Need help or advice with socialization

Training and behavior topics, guidelines, and tips for Chow Chows.

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Runit
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Post by Runit »

Well Happy Easter to all. :D I must say I have gotten a lot interesting advice from all of you. I guess I should give a little more back ground about Roxie being that her behavior has started a very interesting forum.

Roxie has never acted “aggressively towards anyone. IE.. Snapping, charging, or even acting a if she wanted to go towards tem. Roxie is great at the vets. She doesn’t want to be there but she allows the vet to do all that is needed to her. So talking about Roxie I call that great. As for guest giving her treats. That is a no go they could have a rack of lamb in there hand and thow she really wants it unless they put it down she is not taking it.

Outside she does not act aggressively or what I would call aggressive at all . She just doesn’t want to be bothered. Like I mentioned before I socialize her and continue to do so. We live in the DC area so we are always down at the national mall or at some free concert or event going on in the District. We are regulars at dog parks and I take her to my in-laws house on a regular. When she is at others homes she does not growl she just stays at my side.

But, I do plan to take bits of what allot of you guys are saying and try it out.

Jeff… :D Thank you so much for making feel that I haven’t totally messed my baby girl up. A lot of people I have come in contact with on the streets and at different events have said the same thing you have said to me. Chows do get a bad rep. I have people tell me it is a miracle I can even take them out around people. Then they give me stories of either there past experiences with chows or there friends and how no one could even come near them. Makes me realize Roxie is not as bad off as she could be. :wink:
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Auddymay
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Post by Auddymay »

...Welcome! :oops: ...I'm afraid you got to see us in our glory, and you being new! We tend to get into occasional debates on how to raise our chowdren, but one thing is certain-we all love our Chows and want the best for them. We are passionate about them, so debates can be heated at times. You got some good practical advice, and also got some insight about the range of lifestyles our Chows are living! Good luck with whatever you choose to do from here with her.
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Post by IliamnasQuest »

I fully accept that Jeff has his buddies here and that they will back him up, but that doesn't mean that my posts should be misconstrued just to suit people's own purposes.

I have never said that it's wrong for a chow to be allowed space - and in fact, I have said more than once that it's normal for chows to not necessarily want to go up to strangers and get petted - and that's fine. People are twisting my words for their own agendas and that's just ridiculous.

I've also never said that chows should be worked in obedience and agility - although they can be quite good at both and can find it to be a lot of fun, it's not something I push at people in any way. That's a personal preference. Some people enjoy that, some prefer not. It's certainly not beneath the "dignity" of a chow to work with their owner although some may feel that way. My dogs absolutely enjoy the interaction when we work together, and I feel it builds an even better bond between us. But that's my choice. My dogs are first and foremost my companions and my buddies. If they can't do other activities, it certainly doesn't mean they can't be with me anymore.

What I have said, numerous times, is that a chow should have a solid temperament and not one of aggression. I actually see people now telling stories of how well their chows behave - and THIS is a GOOD thing. Instead of saying things like "chows will be chows" to excuse behavior, I'm seeing people explain how they don't tolerate bad behavior. This is wonderful! I'm very glad to see that.

What I originally disagreed with is the whole concept that the chow's behavior should be excused even when it's growling. The growl is a precursor to potentially dangerous behavior and it should be addressed. Runit was given some excellent advice on how to try to work through that, but instead others are saying "oh, it's okay". That really concerns me, because it won't still be okay if Roxie bit someone - and by growling, she's saying "I'm really uncomfortable with this". Helping her through that makes much more sense than just saying it's normal behavior.

The chow has a bad reputation already, and numerous places in the U.S. have the chow listed as a dangerous breed. Chows have already made it on breed specific legislation in various locations, too. I think we'll all be sorry if this wonderful breed gets banned because bad behavior is tolerated and people who don't know the breed continue to think that the chow is not a trustworthy dog. I know for myself I will keep working to make my chows the best they can be in order to try to show the general public that this is a breed that is not dangerous, not mean or nasty or to be scared of. In today's society, we can NOT afford to have people think that our dogs are mean. If we do, we run the risk of losing the right to have them in our lives.

