Chows every day in their homes and on the streets I Haven't yet to meet anyone that owned a Chow that doesn't take precautions or warn people not to approach their Chows. this doesn't mean the Chows are mean or aggressive it means the owners know enough about their Chows that the Chow just doesn't want to be bothered. I do it every day not that I think Pekoe will bite anyone, I just don't want people bothering or touching her and yes Pekoe will Growl at them.

I don't agree with dogs killing babies but just about every breed has done it and humans do it on a daily basis, I don't think I would say its a Chow thing in that situation, its a human thing but again that has nothing to do with Roxie the trouble maker.

It figures that Roxie would be the black female with that whats the problem smile on her face.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:59 pm

Jeff, I have complete confidence that I could take my chows to either of your cities and they would accept people just fine. I've walked them in other large cities, taken them to big events with hundreds of people around and they were calm and accepting as they should be. I've sat on the side of the road at parades with four dogs on-leash and had dozens of people approach and ask to pet them, and the dogs accepted it just fine. I often take my dogs out at the local store and stand near the door, so that they get used to people walking by and carts rattling and kids running, etc. If someone wants to approach my dog, I tell them how to do it properly (especially children - they need to learn) and then they are welcome to come up to my dogs. I have no need to be fearful, because I've taught my dogs not to be fearful.

Runit was given some good advice about how to deal with Roxie's problem and I hope that she takes some of it to heart. But telling her that her dog growling is just normal is not right to me. If she doesn't get this figured out now, and Roxie is only two years old - it's probably just going to escalate and get worse. So if we all say "oh, it's okay that she growls, it's normal" and then a year later this growling has escalated to biting - is it still okay or then do you finally give some other advice?

NO ONE said "kill your dog" and NO ONE said it was life threatening! Her dog is exhibiting some behaviors that tell me - as someone who has studied dog behavior for a long time and who has worked with literally thousands of dogs in classes and private consultations - that the dog is uncomfortable, fearful and unsure of how to deal with the situation. And I gave reasonable recommendations based on what Runit posted. I don't think her dog is beyond redemption - far from it. I've had reactive dogs in the past and I was able to successfully change their attitudes. In fact, I got Dora (my now 8 year old chow) when she was 14 months old and she bit me the first time I went to trim her nails. Through consistent household rules, obedience training and kind yet firm handling, she has become a very calm and accepting dog.

I wish Runit the best of luck with Roxie.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:17 pm

I agree with Melanie yet again. Chi-Chings behaviour to me is unacceptable. I am taking every chance I can to get him to accept petting. He has become much better.
While he may always not care for petting from strangers, him allowing it is a must. For the reasons Melanie mentioned.....the vet, if he got loose, etc. I refuse to have my dog muzzled at the groomers or at the vet. If I cannot trust my dog that much, I am doing something wrong. I am lucky to have an awesome groomer who is working with Chi-Ching and also a phenominal vet who works with him also.
I could care less if Chi-Ching wants pet or not, growling is NEVER accepted, he gets a sharp warning when he does that. I would never allow that from ANY dog. He is no different.
Chi-Ching is not scared of people in general, he can walk anywhere and be fine, he just doesn't like to be pet, but I ENCOURAGE people to pet him, not tell people NOT too.....and allowing a dog to growl at humans is totally unacceptable, no matter what the breed or reason. Warning or not. The dog should not give a warning to someone unless he is supposed to(at home guarding or in danger) because someone wants to pet your dog, that is NO reason to give a warning. And everytime you tell someone to not pet them when they are growling, you are enforcing that and telling them it is okay.
I would imagine that Pekoe was very social before and probably never got away with acting rude to anyone. She would have been a great example of the breed. While that statement sounded very bad, I am a FIRM believer that yes, every dog needs training and it should not quit after just the first year. It should continue as far as you can. Even if it is the basic manners.
My goal for Chi-Ching will not ever stop, I want him to allow anyone to pet him and I also want him to go into obedience trials. I want to show him off as what a good chow really is. I HATE that because of an evaluator, I have this 'do not touch me' dog. That is not in my mind a good chow. Why would anyone ever get a dog that was scared or aggressive(okay, not aggressive, they just like to growl at everyone - that is better) How is that considered a good representation of the breed?
I think that people are trying to make excuses for why they have neglected certain important training and now have a dog that is aggressive(there is that word again) dog. It is sad to me really.
I love Chi-Ching very much, but I will never accept that it is "just a chow thing" that he doesn't like pet. I have worked with chows for a long time, I have taken in "normal chow behaviour" chows and helped them socialize enough to find them good homes.
Jeff, if something ever happened to you(god forbid)......and your dog ended up being put in a shelter(for whatever reason). Do you think your dog would pass the temperment test to find a new home?
I would MUCH rather have a "trained chow" then a chow who could not survive without me.