Everything I have said in this thread is based on my love for the breed. Even when I say that the chow is a dog (and genetically and mentally they ARE) it's done to keep people from thinking that the chow is exempt from the manners that other dogs must have. People who think that their dogs are "above" other dogs put the breed at danger, because they then seem to think that chows don't have to follow the same rules. And, again, that leads towards a dangerous position for our beloved chows.

So do as you want, and believe what you want - I am out there in the public hearing the general consensus of what terrible dogs we have, and doing my best to change that concept because I want to have chows in my life for the rest of my life. And I do it because I absolutely love this breed.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
.. off to visit family .. Khana has a date to play with my 3 year old nephew ..
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Jeff&Peks
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

Just to try and end this, in the beginning she ask about Roxie Growling , I said I don't have any advice for her but my Chow and some of the others also do this, I wasn't saying it was bad or good, I wasn't telling her to do anything with her Chow. All I wanted her to know was she wasn't alone so she wouldn't think there was something wrong with her Chow. It was up to her if she wanted to ignore it, Kill it, feed it supplements, take it in for therapy or take it to Alaska where all the properly trained chows live, that was up to her to do what she wanted, As for its a Chow thing that was actually a Joke because we always say it must be a Chow thing, Quote, its not what you read its how you read it. Now I'm am off to the Park with Pekoe and my 4 yr old grandson and his friends so they can walk Pekoe and chase squirrels together while I sit and watch. Chasing squirrels with the neighborhood kids must be A chow thing sort of like growling at strangers.

I should add, Its not the idea of who is friends with who, no one is ganging up on anyone. we all have one thing in common, our Chow and we all have different opinions on who's right and who's wrong but as long as our Chows have homes and are happy who cares who's right or wrong. We all do everything we can to change peoples opinions of Chows when out walking or what ever. We have had many heated discussions over the years no big deal, we just think to ourselves Dumbass then move on to the next topic. So Melanie don't go getting all upset over nothing, believe me its rare that people agree with me.
Last edited by Jeff&Peks on Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dannyoconnor430
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Post by dannyoconnor430 »

Would like to add - when I have visitors, if my 2 DON'T get to meet people then theres trouble!!! Holly likes it but Max LOVES it. They go nuts, Max just goes mad and then he runs and gets his big hide chew and does his toss and bodyslam thing to show off. For me it comes down to nature/nurture, and you need a good proportion of both. They dont like being messed with outside of the house though, and Max can soemtime be like how you have described (he has a fear of the butchers - must be the only dog in UK!).

Oh and the head to head that is going on - grow up. We can all cut and paste crap from websites and we have probably all read it before. I understand what Jeff is saying - don't over emphasise what is regarded as standard behaviour. And I can understand the other side - you don't have to accept 'standard' behaviour. However the owner has come on here for opinions, with which they can do with whatever they want. Thats their choice as they live with the Chow. Please just PM each other if you want to argue, otherwise please leave your handbags elsewhere.
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Post by Auddymay »

Oh dear, Melanie. Since I was one of those who was vocal, I assume you are referring to me. Let me say, as affiliations go, I am usually disagreeing with Jeff more than agreeing. He can tell you I've rebutted statements he has made in the past. It just happens on this issue, I have sided more with Jeff, in that vocalization isn't necessarily aggression. In fact, I tried to clarify for Tracy why desensitizing would work on a reactive dog. I am of the position that while I respect my Chow's reticence, she is expected to act with manners when we are in public. I've seen her 'growl' at other dogs, and do try and correct her, sometimes with success, other times, it's a stand-off. She's a youngster, but she understands most things, and like most of us, she is a work in progress.