Post by **Auddymay** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:18 pm

Reactive...aggressive...protective...afraid. She growls because...wait. Was that a growl? Or a chuff? Our Chows have many degrees of tolerance, as does the owners of said Chows. Personally, I prefer it if Lily doesn't REACT to every little movement she sees. Do I correct, or try and retrain the behavior? SOMETIMES. Do I think she is aggressive? Not at all to people. I'm uncertain if she would fight with another dog because ever time she sees one, she is on a lead, and her reations are different. She had a chance on Pip's Birthday to nail a chihuahua and all she did is nose it. I have no worries about her biting. Her barking and all the other vocalizations come from a much different context than Roxie does with hers.

Praising reactive behavior? Since much of the time her reactions are what I actually expect, I guess I am in effect, encouraging. Guilty as charged. But I must say, she was a tot when I joined the forum...I wasn't gravitating to type, as was alluded to. Unless you mean chow lovers...

Chowlover and Mandy both said growling isn't allowed. That's easy to say if your chows aren't very vocal to begin with. I'm not sure where grumbling ends and growling begins. I have never heard Lily growl in the conventional sense of a dog growling for warning. Could be we are calling one sound by 2 labels... As for tolerating petting goes- yes, I can make her let anyone pet her. Should she be made to be subjected to it for my fancy? I think not. If I wanted a Golden, I would have got one. Don't believe all of Chingers behavior comes from one incident with that evaluator. I would find it hard to believe the one event created PSD. I've read somewhere that Chows are naturally aloof...that may be what you are seeing.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:18 pm

I don't know why Pekoe always has to be used as the example when 90 % of this site just posted their Chows growl at people when approached or are leery of strangers. And no I don't think any Chow no matter what the training when separated from its home and family would ever pass that meaningless temperament test, That's like saying I trained Chi-Ching so well she could care less who he lives with and would never miss me. If I left him for what ever reason she would just go on to the next family with no problems. That's not a Chow that's a dog, Sorry but that's not in the typical Chows nature to do that. Home and family are the two most important things to a Chow. That would be a great piece of training, I turned a family member, a loyal, protective, loving Chow into a dog that could care less who it lived with, nice job. I don't know what shelter you work at but every shelter I know of have a terrible time rehoming Chows because they miss their owners and home so much, most just kill them as soon as they walk through the door so they don't have to deal with it and why is it that most rescuers have to work with the Chows before they rehome them, its not a training thing its a loyalty to its previous owner thing. But its is nice to know that there is at least 4 properly trained chows on this site, 4 out of 20+ not bad.

If anyone ever gets the flu and its raining all day so you have nothing to do like me today just disagree with what is considered proper chow behavior and you will have a whole day of friendly Chit-Chat.

Post by **Auddymay** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:35 pm

I don't hold Pekoe out as an example of anything but a free spirit.

I think it might be because you are very outspoken in your beliefs about Chows, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. But it tends to bring opposing view points out of the woodwork, and as your owner...I mean, as your Chow poor Peks gets dragged in by association.

I would hope none of us is so closed off that we can't see other's points of view. I personally try and respect other peoples opinions, even if I don't agree with all that they are saying. It is something to strive for, in any case.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:36 pm

I never said that you should have a dog that does not care who it lives with, but you should have a dog that CAN handle it if that situation should arise. Depressed, understandable, grieving, understandable, agressive....no.