I have read the alpha statement on the link you posted when Lily was a mite. I took the test then, and I repeated it today with the same results. It would seem I am alpha after all. I respect that you are into working with your chows in agility, and I'm glad chowlover and Ching are bonding in class. As long as neither of you is trying to mold your Chows to act in a way that is contrary to their personalities, I say go for it. I hope you have no hard feelings.
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Mandy
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Post by Mandy »

Well I certainly missed some excitement over the weekend. I wanted to make a couple clarifications about my statements and then move on to a couple comments on the whole deal...

When I said that I found growling unacceptable - I was referring to growling at a person. And yes I do feel that growling at a welcome visitor in my home unacceptable. Now if chewie was to growl at the door at someone that he did not know (it hasn't happened yet but I'm sure it will) he would not get the usual strong no... I would make sure to introduce myself to the person and tell him it was okay. I tend to fall in line with many of the views that Melanie expresses but...

What I think about this whole discussion- is that to each their own.

Some of us train our chows, some of us let our chows rule our home, some or us live with our chows, some of us live FOR our chows, some of us set boundries, some of us don't, some of us take our chows for walks, some our chows take us for walks, some of our chows live with children, some of our chows are our children, some of us rescued, some of us bought, some of us breed, some of us show...

But what we all have in common is love we have for our chows and this breed.

Everyone may do things a little different... or maybe a LOT different... but if we have happy loving chows - that's all we can ask for. I respect that everyone does things differently and that I have a lot to learn.

What a great discussion - thank you all for posting and sharing your thoughts. It shows how strongly we all feel about our chows and the breed.
Mandy, Chewie, & Cayenne
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Post by kingalls »

Please!
We are all cyberspace buddies here - there isn't a this camp versus that camp. We all learn from each other - that's what I value in all of these posts. We are all giving of our experience and love of our Chows. Each one of us will read and take advice where it works within our situations.
Thank you - Melanie, Jeff, Mandy, Lou, Judy, Chowlover, and Everyone else that has posted on this topic and every other topic on this site.
It's a great forum and all opinions are respected!

Karen, Shiloh, and Mr. N
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

I was thinking about all this and I guess it all depends on how well you know your Chow and how well your Chow responds to you. Pekoe has been growling at People for eight years but I know for a fact she would never bite anyone, I've had a 4 year old running around and terrorizing the house for 5 months Pekoe growls everytime he gets with in a foot of her all I have to do is say Pekoe knock it off she stops and moves some where else.. I Know my Daughter would never take a chance of anything happening to Conner but we all know Pekoe well enough to know she would never bite or harm him. I tend to base every question about a Chow on what Pekoe would do and just take it for granted that everyone has the same relationship with their Chows that I do with Pekoe that's why I usually take all these Chow problems so lightly and think its no big deal but I know my Chow and I know Pekoe will respond to anything I say I have complete trust and faith in her,.Yes Pekoe is spoiled, she walks me, the world revolves around her but she does know I have limits, even though Pekoe gets away with just about everything she will always look at me first for approval when she's not sure if she should be doing something, I don't know why she wastes her time doing that she gets her way all the time. The Vet and Groomer That's between them and Pekoe they are on their own with that one she either likes them or she doesn't. Growling at People that approach her, No big deal I don't like people touching her anyway but if I say its ok Pekoe she will allow it but I rarely do that. Actually Pekoe will do or allow just about anything if I say its ok Pekoe. Like I said I just take it for granted its like that with every Chow. I've been told many times that Pekoe and I have a strange relationship maybe its true.
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Post by Guest »

I've had a 4 year old running around and terrorizing the house for 5 months Pekoe growls everytime he gets with in a foot of her all I have to do is say Pekoe knock it off she stops and moves some where else.. I Know my Daughter would never take a chance of anything happening to Conner but we all know Pekoe well enough to know she would never bite or harm him.

Has the 4 year old ever gotten past Pekoes limits? A growl is a warning, what if you were not there to tell her to knock it off....do you know how much warning your chow would give? I have said that I do not allow growling except in extreme circumstances.....but under NO circumstances would I ever allow or play off as normal a chow or any dog growling at a child. My dogs would get alot more then a 'knock it off' if they growled at a child for no reason. My dogs are learning that THEY have to move to another spot if they are not happy because of kids or other people or anything, or they can just deal with it. They have their quiet space where the kids(and they have access to tht at all times) cannot go but if they are in 'our' area, they have to behave.
I am not saying that Pekoe WILL bite someone but it is usually the people who say that their dogs would NEVER bite, that end up having dogs that do.
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Post by Victory »

My goodness! I'm going to put my two cents in here and I'll admit that I haven't read all the posts that'll take all week!

I've owned chows for the past...um, 12 or 13 years, (I can't remember exactly), before that I had a pekingnese and a collie, neither of them what you might call "I want to please you breeds" (Forget all that stuff you see on Lassie, the collie is and independent animal that will get you back when he/she is ticked)

Three of my chows were intact males, of them one, LiChi was what I'll call supper assertive, (I think the word agression is over used). Agressision is like Jeff said when the dog initiates the attack, assertiveness is when the dog, (or chow) puts up limits to what it will and will not allow. LiChi was like that, he adored his family, put up with any amount of nonsense from two sets of childern, was very protective and had absolutely no use for strangers, especially strangers on the street. He also would not in anyway submit to anyone, even to the point where he wouldn't drop his gaze from a strange human's, (something a friend pointed out). Now almost everyone would say this was a bad thing and I'd agree except he had one good point to all this, he barked, loudly and agressively. He warned people that he was not to be taken lightly. I liked this about him, he stared down three would be theives who I'm sure had I not been with him, would have attempted to force me to allow them into my apartment building, but since he was standing between me and them staring at them they didn't come any closer than 10 feet. Yes I learned his body language haveing a dog like that it's necessary. Ming and Mingtoy were a little bit different, Ming wasn't as assertive but he was often scared, and he didn't bark, he didn't warn, neither did MingToy, the only warning with both of them was a tensing of their muscles, that's it. These three taught me to pay attention to the subtle hints chows give as to their mood, lessons I've taken to heart.

My current two; Darkwind loves people, most of the time, but if they show fear or agression or they are drunk, stoned or in some other way potential dangers he goes into full protective mode which means he's right in front of me,pushes Firesong to the side and he glares at who ever it is. This is never childern, usually adult males, (sometimes females), in my neighborhood I'm not going to curb his behavior.

Firesong is a different matter she's nervous and wary, in three years I've had her, she's gotten better, she'll actually approach some people if they kneel or squat to her level, and offer their hands lower, she'll approach for petting. but if they stand over her and try to reach she backs away, she doesn't growl or anything, but then I always give her plenty of room to move away if she wants. In the house with visitors she's a ham who demands attention. But when she first came she would back away, it was letting her chose when and who and how to approach that let her feel secure enough to be the little show off she is now.

Like Melanie and Jeff said Chow were bred for many jobs, they are all around dogs. But some lines carry the trait for certain jobs more than others, LiChi was perfectly cubby, almost perfect conformation, he was agile, fast but with enough power and stamina to make his presence known. MingToy, Ming and Firesong are thinner, longer legged, jumbers and escape artists all three of them, hunting is what they did and do best. Darkwind is powerfully built, not very fast, but strong, (it takes five people to extract blood from him and he never growls, snaps or displays any agreesion, he just stands up and moves away.) He can pull something for hours and miles and never tire. But he's not good at jumping on things and rarely does it.