I do attribute about 90% of chi-chings shyness to being pet by strangers to that one incident. The other part, chow aloofness. He backs away. If I 'made' him, yes he would tolerate it, I am trying to train chingers to actually like it. He loves to be pet. He craves it here at home. We get kisses and loves all the time. I do not expect him nor want him to act like that to everyone, but I will NEVER tolerate a dog growling for any reason other then self defense or protection.

I think it is sad that you live in an area that is hard to adopt chows out. We actually get alot of chows in in our area. And MOST are independant but still friendly and do not mind being pet. We put down more lab mixes and gsd mixes then anything in my area. Chows generally get adopted rather quickly here, any hard to adopt ones we work on(We had a foster here for a while who did not like men.....or cats.......he spent a few months here and eventually moved in to a home with no cats but he loved the man and the wife and the child.) I believe 100% that any dog can be taught how to behave and I think that is the part of the owner. If you do not teach them proper behavior, then you are doing a disjustice to the breed, as well as your own dog. Whether your dog gets to rule the roost at home(bad idea in my opinion) that doesn't matter, but when that dog goes into the general public, it needs to be a SAFE dog. Growling at anyone is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. That is NOT a good behavior. That is a dog that is a liability issue in my opinion.

Chows have a bad enough name as it is.....why would you encourage a behaviour that would only make people think less of them?

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:57 pm

Are you trying to say Pekoe is guilty by association? Poor Pekoe and her only concern in life is keeping the city parks and streets free of Cats and squirrels..

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:00 pm

QUOTE: "Home and family are the two most important things to a Chow. "

Home and family are the two most important things to nearly ALL dogs.

I know that many Chow people want to believe that their dogs are not dogs, that they carry this mystical title of "CHOW" and that means that they're more special than any other breed. Funny thing is, you can find other dog owners who believe the same about their own chosen breed. The fact is, a dog is a dog and they all carry certain dog traits that are the same from breed to breed. The aloofness of the Chow is not exclusive to the Chow - it's found in many other breeds. The independent nature is common in nearly all spitz breeds and indeed many other breeds too. There are a combination of characteristics that lead us into loving this particular breed, but I certainly have enough intelligence and common sense to not think that the Chow is anything but a dog.

Chows that are admitted to animal shelters are often destroyed because the typical public idea of a Chow is that they are MEAN and NASTY dogs. This concept is propagated by each and every Chow that growls, lunges or otherwise acts in an inappropriate manner towards people. These Chows at shelters are not destroyed because they have such a hard time re-adjusting to a home. Chows don't have any harder of a time than any other dog which is why so many successfully take in adult Chows and are still able to bond with them. A dog with a nice solid temperament can adjust to a new household with a minimal amount of stress. The problem is that too many people let their Chows act in dominant ways which sets them up to think they have the right to act dominant - and therefore if they ever DO end up in a shelter, the likelihood is that they will be deemed "non-adoptable" and then killed.

As socialized as my dogs are, I would challenge anyone to try to come into my home uninvited. Just because my dogs accept my leadership and don't feel the need to be in a constant state of alert, it doesn't mean that they won't also protect. Protection is a natural instinct in our dogs. But on a day-to-day basis it's our job as pack leaders (and the humans should ALWAYS be the pack leaders) to take away the dog's concern over people within the home and people they meet outside the home. If I accept it (as pack leader) then they should too - and they do, and they're happy to do so.

I know, from reading some of the post in this thread, that there are different definitions to some of the words and that causes some confusion. I see growling as an unacceptable behavior for the most part, but if someone comes to my door and the dogs growl, that's not a bad thing. I simply tell them "it's okay" and they are to stop because I have taken over as the leader. What would be completely unacceptable is for them to growl at a non-threatening person within my home, or someone that I have allowed to approach us outside. And a lunge or a bite would only happen if someone was completely threatening - let's say someone charged at me holding a stick up like they were going to hurt me. YES, I would expect my dogs to get upset at that and to protect me. But under normal circumstances, a Chow should not feel threatened by a person in their home (who their owner allowed in), a person walking by on the street, etc.

I absolutely love this breed, and I will have Chows until I die. And because of that, I am an ambassador for the Chow and I feel it's important for people to understand that misbehaving is NOT a Chow trait, it's something the humans in the household are allowing and it's a detriment to the breed overall. If we let people think that growling and other anti-social behaviors are normal Chow behavior, we are doing the entire breed a huge disservice.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:15 pm

Runit wrote:My question is if there is anything that I can do to help break her of this. Have I waited to long?

My family and I have almost 30 years experience with chows, just chows, no show chows, just chows... family chows. My approach in training is rather out of the box. The oldies on the site are familiar with my unorthodoxed ways, and I truly have two exceptional chows. The newbies, please chill, I truly have two exceptional chows. That being said, in Roxie's case, I don't believe you mentioned if she ever acted aggressively towards visitors so perhaps the growling in the corner of the room when you have visitors over is her expressing, verbally expressing, her displeasure of visitors scrutinizing your time (i.e. Roxie: "Harumph, you come to visit my mom but mom didn't tell me, so you can't stay too long. Did you hear me? I mean it. Mom has to take us out for a walk and why are you still here. Look at you laughing with Mom, you didn't even think of bringing me a treat did you. I didn't hear you say how pretty I am. So rude. Don't you think it's time to go home...etc..etc.."). Also, as some have mentioned, try having visitors offer Roxie a small biscuit when they come in, say "Good girl, okay bye". But only if Roxie approaches them.

Also, have you ever noticed how or if she and her brother (I'm sorry I forget this name right now) whisper in each other's ear when they communicate? If so, you may want to try a little whispering in her ear from time to time. Stuff like, you are so pretty... thanks for being a good girl when Uncle came over... so and so is coming over for lunch, I want you to be nice, okay... why are you an antisosch? Everyone thinks you are so beautiful. Build up her self esteem a bit. I do that to my two and it's amazing how they respond. Along with the whispering, I do talk to my two alot. When Zhu was younger, and he got in trouble, he had to go to his corner and I would say "go to your corner and do not leave your corner until you've thought about it". Of course, the last part of what I said was more for my amusement, but darn if he didn't abide. I adopted Pooh Bear from the humane society two years ago, a senior dog, didn't know what to expect. Trained her to live with us, by talking. She got in major trouble last week by having an oppossum in her mouth at midnight. I lectured and lectured her to tears (literally) on how that was just not acceptable. There are still critters roaming in the night in our backyard (I know because of our neighbors dogs), yet PB no longer has interest in all that. Do they understand what I'm saying literally? Who knows. What I do know is that their future actions appear very thought out. Chows are very bright and they are very individual and unique. Whisper and chit chat a storm with Roxie, and see how she responds. Use different tones. Personally, I don't have a problem with my chows going between my legs (like Roxie seems to do). I actually find that action very wise of the chows because I have more control of them. Others will argue otherwise, thinking it is a nervous or insecure gesture. But for my size and stature, it has always given me very good balance and control with my chows. When we are at the vets and they have to get an injection, my chows usually turn around and put their heads between my legs (I'm usually sitting). The vet loves this because it makes administering the meds quicker and easier for them, plus no need to use a muzzle.

Good luck, Runit. No. You haven't waitted too long. Just need to find out more on how Roxie ticks.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:17 pm

Sorry but not only do i disagree that a Chow is just another dog, Apperantly ChowChow welfare disagrees also.

Chows make exceptional house pets. Despite their size (17-21" at the shoulder, 45-85 pounds), they are very quiet, naturally well-behaved, not diggers or barkers and aren't destructive. They're one of the easiest breeds to housebreak. Chows do, however, have a very different personality than other dogs. They are cat-like in their attitudes: aloof, reserved with affection, independent, dignified and stubborn. Although their soft fur is ripe for hugging, they don't always enjoy being fussed over by children or strangers. For people who want a cuddly lap dog that will instantly love all their friends, the Chow is likely to be a disappointment.