Now before anyone starts talking about limited number of original dogs, yes I know that most of the European, American and Canadian chows come from a small number of original dogs, so they all share a very common ancestry, but their blood lines have been influenced by what they were bred for after that, and some people, especially here in the US bred for guarding and agression. (only six fighting pit-bulls were used to breed the hyper aggressive fighting dogs that have almost taken over that breed today in the US) There really isn't anything called a "typical" chow in temperment or physical ablities. And a lot of it is because people will breed for what they like on top of health, conformation and coloration. I would suspect that Melanie and Jeff would breed for vastly different temperments whereas I'd problably want chows somewhere in between what they'd want.

Frankly I'd perfer it if Darkwind was a little less friendly with people, if I lived in a house with a yard, I'd worry about him being stolen or poisoned because he's too trusting, so I'd actually train him to be less trusting. In the apartment and only on his leash he's okay. It's a shame but I'd do it for his own protection, or have you all forgottent the story just recently of the man who lost his Newfie to theives? No one would take Pekoe, LiChi or sixchow's OJ. They'd have to chase my Firesong to catch her, and they'd probably get bit doing it. It's okay to want your chow or dog to be friendly, but only if you can guarantee that you will be there to protect them from the human predators that see them only as a way to make a dollar or something to torture for the fun of it.

I think Jeff and I have both witnessed a lot of cruelty from humans to animals so we tend to take the animals side of things.

My point is that chows will act different according to their differences, to say that one dog will react just like another if treated just the same is not recognizing that we also react differently, I tread Darkwind and Firesong differently according to their personalities, others may not see it, but I know that I tailor my behavior to how they both are as I did for the three others. Judy has two chows who are full sisters, litter mates yet they have two distinctive personalities and I'll bet Judy and her husband treat them just enough differently that Milly and Mabel can even hear it in their voices.

This is a good thing, this shows that the owner is not just an owner but is aware of what it takes to be a good companion to their animals. We often call them companion animals but we are as much their companions as they are ours.

And this is why we will all have different opininons on how to teach our chows whatever, what we need to remember and stress is that owning an animal, (any type of animal) or care-taking an animal is very much like doing the same for a child, each is different yet the same each of us must tailor our actions and reactions to what we want our pet to do and how they react to our actions. We observe and act, they react and we observe and act again. That's the give and take of it. sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's frustrating, but if you want it easy, go get a pet rock. When you are dealing with something living it's going to be like that. And there will never ever be any "one true way"

you know I really need to write a book.
Victory, Darkwind, (our angel), Firesong, and Dreamdancer
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

Chowlover, Its hard to elaborate on everything I say this topic has turned into a book but Yes Pekoe growls at Conner when he is within a foot of her BUTTTT, Conner has bumped in to her, tripped over her, pushed toys into her, throws stuffed animals at her and when no one was looking he has stuck his face in pekoes face and has said why are you so mean, Pekoe will Growl up to the limit, past the limit then when there is no more limit she will whine and start grunting at him. Conner walks her in the park, gives her treats and sits next to her watching TV, In the park when Conner walks Pekoe he usally has 4 other four and five year olds running around with him and Pekoe. even though I can hear all the kids telling each other don't pet her she's mean at the same time they are yelling at Pekoe there's a squirrel lets get him and off they go. I trust Pekoe 100% Even with the growling, I know alot of People say that but I have had Pekoe in enough situations that if she were going to bite believe me she would have. You also have to remember i'm not dealing with a Chow puppy, Pekoe is a 10 year old Chow that i have had for 8 years i know Pekoes thinking better then my wife's.

If you read my post about Pekoe when Conner first moved in we really had to keep the two of them apart, Pekoe hated him and didn't want him around at all but like everything else with a Chow Time and Patience was all it took. Pekoes growling to me means nothing, again I'm talking about Pekoe not Chows if some of you have different feelings about your Chow Growling at people that's fine then do what you have to do. To me Chows are like Kids, I raised a daughter alone from the age of 6 months, raising a Chow is nothing compared to that.