The Chow Chow is very intelligent but not always easy to train. They don't have the strong desire to please their masters as do breeds like the Golden Retriever. They seem to please themselves first and don't respond to the average methods of training and motivation. They do not tolerate physical punishment and can't be forced into anything. Hitting or beating a Chow will either result in viciousness or a broken spirit. Like a cat, a Chow is only willing to do what suits his mood at the time. He's an independent thinker and will make his own decisions if you don't stay a step ahead of
him! The Chow is a powerful, regal, beautiful animal and he knows it. He expects to be treated with dignity and respect respect that he will return if you show you're worthy of it.

From this description, I think you can see that the Chow Chow is not a breed for everyone. Its temperament is often misunderstood and many people mistakenly believe that Chows are vicious dogs. This breed is naturally suspicious of strangers and very territorial. They take their homes and family very seriously as well as their responsibility to protect what they love. On his own property and especially without his owner present, the Chow can appear to be quite fierce. He will seldom let a stranger pass unchallenged. People used to the warm welcomes of other breeds are
unprepared for the seriousness of the Chow; guests must be greeted by the owners before the dog accepts them.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:28 pm

Actually that helps prove my point, Jeff. Chow welfare not only refers to them as dogs (numerous times) but they go on to say that the Chow will make his own decisions if you don't stay a step ahead of him.

If you check out other areas on their site, they also say:

"The Chow Chow is a highly intelligent dog and values his independence. He can be hugged and played with. He can even be corrected - often by a tone of voice, but he should never be allowed to dominate the household. He is usually amenable to being touched by strangers if he is introduced by one of his owners and approached properly. Quiet, refined, he should not be teased or treated as a lap dog. His dignity and aloofness must never be confused with a fierce or intractable temperament. He minds his own business and does not generally initiate trouble. Bad-tempered Chows are not representative of the breed, but are usually the result of indiscriminate breeding and a woeful lack of "socialization"."

"Because some Chows are independent and because some Chows may wish to attach themselves to one person or to one immediate family, the Chow should be "socialized" so that he is completely amenable to being handled by strangers."

You may also want to check out the page on A Lesson In Becoming An Alpha, which explains exactly how to put your dog in the proper place in the family pack. You can find it at http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/alpha.htm . Vicki DeGruy gives some excellent advice on how to become the pack leader.

For anyone not familiar with the Chow Welfare site, it's at http://www.chowwelfare.com/ .. I see that some of the links are down and I'm not sure if they're fixing that or not, but they do give excellent advice on the handling, training and socialization of the breed.

Yes, the Chow has some relatively unique qualities, but they are not alone in those qualities - and certainly they don't put the Chow in a category other than "dog". And I don't use the word "dog" in a derogatory way - I absolutely LOVE dogs and much prefer them over people most of the time .. *L* ... but to say that the Chow is not a dog and therefore doesn't have to follow normal dog rules is allowing our Chows to act in ways that are detrimental to the well-being of the breed.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:57 pm

well it proved my point also, so I guess all our points have been proven, you have your Dogs and I have my Chow. I will always own Chows you will Always own dogs. As far as i'm concerned there is nothing wrong with Roxie, she's a Chow,. A Chow to me A dog to you, No more can be said.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:36 am

*ROTFL*

Yes, I will always have dogs that happen to be chows .. chows that are confident, socialized members of society .. chows that can go to the vets, groomers, training classes, walks in the park etc. without feeling fear or trepidation because someone approaches them .. chows that are secure in knowing that I will provide a strong, kind, loving leadership and not leave it up to them to be so uncertain about where they belong in the pack that they have to react to such a simple thing as a person allowed in their home ..

.. and you will continue to have chows that are miserable every time someone comes around .. who hate the vet and the groomer .. and who are not safe dogs for a normal non-threatening stranger to pet.