Victory,I told you years ago you should write a Chow book now you have almost 4 pages of the growling Chow you better get busy.

You know this website needs somesort of chat site but then none of us would probably ever get any sleep so never mind.
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Post by Mandy »

no kidding!! The chat would be the end of me. I spend so much time reading the posts as it is... I don't even want to think about it!
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Agressive Chow

Post by marlamaples »

Hello everybody!!!

Just signed up and so far have to say I have allot of the same problems with my Chow Chow Coby male who is 6 now.

He is very sweet with me but no one can get close to me or he starts to growl and abrk at them in the house or on walks.

This make it very hard to have people over because they have to get past the police first before they come in. I have tried to put him in the garage, but all he does is bark the hole time and I give in and let him out and investigate everyone until everyone is terrified of what he will do.......

I don't want to put him to sleep because he is so precious to me and my hubby very sweet and loving but this behavior is very frustrating.

He is also very dog agressive he lunges and barks at any passing dogs.

Any helpful advice on how to manage this behavior would be great..... I love watching the Dog Whisperer and have been using the pack leader techniques but my chow is very stubborn and will ultimatly try to do what he wants
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

Gee that's an unusual problem with a Chow, Just kidding. My first advice would be to not even think about putting your Chow to sleep, Killing the Chow over this noway. that shouldn't even be in your thoughts Secondly you should go back to the first post on page one of this topic and read every single post if you still can't decide how you can go about handling this problem then maybe start a new post. I think ( have to specify I think) locking him in another room when people are there will make matters worse. Try letting him see who is there, say No to him firmly then say its ok when he quiets down. if he still acts up put him in a safe place where he can see you and the visitors. Keep doing this every time someone knocks at the door or comes in the house just make sure you put him where he can see you, that's the important part, that way he will learn not every body is a threat. Don't rush him off to a locked room every time someone visits. make sure you have a collar that you can hold on to when you open the door, If he growls say NO with a little pull on the collar and keep repeating its ok.. Have you had him/her for 6 years? Is he growling at other dogs when they approch him or is he the insticator? Its probably when the other dog approches him. is this a new problem? getting worse? or has he always been doing this.

Your Chow is going to want to see who is in the house so he will go to everyone sniffing tell everyone just to ignore him, he will go away when he knows everythig is safe and ok. Your Chow is just trying to protect its home and family so don't be to harsh with him.
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Agression

Post by marlamaples »

Thank you for the helpful tips with dealing with strangers but I think it's going to take a while for him to adjust maybe never he is Chow after all and he is going to protect me no matter what.

With the dogs he usually gets irritated by the little yappy dogs this seems to set him off and he instanly gets tight and starts huffing and puffing and starts pulling me like he's going to attack...... I'm not sure if this is his way of being or showing his dominance over me or if he is fearful of other dogs.

He gets along great with the other chow at my parents house they are best of friends but he has bitten other dogs he usually goes for the neck if he gets to close so now I try to keep him under control when we go for walks and we see other dogs.......... He hasn't been in a dog fight for a while but I always get nervous when I see dogs running around off leashes YIKES!!!!!

He is great when we go to the groomers I'm amazed at the report I get " He is an Angel" no problems very submissive and he is great around the other dogs at the groomers so this leads me to believe that when he's with me he feels protective and nothing is going to get in his way of that.
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Post by Jeff&Peks »

Your Chow is an angel at the Groomers and plays with other chows and dogs, What's the problem I should be asking you for advice. My Chow hates anyone with a brush in their hand and has only played with maybe 2 dogs in her life.

We all get nervous with our Chows when we come across an unleashed dog , Don't blame your Chow for other people's ignorance. My Chow doesn't like those little yapper dogs either, there's one next door that my Chow argues with all the time.

You should get out of this topic and go to General Discussions, start a new topic and introduce yourself and your Chow to everyone, You will learn alot from the other Chow owners and from what you just said about your Chow some of us could learn from you.
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