I'll take my version anyday.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

ngraham · Post by **ngraham** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:33 am

Well, after waking this morning and reading the recent posts on aggression, training, chows, and dogs... again, all I can say is, again, you have to love discussion forums.

Aggressive chows? I can't say that I have had one... I didn't in Sasha, nor do I feel I have an aggressive chow in Koda. 5 instances of aggression in 8 years with Sasha, did not make her an aggressive chow. In 3 of the 4 times she tried to snap at someone I feel it was warranted... what would your chows have done had a vet been very rough removing stitches out of it's sore tummy (she was muzzled for the remainder of the stitch removal and the ONLY time she ever had to be muzzled), or if a bunch of strangers (firemen) were running in and out of your house while it's owner was next door crying and the chow couldn't get to the owner, or if an over active 5 year old snuck up behind them trying to take food away from the chow. The way I look at it is, she just as easily coulld have bit instead of snapped. The one time I felt it wasn't acceptable was when she snapped at my granddaughter while she was feeding her french fries. That was a situation that I dealt with and worked to try to make not happen again. The one time she did bite, was my ex-husband and he should have known better than to walk in my door, unannounced and start screaming and waving his arms. I was never, ever apprehensive about having people in my home with Sasha, nor am I now with Koda. He does bark when someone he doesn't know walks in, and like poor Pekoe, is told to knock it off. And altho he does not want people petting him, he is friendly around strangers.
I guess in all reality, I agree with Jeff. Right or wrong, I took on the responsibility to love and nuture Koda, this is his home and I feel he has a right to have his space if he feels he needs it. I just flat out refuse to hold the boy down and make him let people pet him. I don't know why or what has happened to make him fearful of people, but I feel as his owner, it is up to me to keep him happy and unafraid. And if asking people not to pet him, let him come to you if he wants to be pet, is wrong, then so be it. But eventually, if left alone to do it in his time, he will go up for a quick pat on the head. If I had wanted a dog that allowed anyone and everyone to come up and pet him or do what they wanted to him, I have gotten a golden or we have Sam, who will let anyone pet him and makes a nuisance of himself to get people to pet him.
Growling will never, ever be tolerated. It wasn't with Sasha, nor will it be if and when Koda starts to growl. But there is a difference in growling, being aggressive and just wanting it's own space and to be allowed to be friendly in his own way. All of you who do obedience training, that's great. We all have different expectations of our chows. And I know obedience and obedience training is important to Melanie and her gang and to Chowlover and Chingers. But those of us who are content to just have a chow as a companion, should not be ill thought of or made to feel like we are doing an injustice to our chows or the breed in general. Sasha was a great representative of the breed and so will Koda be. Never should aggression be tolerated, but just because a chow does not prefer to be pet by everyone they meet, it doesn'tmake them a bad representative of the breed. Sure, I agree, it's great when they can be pet by anyone, but it doesn't make them bad if they aren't. Koda doesn't always get his way and he is told NO when he does something he shouldn't. But I just don't feel that the fact that he shys away from people makes him a bad ambassador of the breed.

TigerTiger · Post by **TigerTiger** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:50 am

" would hope none of us is so closed off that we can't see other's points of view. I personally try and respect other peoples opinions, even if I don't agree with all that they are saying. It is something to strive for, in any case."

Auddymay, very good point.

Jeff, Auddymay and Judy, they pretty much posted whatever oppinion I have in this topic. Just would like to add one thing.

When we don't emphasis how much experience we have in regards to chows or train dogs in general, does not mean we do not have any. Personally, I have almost 30 years experience in living with Chows -- from the time that I were 6 years old. And I have over 10 years experience in training trouble dogs with SPCA (San Francisco) and Humane Society (Toronto). So we all know what we are talking about in regards to our chows.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:24 am

".......guests must be greeted by the owners before the dog accepts them."

as quoted from Jeff's post. When we were researching the breed before we brought Milly home, we must have spoken or corresponded to almost every breeder on The Island and they all told us the same things. And this was one of the things they told us. If you invite someone into your home,a chow will take a look and then clear off until the person leaves at which point the chow chow will reappear to see the visitor off the premises. And this is exactly what Milly and Mabel do. They like some people and they don't bother others at all. They have never actively growled at anybody but this is where maybe, and this of course is a maybe, Runit may calling the noises Roxie makes as growls. What we were told by the breeders here was, they will accept someone if we invite them in but God help anyone if they come in uninvited!

Milly and Mabel have a whole vocabulary of noises - snuffs, huffs, grunts snorts, harumphs, aaahs and so on. You will all know what I mean!!

Only this morning, when we were out walking M & M, somebody stopped to speak to us and Milly gave one of her snorts and I took particular notice and it could indeed have passed for a growl but knowling M.Ching as I do, I knew it was a snort.

In the past they have grunted and snuffed at children who have stopped to pet them and the children have pulled away thinking they were growling.

However, I still maintain that chow is chow is chow and is not dog. They can be trained and when I say I do not agree with training, I mean formal training and being trained to do tricks for a show ring.

M & M have never been ' trained ' in that way but they are trained to my standards and I consider my standards are second to none.

I will not tolerate bad behaviour from M & M - indeed I don't get bad behaviour from M & M. But, they are the naughtiest girls in the world and get up to all sorts of mischief. They will "Hush!" when I tell them. They stop doing what they are doing if I say "No!". They walk beautifully on their leashes. They sit, shake hands, they go to bed when I tell them, they go out to spend a penny when I tell them, they come in when I tell them. In fact they know everything I say to them and on this subject I must agree with Lou. Talking to them is important 'cos they certainly talk to each other.

For example, this morning, Milly was in the garden and Mabel was in the house. I put Mabel's harness on in order to take her for a walk then opened the door and told her to go and tell Milly. She trotted over to Milly who was sun bathing and whispered in her ear at which point Milly got up and ran in and skidded to a halt to get her harness put on.

I have had only 5 years experience with Chows but I have had 63 yrs experience with dogs. I cannot remember never having a dog so I think I can claim experience, knowledge and instinct as far as dogs are concerned and chow chows certainly do not fit into the ' norm ' as far as dogs are concerned.

So, I stand by my comments in my first post on this subject and would urge Runit to sit and ponder the issue, check Roxie's health, don't let it stress her out and try and listen to Roxie's vocabulary!

Good luck Runit and purple kisses to Roxie and Rusty from M & M.

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ngraham · Post by **ngraham** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:55 am

I agree with Judy. I have had dogs the majority of my life, and with the exception of Sam (who is not mine but my daughter's so I leave his training and discipline to her.... she has alot to learn. LOL) all of my dogs have been obedient and a pleasure to have around, not only to me, but to others. I have had many varities of dogs, and then I have had chows. So I don't consider myself clueless when it comes to training or without experience. Yes, chows are classified as a dog, but they are far different from any other dog I have ever owned. Again, I think it all boils down to what each of us expects out of our chows. I am fully content to have Koda as a companion chow... the obedience and agility training mean nothing to me. And as long as he is not growling and biting people, which I wil never tolerate, then he is fine as far as I am concerned. He is allowed to go with me for outings and does fine when he does. He is not aggressive with people in his home. Because I allow him the space he needs to stay comfortable in a setting, any setting, does not make him a bad representative of the breed. He does what is expected of him by me and that's all I ask for. He is well behaved and I have not met anyone who doesn't like him or compliment him... both on his looks and also his behavior. He does well at the vet. If and when the time comes that I take him to a groomer instead of grooming him myself, I don't have a doubt that he will be fine there. This is a discussion forum and we can all agree to disagree. Not everyone is going to do things the same way. But I am done posting on this subject also. I refuse to be made to feel like I am allowing my Koda to misrepresent the breed because I allow him the space he needs to stay comfortable... to keep him from becoming aggressive in the long run. I have found what works well with Kodie and have every intention if doing things that way. If that means telling people to ignore him and allow him to come to them, then so be it. That's all folks!

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Need help or advice with socialization

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